Widdop seeks release

[Old Timer]

You are an interesting person. I see you are absolutely and hopelessly smitten over Gareth Widdop. That's fine. But being smitten over Widdop doesn't mean everyone else is bad. I have seen you being critical of Ben Hunt and Corey Norman in relation to Widdop. They are both Dragons players! They will be well after Widdop is gone.
Then there is your denouncements of Hayne, Benji, McFooknuckle and the entire team except Widdop being to blame for the lack of success over the last 5 years. I'm sure if I dug a little, many more. You tell me. Apart from Widdop, Hunt and Norman, what do you think of other guys on the current team? How about Jack? So far from what we know what he did was worse than what Hayne did morally but legally, he is innocent as far as we know.

After that, shall we get right back on topic? Do you disagree with my characterization of Norman vs Widdop?

You love to dance around issues pointing your finger at everyone and changing the point of discussion.
Please provide the quotes where I have been critical of Norman or Hunt "in relation" to Widdop?
If I am critical of people it is not in relation to anyone but themselves and you are in fact the one person who loves to make unsubstantiated comparisons and when held to account for them you do more shuffling than a croupier at a casino.
Now in a direct football thread you misguidedly bring in moral issues as some form of justification for your position on just about everything.
My position on players and moral issues is well documented so best you do some decent research instead of asking such stupid questions 2 dogs.

 

[RufusRex]

Hunt/Norman/Widdop/McInnes will play every game that they are fit and they will occupy the spine positions.

Mary wouldnt drop Aitken for his shittiness - there is no way that he drops any of that 4 if they are fit.

So DragonJ - get ready to vent every week because Widdop will be there.

 

[DragonJ]

You love to dance around issues pointing your finger at everyone and changing the point of discussion.
Please provide the quotes where I have been critical of Norman or Hunt "in relation" to Widdop?
If I am critical of people it is not in relation to anyone but themselves and you are in fact the one person who loves to make unsubstantiated comparisons and when held to account for them you do more shuffling than a croupier at a casino.
Now in a direct football thread you misguidedly bring in moral issues as some form of justification for your position on just about everything.
My position on players and moral issues is well documented so best you do some decent research instead of asking such stupid questions 2 dogs.

Before I provide the quotes, can you just tell me? Save the trouble? Apart from Widdop what do you think of other team members? I know you are down on Norman and he hasn't even played a game for us yet.

Oh, so now you are a moral authority? Who made you this moral authority? Are you neagtive on Norman because of his ability as a RL player or because of what you see are his "moral failings"?

Do you agree or disagree with my characterization of Norman at 5/8 vs Widdop? No moral issues involved at all.

Hunt/Norman/Widdop/McInnes will play every game that they are fit and they will occupy the spine positions.

Mary wouldnt drop Aitken for his shittiness - there is no way that he drops any of that 4 if they are fit.

So DragonJ - get ready to vent every week because Widdop will be there.

Fantastic! I have been consistent. Widdop will do well at fullback without having to worry about playmaking, which he sucks really badly at. Norman I think, based on what I have seen of him, is going to be a tremendous signing and playmaker, and quite possibly bring a lot of success to the team.

 

[Old Timer]

Before I provide the quotes, can you just tell me? Save the trouble? Apart from Widdop what do you think of other team members? I know you are down on Norman and he hasn't even played a game for us yet.

Oh, so now you are a moral authority? Who made you this moral authority? Are you neagtive on Norman because of his ability as a RL player or because of what you see are his "moral failings"?

Do you agree or disagree with my characterization of Norman at 5/8 vs Widdop? No moral issues involved at all.

