What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Y.N.W.A Thread III: Enter 'The Normal One'

Mogsheen Jadwat

Juniors
Messages
2,428
Yeah, I think they should've come on earlier also but we're talking about a few sitters missed - Can, Clyne, Firmino, Coutinho, all had seriously decent chances to score. The game should've been out of sight before talk of substitutions was even a thing.

All in all, clean sheet, decent point away to a decent side (only Chelsea have won at St Marys in 2016), good run of games coming up, we still have plenty to smile at.
 

cb4

First Grade
Messages
9,586
It is starting to look like Lallana is the lynchpin that makes Klopp's preferred midfield and forward line go. I say that as without him against Southampton, the attack looked very pedestrian. Had little bite at all, and they looked miles away from the team that dismantled Watford.

One thing though, Klopp left it way too late in the game to realise things weren't working before introducing Sturridge and Origi to the game. I mean putting Sturridge on with 13 minutes left, and Origi with what 1 minute left in regulation?! Not giving either much time to do anything. Sturridge fashioned one decent chance for Clyne, but that was about it for either he or Origi. They should have come on by no later than the 70 minute mark to give them time to make an impact.

Sturridge should have been on at Half Time. Coutinho should have been taken off. I fear we are running him into the ground.
Completely agree about Lallana, and I was a big shouter to have him binned in the summer.
 

saint.nick

Coach
Messages
19,401
I'm sorry but this Klopp criticism is ridiculous.

First half - average but still had its promising moments
Second half - much improved.

We were creating great chances and we should have been at least 2-0 ahead. The arrangement we initially had on the field was showing a lot of promise. So why would Klopp change what is already working? He didn't need to. On any other day we would have been 2-0 ahead with that same on-field arrangement, and there was no guarantee that Sturridge or Origi would have improved things.

As for Lallana, while he does make us better, we don't necessarily rely too much on him. If Firmino, Clyne and Coutinho bury their chances, we wouldn't even be thinking about it. For the most part of the game, our attack was not pedestrian.
 
Messages
15,479
Sorry Nick but it is valid. If you are going to bring on subs to get a break through, 13 minutes and 1 minute (respectively) remaining in regulation is not going to do it. It does take players a bit of time to get into the flow of the game.

You say it was working? Sorry but nil all is hardly working for the attack, and after seeing all the chances fluffed, something needed to change. Sticking with what was out there so long smacks of obstinancy.

On any other day we would have been 2-0 ahead. Really?! Like against Man Utd? Like against Burnley? Tottenham?! I name those 3 games as (iirc) in all 3 our side had the bulk of possession, the bulk of shots on target, and yet in those 3 games the team managed 1 goal.

I have a lot of faith in Klopp and what he is doing. I just though he was wrong to leave the introduction of Sturridge and Origi so late in the game.

As to Lallana, I never said we relied on him too much. I merely commented, based on what I saw (as I watched the entire game live) how noticeable his absence was as the attack did not look as good without him.
 

saint.nick

Coach
Messages
19,401
Sorry Nick but it is valid. If you are going to bring on subs to get a break through, 13 minutes and 1 minute (respectively) remaining in regulation is not going to do it. It does take players a bit of time to get into the flow of the game.

Which is exactly why he left it so late, because the players on the pitch had already got into a good rhythm and looked increasingly likely to score. Southampton were on their heels.

And it took Sturridge no time at all to get into the flow.

You say it was working? Sorry but nil all is hardly working for the attack, and after seeing all the chances fluffed, something needed to change. Sticking with what was out there so long smacks of obstinancy.

Yes, of course the system was working. On-field arrangements are designed to stop goals and create chances, under the presumption that individual players will convert the chances created by that arrangement. Klopp's arrangement was succeeding in stopping goals and creating a lot of chances. You don't just change it because the finishing is off, you trust that the players will continue the trend of creating good chances, and then finally convert one. It's not so wacky to trust that your elite professional attackers can put one in the back of the net after creating enough good opportunities.

On any other day we would have been 2-0 ahead. Really?! Like against Man Utd? Like against Burnley? Tottenham?! I name those 3 games as (iirc) in all 3 our side had the bulk of possession, the bulk of shots on target, and yet in those 3 games the team managed 1 goal.

This comparison is redundant because a bulk of shots on target doesn't automatically equate to a good volume of stonewall opportunities. i.e. against Burley, virtually every chance was an attempt outside the box. Against Southampton we created more gilt-edged chances than against all of United, Burnley and Spurs combined. We created *none* against Burnley, one against United after Klopp's Lallana substitution, and two against Spurs, one of which was incorrectly pulled back for offside.

On the other hand, how many legitimate chances did we create against Southampton? Well in the first half Mane was through on goal, and then had another great opportunity inside the box that was saved. In the second half Coutinho horribly fluffed his lines when facing the keeper and should have buried it, Firmino completely fluffed it too, and then Clyne somehow missed a header from right in front. That's five great chances in one game, three of which came in the second half when we were much improved. Our performance was not remotely close to crying out for a substitution, it would have been a substitution for the mere sake of it, 'because that's just what you do when it hits the 65th minute mark'.
 
Messages
15,479
Which is exactly why he left it so late, because the players on the pitch had already got into a good rhythm and looked increasingly likely to score. Southampton were on their heels.

And it took Sturridge no time at all to get into the flow.



