Away jersey

[God-King Dean]

Gas Panic, could you fo all Saints fans a favour & change your avatar?

I don't mind the picture but it's the score at the bottom that gets to me

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

The Steelers were robbed in 92. The only time to look at them without exterior-influences (setting up during a recession, in the Winfield era and then Super League) is the early 90s, where Illawarra consistently finished in the top half of the comp, winning the 92 Tooheys challenge, hardly losing at home as well as being robbed in 92 GF qualifier.

I knew I read this somewhere before and here it is. Are you and Berkeley_Eagle sharing the same digs?
From your 'poll' in the NRL section:

Also during that period, Illawarra consistently finished in the top half of the ladder (16 teams), better than today’s top eight.

He seems to mimmick a lot of your thoughts: http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/viewtopic.php?t=44520&start=70

I have already debunked the 'recession' excuse. As well, I have found that there little or no substance to attempts at equivalence and that the 'Dragons took 20 years to win a premiership'.
Quite clearly the Dragons had a very solid and often impressive record in their early years when compared to the Steelers. And they did so during the Great Depression.

Now I read from you: "the early 90s, where Illawarra consistently finished in the top half of the comp"You mean for 3 years? How is that consistent?
1982: 13th (out of 14)
1983: 12th (out of 14)
1984: 8th (out of 13)
1985: 13th (out of 13)
1986: 13th (out of 13)
1987: 11th (out of 13)
1988: 13th (out of 16)
1989: 16th (out of 16)
1990: 9th (out of 16)
1991: 8th (out of 16)
1992: 3rd (out of 16)
1993: 7th (out of 16)
1994: 6th (out of 16) 1995: 12th (out of 20)
1996: 14th (out of 20)
1997: 6th (out of 12)
1998: 12th (out of 20)

I have no issue debating this and I support the Illawarra contribution to the Dragons, but let's aim at sticking to the facts as much as possible.
This business of twisting figures to suit your agenda is becoming a tad tedious.
btw, thanks for the background to the CRL's involvement in holding Illawarra out of the NSWRL's expansion. Very interesting and enlightening.

That's four years. Before Super League interupted that. Graham Murray was really doing a great job.
The Leagues Club was opened in 1990. The Crowds from 1990 to 1995 were fantastic (in their time) and the Club was making handsome profits (for the time), the Steelers being given the maximum salary cap allowed (was it $1.4 million or something?). SL and the loss of Graham Murray brought an end to all that.

Now I read from you: "the early 90s, where Illawarra consistently finished in the top half of the comp"

... before Super League struck and ruined years of hard work just to get there.

You call it the 'recession excuse'... we'll it's a fact that the many local leagues clubs were throwing the money behind the Steelers before the recession forced them to pull out. 1984 was a decent season under Brian Smith (2 points out of the 5) but the well had dried up the stars couldn;t be kept and we went backwards and it wasn't until the 90s that things could be truely turned around. (also, just look at the Cowboys, 10 years of battling and it's now starting to pay off).

As for the Berkely Eagle thing, I'm not sure exactly what you're on about... I notice he's from Wollongong? Maybe that's why he echos similar sentiments. Almost everyone who was a football follower down here in that time would just about share the same sentiments.

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

Ah ha!
Willow, regarding the Berkely Eagle guy, he's ripping it off. It's from a Steelers site. He could of at least re-worded it. Thanks for pointing it out. I can't believe people lift things like that. Even if he agrees, he should re-word it or say where it's from.

University drilled me not to plagiarise. I guess we don't all have the same education :lol: I'll go there and post something... even though he's sorta on my side, that's unacceptable.

 

[Anonymous]

I think you have a follower.

OK, 8th in 1991 is also consistently finishing in the top half of the comp. #-o

The recesssion is an 'excuse' - what else would you have me call it?

But you say that Saints took from 1921 - 1941 to succeed - which isn't strictly true.

You might have 4-of-a-kind but I have a Royal Flush.
I'll see your recession and raise it a Great Depression

 

[Anonymous]

Ah ha!
Willow, regarding the Berkely Eagle guy, he's ripping it off. It's from a Steelers site. He could of at least re-worded it. Thanks for pointing it out. I can't believe people lift things like that. Even if he agrees, he should re-word it or say where it's from.