So you are looking for Norman to be the playmaker and you believe that the couple of games against us is evidence enough for you to believe that not only will he do that well IYO he will also be much better than Widdop.
Perhaps you might like to consider the following thoughts and statistics?
Since debuting in 2010 the clubs Corey Norman has played for have Won 97 games Lost 108 games and drawn 1 game.
Fair to say he didn't play all games but at best it is less than a 50% win ratio.
IMO it would be fair to judge a "playmaker" on the games that the teams win or lose by a margin of 0 - 4 as IMO it would not be fair to say 6 points as that would include conversions which is not the necessarily the "playmakers" area of expertise.
Since debuting the clubs Norman has played for have the following stats
Win by 0 - 4 points = 15 times
Lose by 0 - 4 points = 19 times
His team failed to score = 5 times
Draws = 1
Surely you would want "your playmaker" to have better stats than that wouldn't you?

 

[Carlton]

So you are looking for Norman to be the playmaker and you believe that the couple of games against us is evidence enough for you to believe that not only will he do that well IYO he will also be much better than Widdop.
Perhaps you might like to consider the following thoughts and statistics?
Since debuting in 2010 the clubs Corey Norman has played for have Won 97 games Lost 108 games and drawn 1 game.
Fair to say he didn't play all games but at best it is less than a 50% win ratio.
IMO it would be fair to judge a "playmaker" on the games that the teams win or lose by a margin of 0 - 4 as IMO it would not be fair to say 6 points as that would include conversions which is not the necessarily the "playmakers" area of expertise.
Since debuting the clubs Norman has played for have the following stats
Win by 0 - 4 points = 15 times
Lose by 0 - 4 points = 19 times
His team failed to score = 5 times
Draws = 1
Surely you would want "your playmaker" to have better stats than that wouldn't you?

Looking at wins and losses is not how you determine whether a player is a good playmaker or not. Its how they perform the role on the field, a loss can be due to other issues within the team even if the playmaker is perfect. Similarly, a team can win inspite of the playmaker being poor, depending on the quality of the opposition and calibre of the rest of the team.

 

[muzby]

Looking at wins and losses is not how you determine whether a player is a good playmaker or not. Its how they perform the role on the field, a loss can be due to other issues within the team even if the playmaker is perfect. Similarly, a team can win inspite of the playmaker being poor, depending on the quality of the opposition and calibre of the rest of the team.

You are missing one critical factor in a team’s win/loss record...

 

[Old Timer]

Looking at wins and losses is not how you determine whether a player is a good playmaker or not. Its how they perform the role on the field, a loss can be due to other issues within the team even if the playmaker is perfect. Similarly, a team can win inspite of the playmaker being poor, depending on the quality of the opposition and calibre of the rest of the team.

My post is in response to the arguments being put forward by our latest & greatest Widdop detractor and should be evaluated on that basis.
He is insistent that Norman has all the qualities our team needs to turn our fortunes where he believes Widdop has hampered us.
If it his belief is that Widdop has cost our team some wins then I suggest my post is appropriate for him to think about as it at least provide some contrast.
After all you want your “playmaker” to lay on the play that gives you that winning try or FG to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

 

[True_Believer]

Looking at wins and losses is not how you determine whether a player is a good playmaker or not. Its how they perform the role on the field, a loss can be due to other issues within the team even if the playmaker is perfect. Similarly, a team can win inspite of the playmaker being poor, depending on the quality of the opposition and calibre of the rest of the team.

You are correct Carlton. However, some of the reasons being used to justify that Norman will be better as a playmaker is winning those close games, closing out games, team management and kicking field goals. Now irrespective of whether other things impacted the game or not, the stats that OT has supplied does go some way to indicating that Norman may not be as good at those aspects of the game as some other posters believe he is.

As you've pointed out, those stats don't paint a clear picture. and I've stated in other posts, stats only tell part of the story - however they are the only component of a story that can't be refuted. The rest of it is pretty much subjective.

I've already said I'm happy for either Norman or Widdop to fill either role. I think they'll do well no matter which position they play in. I've acknowledged that Gaz has some shortcomings in his game, but I don't believe he was "an unmitigated disaster". I think he did the best he could with the partners he had to work with and I think he's a decent playmaker. Just because he doesn't wave his arms about or shout at players during the game doesn't mean he isn't coordinating plays etc.