Yes, of course the system was working. On-field arrangements are designed to stop goals and create chances, under the presumption that individual players will convert the chances created by that arrangement. Klopp's arrangement was succeeding in stopping goals and creating a lot of chances. You don't just change it because the finishing is off, you trust that the players will continue the trend of creating good chances, and then finally convert one. It's not so wacky to trust that your elite professional attackers can put one in the back of the net after creating enough good opportunities.



This comparison is redundant because a bulk of shots on target doesn't automatically equate to a good volume of stonewall opportunities. i.e. against Burley, virtually every chance was an attempt outside the box. Against Southampton we created more gilt-edged chances than against all of United, Burnley and Spurs combined. We created *none* against Burnley, one against United after Klopp's Lallana substitution, and two against Spurs, one of which was incorrectly pulled back for offside.

On the other hand, how many legitimate chances did we create against Southampton? Well in the first half Mane was through on goal, and then had another great opportunity inside the box that was saved. In the second half Coutinho horribly fluffed his lines when facing the keeper and should have buried it, Firmino completely fluffed it too, and then Clyne somehow missed a header from right in front. That's five great chances in one game, three of which came in the second half when we were much improved. Our performance was not remotely close to crying out for a substitution, it would have been a substitution for the mere sake of it, 'because that's just what you do when it hits the 65th minute mark'.

If it was working, why were there 0 goals scored? That is what the attack is for to score them, not just create chances for them. As such saying "it was working" is a non-sequitur, if it was, they'd have score at least 1 but they didn't. Repeating the same thing when it is not working and expecting a different result is an example of futility.

Even the TV commentators thought Sturridge should have been on earlier, I won't repeat what they said when Origi was introduced as they thought it dumb to bring him on that late.

We'll have to agree to disagree Nick as I doubt we are going to persuade each other on this matter.
 

saint.nick

Coach
Messages
19,401
If it was working, why were there 0 goals scored? That is what the attack is for to score them, not just create chances for them. As such saying "it was working" is a non-sequitur, if it was, they'd have score at least 1 but they didn't. Repeating the same thing when it is not working and expecting a different result is an example of futility.

Even the TV commentators thought Sturridge should have been on earlier, I won't repeat what they said when Origi was introduced as they thought it dumb to bring him on that late.

We'll have to agree to disagree Nick as I doubt we are going to persuade each other on this matter.

How can you be so easily persuaded by mindless commentators? If that's your source of validation then I'm not impressed. The same commentators who remarked that we weren't able to break Southampton down. What a load of rubbish.

You have a misguided interpretation of what an attacking system is meant to achieve. Finishing chances has nothing to do with the attacking structure, it's down to individual composure. While individuals are constituents of the structure, putting one substitute on is hardly going to solve the finishing woes of the other players.

80 minutes was the perfect time to make a change. If your team is creating chances, then you need to give them a good chance to finish it off. Making a change only risks disrupting a rhythm and chemistry that was starting to work very well for us. By putting Sturridge on, we had to take out one of the cogs making the attack click. Managers only make relatively early tactical changes when they need momentum to go back in their favour or they need to shut up shop. Our situation required neither.
 
Messages
15,479
Good to see us get past a bus and 2 straight clean sheets.

Also Karius with a quality stuff up.


Yeah, laughed at the Karius one. He made a great save but that corner? ROFL.

Attack was definitely not as cutting today though. The players were not playing with as much pace today that they did last week. I thought too many of the first passes went sideways when they needed to mix it up and go forwards. They few times they did? They exposed Sunderland. The passing looked more ponderous and slow today.

Nice strike from Origi to score the first goal.
 

Jack_Napier

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
3,622
Bit hard to play forward when Sunderland were playing very compact and deep. Their back 4 were spread across the box and midfielders dropped back to basically have 6 across the back line. Sunderland threatened before the game to park the double decker bus and they didn't disappoint.
 

saint.nick

Coach
Messages
19,401
I think Liverpool just proved once and for all that they can cope with teams that park the bus, and they did it without Coutinho or Lallana. This will give them loads more confidence against teams who try and pull the same stunt.
 
Messages
15,479
Bit hard to play forward when Sunderland were playing very compact and deep. Their back 4 were spread across the box and midfielders dropped back to basically have 6 across the back line. Sunderland threatened before the game to park the double decker bus and they didn't disappoint.

Yes they were playing compact. Just there were opportunities where they could have played forward yet instead of even attempting to do so the first pass more often than not went sideways. I'm not saying that it was all poor decision making as Sunderland's tacticS dictated certain aspects of the game, just that there were opportunities when Liverpool could have played forward when they regained possession, but didn't.
 
Last edited:

Haffa

Guest
Messages
16,537
I think Liverpool just proved once and for all that they can cope with teams that park the bus, and they did it without Coutinho or Lallana. This will give them loads more confidence against teams who try and pull the same stunt.
You're really calling that after a game against that defence?
 

Jack_Napier

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
3,622
Ben Woodburn becomes LFC youngest ever goal scorer after banging one in today. He, Ajaria and Alexander-Arnold all played well yet again for the first team this morning.

Alexander-Arnold is really impressing every time I watch him. Has a cracking final ball for such a young kid.
 

cb4

First Grade
Messages
9,586
So do we put Wijnaldum in his favourable left role and Lallana back in, or Origi up front, Firmino left and Lallana/Wijnaldum on the bench?
 
Messages
15,479
If fully fit Lallana will be straight back into the side. I dare say it will be Origi up front with Firmino out wide on the left. It could well be Can back to the bench if it isn't Wijnaldum.
 

Latest posts

Top