University drilled me not to plagiarise. I guess we don't all have the same education :lol: I'll go there and post something... even though he's sorta on my side, that's unacceptable.

I thought I read it somewhere before. He wouldn't get a run in the F7s. lol

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

He must be in high school. That's how they do assignments lol.

By the way, what exactly is the F7s?

 

[Anonymous]

By the way, what exactly is the F7s?

Forum Sevens.
Members write 500-750 words on anythimg about Rugby League in a team vs team competition.

You'll see the F7s matches thread here: http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/viewforum.php?f=43

The website with all the rules and teams profiles: http://f7s.leagueunlimited.com

Very friendly competition. If you want a run with the Bluebags, let me know.

 

[S2H]

I think you have a follower.

OK, 8th in 1991 is also consistently finishing in the top half of the comp. #-o

The recesssion is an 'excuse' - what else would you have me call it?

But you say that Saints took from 1921 - 1941 to succeed - which isn't strictly true.

You might have 4-of-a-kind but I have a Royal Flush.
I'll see your recession and raise it a Great Depression

The Great depression hit the US in October 1929 and hit Australia in early 1930. Thats 9 years from 1921. (granted it did last 9 years after that)

The recession in the 80's hit commodity prices more than anything else, which has a huge effect on a community which relies on the steel industry to survive. The recession definately hit the Illawarra (and Newcastle) areas alot harder than any other League area. Maybe you need to live in a steel area to understand how hard it hits the community.

The recession in the 80's had a greater effect on specific area like steel areas, wheras the great depression had the same detrimental effects on all (so the playing field was even)

Its not an excuse its a fact of life that money in the Illawarra was scarce in the 80's and it wasn't until the early 90's that the Illawarra began to recover (about the same time as the Steelers started playing well)

My personal feeling is that if the Illawarra was able to have established itself in the 60's we would have a very successful team in the competition backed by the Illawarra leagues club.

I suppose we will never know.

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

Yeah, it really shits me that we couldn't get in earlier, especially when we wanted to and it was only the CRL stopping us.

Sure the depression was bad, but that was in the days of when you played for where you lived, and money was hardly an issue. The Steelers were trying to establish during a recession, in a money driven era (obviously nothing compared to today) and players would go where the money was. That was a set back.

The early 90s were the only time they didn't have external factors to wrestle with, and everything looked rosy. The killer punch was Super League breaking out in the middle of the Steelers Clubs major finacial plan that was to lead them to properity. The market inflated.

The Steelers got by on sponsorship, ticket sales and merchandise as their main income and with the raising of the bar (the NRL's illegal criteria which stated clubs needed 8million bucks a year) the Leagues club wasn't wealthy enough (yet) to suddenly come up with extra money and fill the gap of $2mil (according the Mr Millward). The Steelers could of continued alone, might of been kicked out of the competition like Souths, and then the high court would of proven the illegality of the NRL's criteria and we'd be back... but struggling like souths.

I remember the Souths decision and straight away everyone was saying.. "we're back!?" and Peter Newell saying "we're committed to the Dragons now, blah blah blah".

Anyway, basically - the Steelers were never really given a chance they were doing the right thing by merging. When Super League happened, everything that could of gone wrong did, where as Newcastle are an example of everything working out perfectly, they went from terrible financial position, being helped by the Super League situation (with all their team signing ARL loyalty contracts it bought them time and kept the team together) gave them a "grand final" win and saw them past the cut. They were also saved by a big loan from the Chargers (when they were closed up) and now they're on shaky ground again.

If anyone's ever read 13 years of Steel - there's a reference to how the number 13 plays a big part in the Steelers. Here are some i can remember, plus another one... 13th team admitted, on the 13th of december, first year finished 13th (out of 14), the club's downward spiral began when it was 13 years old (SL)... there's more, I'll look em up...

I wish Canberra were admitted first, then we'd of been the 14th team!

 

[Anonymous]

I think you have a follower.

OK, 8th in 1991 is also consistently finishing in the top half of the comp. #-o

The recesssion is an 'excuse' - what else would you have me call it?