It will be good to see who fills the role this season and how they work with Ben going forward. IMO, it makes sense for Norman to be in the halves for at least some of the year as it is my assumption that it is the clubs plan for him to fill the role from 2020 onwards.

 

[DragonJ]

So you are looking for Norman to be the playmaker and you believe that the couple of games against us is evidence enough for you to believe that not only will he do that well IYO he will also be much better than Widdop.
Perhaps you might like to consider the following thoughts and statistics?
Since debuting in 2010 the clubs Corey Norman has played for have Won 97 games Lost 108 games and drawn 1 game.
Fair to say he didn't play all games but at best it is less than a 50% win ratio.
IMO it would be fair to judge a "playmaker" on the games that the teams win or lose by a margin of 0 - 4 as IMO it would not be fair to say 6 points as that would include conversions which is not the necessarily the "playmakers" area of expertise.
Since debuting the clubs Norman has played for have the following stats
Win by 0 - 4 points = 15 times
Lose by 0 - 4 points = 19 times
His team failed to score = 5 times
Draws = 1
Surely you would want "your playmaker" to have better stats than that wouldn't you?

I'm just glad you have stopped casting moral aspersions. Who made you a moral authority anyway?

No, I believe from a few games against us and a few games at the business end of the 2017 season, he is going to be a tremendous playmaker and a much better 5/8 than Widdop. I'm confident he will play a large part in bringing us success. If I'm wrong, I will admit it. But have to wait until the halfway point of the season at least. And I mean, if I'm wrong about Norman being a good playmaker. Widdop has more than proven he isn't a good playmaker. It's only a question of whether he is poor, very poor or an unmitigated disaster as a playmaker.

As Carlton points out, those stats you provided are utterly meaningless.

So what about the rest of the playmaking group apart from Widdop? I mean, if Widdop is 10/10 as a player and morally, what is: Ben Hunt, Norman and Dufty.

And obviously you can't compare them with Widdop as a RL player but I'm curious about the moral credentials of: Debelin, Graham, Vaughan, Sims.

 

[Gareth67]

My post is in response to the arguments being put forward by our latest & greatest Widdop detractor and should be evaluated on that basis.
He is insistent that Norman has all the qualities our team needs to turn our fortunes where he believes Widdop has hampered us.
If it his belief is that Widdop has cost our team some wins then I suggest my post is appropriate for him to think about as it at least provide some contrast.
After all you want your “playmaker” to lay on the play that gives you that winning try or FG to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

O.T. This bloke has undoubtedly been here before , now using a new name , but the same horse-shat .

 

[2010]

I think that Widdop has and will be in 2019 a good player for us. It is easy to point out games Norman has played in whether it was a win, loss or draw.
Statistics can be an argument to assess a players ability but don’t show how the rest of the team has played.
I think Saints are a more stable team then Parramatta and I feel he will be a far better player with us.
Norman is a dragon now and he starts here with a new slate.
Who cares how many games he was won or lost in the passed. It is about how he plays in 2019

 

[DragonJ]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And the burden of proof falls on the person making the claim.

Make a rational case that widdop is an "unmitigated disaster" as a playmaker. I'll wait.

The last 5 years have been an unmitigated disaster!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NRL_season See who the premiers were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NRL_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NRL_season See who the premiers were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_NRL_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NRL_season See who the premiers were.

Not only have we been rubbish, it has seen Souffs emerge as a powerhouse and Shonkies are still a basket case off the field but that is a par for the course. On the field they have also been a powerhouse.

Further proof it is a zero-sum game. Souffs emergence as a financial powerhouse has seen our decline to the point of needing loans from the NRL. Unprecedented success on the field for the Shonkies has corresponded with disaster for us.

There is also the plight of Frizz and JDB (I know the former was a Shonkies Jnr but he came to us before he was an NRL player) who would have been recognized as top forwards years earlier if our halves and outside backs had not been so f**king useless!

There are many people to blame for this.

Bennett for backeneded contracts and for recommending Price. Price for being Price. Doust for sticking with Price. Doust for finally replacing Price with McFooknuckle. McFooknuckle for being McFooknuckle. Doust for sticking with McFooknuckle. Widdop for being recruited as and paid as a marquee playmaker, being made captain by McFooknuckle but failing utterly and hopelessly at being a playmaker and a captain.

Is that enough?

Methinks you’ve confused Drinkwater with Michael Witt. The former had already left the Dragons BEFORE Widdop’s arrival.

Some research wouldn’t go astray,

Your anti Widdop rantings are misguided and border on hysteria.

No need to go native on me. I think Widdop will do well at fullback. He won't be one of the best but will be good. It's just in the halves he was f**king useless for us! Without Cronk and Smith directing him around the park like he stated he wanted to do with us.

So replace Drinkwater with Witt. What's the problem?

 

[SBD82]

The last 5 years have been an unmitigated disaster!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NRL_season See who the premiers were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NRL_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NRL_season See who the premiers were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_NRL_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NRL_season See who the premiers were.

Not only have we been rubbish, it has seen Souffs emerge as a powerhouse and Shonkies are still a basket case off the field but that is a par for the course. On the field they have also been a powerhouse.

Further proof it is a zero-sum game. Souffs emergence as a financial powerhouse has seen our decline to the point of needing loans from the NRL. Unprecedented success on the field for the Shonkies has corresponded with disaster for us.

There is also the plight of Frizz and JDB (I know the former was a Shonkies Jnr but he came to us before he was an NRL player) who would have been recognized as top forwards years earlier if our halves and outside backs had not been so f**king useless!

There are many people to blame for this.

Bennett for backeneded contracts and for recommending Price. Price for being Price. Doust for sticking with Price. Doust for finally replacing Price with McFooknuckle. McFooknuckle for being McFooknuckle. Doust for sticking with McFooknuckle. Widdop for being recruited as and paid as a marquee playmaker, being made captain by McFooknuckle but failing utterly and hopelessly at being a playmaker and a captain.

Is that enough?

Thanks for reducing the hyperbole. Still some way to go but a fair effort.

Your original claim was that Widdop as a playmaker has been in unmitigated disaster. Nothing in your post demonstrates this. Actually, even were we to agree that widdop as a playmaker has been a disaster, you've just given us a list of mitigating circumstances.

NB. Tyson is an Illawarra junior. And he debuted in the NRL for the sharks.

 

[BLM01]

The last 5 years have been an unmitigated disaster!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NRL_season See who the premiers were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NRL_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NRL_season See who the premiers were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_NRL_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NRL_season See who the premiers were.

Not only have we been rubbish, it has seen Souffs emerge as a powerhouse and Shonkies are still a basket case off the field but that is a par for the course. On the field they have also been a powerhouse.

Further proof it is a zero-sum game. Souffs emergence as a financial powerhouse has seen our decline to the point of needing loans from the NRL. Unprecedented success on the field for the Shonkies has corresponded with disaster for us.

There is also the plight of Frizz and JDB (I know the former was a Shonkies Jnr but he came to us before he was an NRL player) who would have been recognized as top forwards years earlier if our halves and outside backs had not been so f**king useless!

There are many people to blame for this.

Bennett for backeneded contracts and for recommending Price. Price for being Price. Doust for sticking with Price. Doust for finally replacing Price with McFooknuckle. McFooknuckle for being McFooknuckle. Doust for sticking with McFooknuckle. Widdop for being recruited as and paid as a marquee playmaker, being made captain by McFooknuckle but failing utterly and hopelessly at being a playmaker and a captain.

Is that enough?



No need to go native on me. I think Widdop will do well at fullback. He won't be one of the best but will be good. It's just in the halves he was f**king useless for us! Without Cronk and Smith directing him around the park like he stated he wanted to do with us.

So replace Drinkwater with Witt. What's the problem?

Ok Last Comment on this matter to you on this thread......since you moved threads.
The problem is you and your love affair and obssession with Widdop as our best all round No. 6 since Mundine and some would argue Trent Barrett. I get it now.
Next........

 

[DragonJ]

Thanks for reducing the hyperbole. Still some way to go but a fair effort.

Your original claim was that Widdop as a playmaker has been in unmitigated disaster. Nothing in your post demonstrates this. Actually, even were we to agree that widdop as a playmaker has been a disaster, you've just given us a list of mitigating circumstances.

NB. Tyson is an Illawarra junior. And he debuted in the NRL for the sharks.

Well if that isn't enough for you, the team and club will have to fold. It can't get much worse. If you can nominate some positives, I will change my opinion.

 

[DragonJ]

Ok Last Comment on this matter to you on this thread......since you moved threads.
The problem is you and your love affair and obssession with Widdop as our best all round No. 6 since Mundine and some would argue Trent Barrett. I get it now.
Next........

You think Widdop is better for us than Soward was?

 

[BLM01]

You think Widdop is better for us than Soward was?

Yep....Next

 

[SBD82]

Well if that isn't enough for you, the team and club will have to fold. It can't get much worse. If you can nominate some positives, I will change my opinion.

You're moving the goalposts. While that's a summary of our success or failure since Bannet left, All of your points prove nothing about Widdop's playmaking.

As I said, if you want to make the extraordinary claim that Widdop as a playmaker is an unmitigated disaster, you need to provide extraordinary evidence to support your claim. Deflecting to irrelevant points about the club isn't doing you any favours.

 

[Drag Queen]

The last 5 years have been an unmitigated disaster!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_NRL_season See who the premiers were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NRL_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NRL_season See who the premiers were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_NRL_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NRL_season See who the premiers were.

Not only have we been rubbish, it has seen Souffs emerge as a powerhouse and Shonkies are still a basket case off the field but that is a par for the course. On the field they have also been a powerhouse.

Further proof it is a zero-sum game. Souffs emergence as a financial powerhouse has seen our decline to the point of needing loans from the NRL. Unprecedented success on the field for the Shonkies has corresponded with disaster for us.

There is also the plight of Frizz and JDB (I know the former was a Shonkies Jnr but he came to us before he was an NRL player) who would have been recognized as top forwards years earlier if our halves and outside backs had not been so f**king useless!

There are many people to blame for this.

Bennett for backeneded contracts and for recommending Price. Price for being Price. Doust for sticking with Price. Doust for finally replacing Price with McFooknuckle. McFooknuckle for being McFooknuckle. Doust for sticking with McFooknuckle. Widdop for being recruited as and paid as a marquee playmaker, being made captain by McFooknuckle but failing utterly and hopelessly at being a playmaker and a captain.

Is that enough?



No need to go native on me. I think Widdop will do well at fullback. He won't be one of the best but will be good. It's just in the halves he was f**king useless for us! Without Cronk and Smith directing him around the park like he stated he wanted to do with us.

So replace Drinkwater with Witt. What's the problem?

You do realise that anyone can update wiki right?? Go for your life...

 

[DragonJ]

Yep....Next

Ok. I think 1. Mundine 2. Soward light years 3. Barrett (disastrous playmaker but pretty decent running game, outstanding defence and a good kicker.) light years 4. Widdop

But don't take it personally please. I think he will do fine at fullback. I just think he was a f**king terrible playmaker and even McFooknuckle has gotten it through his thick skull. It's time you faced reality as well.

You're moving the goalposts. While that's a summary of our success or failure since Bannet left, All of your points prove nothing about Widdop's playmaking.

As I said, if you want to make the extraordinary claim that Widdop as a playmaker is an unmitigated disaster, you need to provide extraordinary evidence to support your claim. Deflecting to irrelevant points about the club isn't doing you any favours.

No deflecting at all. I have shown the performance of the team over the last 5 years. Since Widdop was signed and paid as the marquee playmaker he wanted to be. If you can nominate any positives directly related to Widdop being our playmaker, I will take back "unmitigated" disaster but at this point it remains "unmitigated".