But you say that Saints took from 1921 - 1941 to succeed - which isn't strictly true.

You might have 4-of-a-kind but I have a Royal Flush.
I'll see your recession and raise it a Great Depression

The Great depression hit the US in October 1929 and hit Australia in early 1930. Thats 9 years from 1921. (granted it did last 9 years after that)

The recession in the 80's hit commodity prices more than anything else, which has a huge effect on a community which relies on the steel industry to survive. The recession definately hit the Illawarra (and Newcastle) areas alot harder than any other League area. Maybe you need to live in a steel area to understand how hard it hits the community.

The recession in the 80's had a greater effect on specific area like steel areas, wheras the great depression had the same detrimental effects on all (so the playing field was even)

Its not an excuse its a fact of life that money in the Illawarra was scarce in the 80's and it wasn't until the early 90's that the Illawarra began to recover (about the same time as the Steelers started playing well)

My personal feeling is that if the Illawarra was able to have established itself in the 60's we would have a very successful team in the competition backed by the Illawarra leagues club.

I suppose we will never know.

To put this in context, the assertion was that the Steelers had it tougher than the Dragons of the 1920s. The claim being that the Dragons had the same 'lack of success' in their formative years.

This is clearly incorrect as Saints had a relative amount of hardships and were far more successful than the '2 decades of nothing' claim, making the semi-finals 11 times during this period.

I hasten to add that it was others who brought this up and and made the claim - a claim which I think is clearly misleading.

If you're looking a team of similar success, or lack thereof, then I think you'd better off using the Sharks as an example.

I totally agree that if the Illawarra joined the competition in 1967, they would have been a far more successful team. On this point I have no argument.

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

At the end of the day, no one cares who came second. It still took St.George over 2 decades to win a premiership. In those days it was: "hey come and play with us digger ;-) ". Give em a jumper and away they go.

It is much harder to establish a team in a professional competition in the colour television era with other clubs well established and wealthy. The Melbourne Storm and Brisbane Broncos were successful straight away... but they aren't footy clubs.

My argument is that it is unfair to say the Steelers failed when they didn't, they never had a chance.

Your Sharks remarks contradict your theory of being successful. You didn't take into account their GF appearances, minor premierships and semi final appearances.

Anyway, this is tiresome. At least we can agree that the world would of been a better place if the Steelers were in back in the 50s or 60s - meaning no such thing as the Cronulla Sutherland Sharks.

Anyone got a time machine?

 

[Anonymous]

If no one cares who comes second then why do you bring up the 4 years of 'top half' finishes?

Or perhaps you want to hold the mortgage on both sides of the debate.

The problem with the "2 decades to win a premiership" argument is that it doesn't tell the full story. Agreed?

It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
At best, it preaches to converted... creating more division in it's wake.

Remember, I didn't bring this up... the put down of the early Dragons is part of your agenda.

Far be it from me to advise you in any way, but if you want to make some changes and convert a few people over, then you have to start off by telling the full story.

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

Jesus Christ... you still haven't realised...

If i agree to this:

The problem with the "2 decades to win a premiership" argument is that it doesn't tell the full story. Agreed?

Which of course I do (I say it in response to the people who don't consider the full story of the Steelers, not necessarily you)

Then you agree to this:"The Steelers were a success in the early to mid 90s, after they battled to get established (and set up a leagues club to set them for the future) and just before Super League destroyed years of hard work". Those on field performances were overlapped with financial turnarounds and big crowds (from 1990 to 1995)

BUT if anyone takes the line:
"Steelers failed" (which "doesn't tell the full story")

I can respond with:
"St.George took 2 decades to win a premiership".

Ok?

It's not covering both sides of the fence. It's responding to remarks with the same standards.

 

[Anonymous]

It's the comparison itself which is flawed.

I'm not saying the Steelers failed. And we agree that they should have been admitted in 1967.

But if you choose to line up the Steelers years against the Dragons early years (as you have), then it's clear that the records don't do the Steelers any favours.

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

:roll:

 

[Anonymous]

What's that..? An overwhelming desire to have the last word? :lol:
Go ahead, knock yourself out.

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

:lol: ... the funny thing is... YOU'RE DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING!