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Emerging Nations World Cup

deal.with.it

Juniors
Messages
2,086
And by that I mean, starting a domestic comp, getting gov recognition, sponsors, schools etc. and then approach the RLIF for money. Until there is a time when the RLIF can employ people to actually start the game in countries/regions, this is the only approach that works. Otherwise the RLIF would lose a whole lot of money giving it to individuals that are not the most suitable to run the sport in that said country/region (Hello Eric Perez).
 

latingringo101

Juniors
Messages
585
Couple of quick points:

- Adam Kungl is involved with Latin Heat, as is Latin Gringo 101 ... so no one is going to convince them of a different idea/point of view

- The RLWC approved a couple of curtain raiser matches, never an ENWC

- The ENWC teams decided they couldn't afford the stadium rental and decided to make their own tournament, which wasn't approved by anyone

- It's still debatable if the ENWC would be good for international RL, that is what people on here are trying to voice. Some nations are doing good things, others (Niue, Africa United) are just helping more players in Australia play the game (which is good, but not what we desperately need).

- Robert Burgin speaks of almost a dozen nations looking at breaking away. Well count the 6 or more Latin Heat nations, throw in Hong Kong and Thailand and you're almost there. No nation that plays by the RLIF rules (very similar to all other sports) is talking about a break away.

1. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. There are p.o.v for and against on this issue but yes we (Latin Heat) still believe the cancelling of the enwc wasn't the best decision.

2. Whether the RLWC only approved that or not, it just shows a complete miscommunication by the RLIF AND RLWC. Both have contacts in Sydney where negotiations for the tournament were being made and the ENWC committee were constantly keeping the RLIF up to date on things which were happening.

3. We assumed the RLIF had already approved the tournament. To say "no one approved it" isn't correct, the only reason it was cancelled was because the 2017 RLWC team believed it shouldn't be played and told the RLIF to not allow it. The RLIF was approached in Nov 2016 and said yes, then three months later turned around and said it was cancelled when the RLWC 2017 guys said no. (This was after bonds were paid, sponsors and media locked in and people had already bought flights for the tournament from overseas).

4. The ENWC has seen two very successful tournaments played in both 1995 and 2000. It wasn't going to impact the 2017 RLWC in any way, shape or form and in fact was going to complement it and showcase Rugby League on an even further International level! Players who were travelling interstate and from overseas were going to attend games of the RLWC as well so there's no Empirical evidence as to why it was going to take away attention from the main tournament.

5. Break away from the RLIF or not, the main issue is the MASSIVE miscommunication by the RLIF and RLWC committee to the volunteers. This is just one of MANY times the RLIF have let down individuals who try to do their best to spread the game of Rugby League globally.

This was ALL done by volunteers and to tell people who were doing the RLIFs job for them that "hey you can't help develop international RL" is a MASSIVE kick in the teeth for all the individuals who for 3 months created something which the RLIF SHOULD have been doing in the first place!
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
Couple of quick points:

- Adam Kungl is involved with Latin Heat, as is Latin Gringo 101 ... so no one is going to convince them of a different idea/point of view

I'm not involved in any meaningful way - I played 2 games in 2015. I support what they're doing however (and anyone actually making a visible effort to grow the game) and support the concept of an ENWC - as do many people who aren't involved with any of them.

I accept there is debate over the suitability of an ENWC. What I find difficult is to see how people can find the RLIF's professionalism and processes acceptable here. To claim they didn't realise what was being organised is just another hit on their already low reputation.
Facts - they approved it, they were kept up to date, and they canned it over completely ridiculous fears of an amateur park comp overshadowing a professional World Cup. In doing this they threw away money, players, sponsorships, and recognition from nations they have already done little to nothing to support.

That all said, any talk of breakaways is silly and unnecessarily damaging.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
I think its worth noting that the RLIF aren't actually organising the world cup,the ARLC are,they do it for the RLIF,like how the RFL did for the 2013 RLWC..

Also...can we decide what the RLIF are? Its either a body that "rapes & pillages" like viking invaders....or its one bloke,dave collier,sat behind a desk with no money or staff...it can't be both..

but anyway....

Doesn't seem like it would be a stretch to actually be in contact with people trying to kick off the game at the lowest level.
 

deal.with.it

Juniors
Messages
2,086
But they didn't approve a whole ENWC. They approved a couple of curtain raiser matches.

The emerging nations got carried away and "assumed" it was approved by the RLIF to hold a whole tournament.
 

latingringo101

Juniors
Messages
585
But they didn't approve a whole ENWC. They approved a couple of curtain raiser matches.

The emerging nations got carried away and "assumed" it was approved by the RLIF to hold a whole tournament.

The RLIF was constantly kept up to date with how the tournament was progressing. The RLWC COMMITTEE made it be canned for fear it would undermine the main tournament, the RLIF just followed suit.
So for a sub division of their organisation to have the final say over this matter rather than the top of the chain of command is very odd.

Even David Collier (RLIF chairman) himself reacted very strangely when asked his side of the situation.

Firstly he didn't know about the Cabramatta 9s (which had been running for 14 years under RLIF watch) where most of the ENWC teams were competing in for preparation for the tournament later in the year.

Secondly he couldn't even be bothered sending a RLIF rep to deliver the news of the ENWC cancelling to all the teams in person just to show a bit of respect. Instead it was done via technology (email, messages etc) rather than a formal meeting which had occurred between teams and RLIF members before.

As I said before, the main victims here are the volunteers of this tournament who got let down by the complete and utter confusion of the set up of the RLIF and miscommunication of what was going on.

The RLIF were kept in the loop EVERY STEP OF THE WAY and SHOULD have been prepared for something like this to happen. A knee jerk reaction and thinking "oh that's right the RLWC is on, sorry guys gotta can this" is truely unprofessional.

To say we (ENWC committee) got "carried away" is very odd because A) We were NOT told we were doing bad otherwise and B) If the RLIF gave the green light from them start, they should have seen it through until the end, not just can it at the last second.
 

deal.with.it

Juniors
Messages
2,086
You did get carried away. The RLIF and RLWC agreed to a couple of curtain raiser matches. That's fact.

Yes the volunteers would feel hard done by.
 

latingringo101

Juniors
Messages
585
You did get carried away. The RLIF and RLWC agreed to a couple of curtain raiser matches. That's fact.

Yes the volunteers would feel hard done by.
The RLIF, ENWC committee and NRL backed the final ENWC tournament format. It was just the RLWC committee who didn't agree with it.
 
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latingringo101

Juniors
Messages
585
Is it fact? I don't know if it is or it isn't. Do we have any evidence to prove or disprove it?
Originally it was only going to be a few curtain raises, but that changed after a few meetings between the RLIF and ENWC committee.

The final format was agreed to by the RLIF AND NRL!
 

Jankuloski

Juniors
Messages
799
I think the bigger issue is the RLIF logic in the first place. How can an ENWC tournament undermine the WC?
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,181
I saw a poster on Facebook for a game between the Philippines V Hong Kong xiii,across the top of the poster it said "INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT TEST (or game?)

There's the answer INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT WORLD CUP (IDWC)

It might seem like symantics,and this is my problem with this whole thing,but these teams are in a group below that of teams that should be in the ENWC..

In order of importance it should be RLWC,ENWC (for teams that failed to qualify for the RLWC)...And then there's the IDWC for teams that don't meet the criteria ,yet,to be eligible for the RLWC..
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
I saw a poster on Facebook for a game between the Philippines V Hong Kong xiii,across the top of the poster it said "INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT TEST (or game?)

There's the answer INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT WORLD CUP (IDWC)

It might seem like symantics,and this is my problem with this whole thing,but these teams are in a group below that of teams that should be in the ENWC..

In order of importance it should be RLWC,ENWC (for teams that failed to qualify for the RLWC)...And then there's the IDWC for teams that don't meet the criteria ,yet,to be eligible for the RLWC..

That's fair, there is a clear difference between the groups of teams (eligibility for qualifiers).

But still has nothing to do with the baffling reason it was actually canned.

Eligible but failed to qualify (based on teams that entered the qualification process for 2017, there could be more in Europe?):

Serbia
Russia
Spain
Cook Islands
Jamaica
Canada
South Africa
Malta
Greece * possibly not eligible any more
Latvia
Ukraine
 

latingringo101

Juniors
Messages
585
I saw a poster on Facebook for a game between the Philippines V Hong Kong xiii,across the top of the poster it said "INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT TEST (or game?)

There's the answer INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT WORLD CUP (IDWC)

It might seem like symantics,and this is my problem with this whole thing,but these teams are in a group below that of teams that should be in the ENWC..

In order of importance it should be RLWC,ENWC (for teams that failed to qualify for the RLWC)...And then there's the IDWC for teams that don't meet the criteria ,yet,to be eligible for the RLWC..

A tournament for full; international teams who didn't make the final RLWC would be a good start.
 

DlEHARD

Juniors
Messages
823
Hong Kong have always used the Residents tag over the last few years. But they are about to take the next step to a representative side, the Hong Kong Thunder. Residents will remain part of their development pyramid.
 

jim_57

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,365
That's fair, there is a clear difference between the groups of teams (eligibility for qualifiers).

But still has nothing to do with the baffling reason it was actually canned.

Eligible but failed to qualify (based on teams that entered the qualification process for 2017, there could be more in Europe?):

Serbia
Russia
Spain
Cook Islands
Jamaica
Canada
South Africa
Malta
Greece * possibly not eligible any more
Latvia
Ukraine

That would be the best way to do it, have an official nations (best of the rest World Cup) then a tournament with unofficial nations and invitational teams underneath that.

You could make a very decent tournament out of those you listed plus others like Phillipines, Thailand, Belgium, Czech Republic, Vanuatu, Solomon Islands etc.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
Mascords latest piece on this

By STEVE MASCORD

THE kerfuffle caused by colleague Robert Burgin’s RLW piece a couple of weeks ago is still rumbling on.

So far, the mooted rebellion of a dozen countries from the RLIF’s rule is still very much underground. There is still at least some possibility many countries will accept the offer of a fully funded tournament next year.

The way Far & Wide sees it, there is a very important line to be drawn.

I openly opposed, for instance, Penrith and Brisbane playing a game in Hawaii two years ago. My reasons were this: NRL players had demanded that spring off and Great Britain had therefore been told to stay home. Also, to be honest I was not sure NRL players on an end-of-season trip could be trusted to do more good than harm in a new territory.

But the main concern was this: expansion is too important to be done on an ad-hoc basis. It’s OK for soccer clubs to organise their pre-season and end-of-season games because soccer is widely played internationally.

Rugby league still is not.

International expansion should be part of an over-all strategy, not done in a piecemeal fashion by the competing teams – and in that respect alone I have sympathy for the RLIF in the decision not to allow Emerging Nations games to go ahead.

The games were initially intended to be curtain-raisers but would the teams involved have actually have fielded true national sides? I doubt every player would have satisfied the grandparent rule and I doubt the best players would have been available. And it was not the best countries; some of them do not have the required domestic activity to be in the World Cup qualifiers and others do.

But the RLIF did not block the tournament because of these concerns. The countries weren’t asked to stop calling the matches a “championship”. It was blocked because the World Cup asked for it to be blocked, citing exclusivity clauses.

The countries involved were allowed to continue planning for several months only to have those plans blocked. That’s why they’re angry. And they are justified in that.

Far & Wide would like to see any replacement tournament next year built into a proper structure. Perhaps a country without the proper bonafides could win a wildcard into the next World Cup qualification (although once there they would have to meet all requirements regarding the team they field).

I know that’s what the RLIF want. Let’s try to make a silk purse out of this sow’s ear.


The key point for me is bolded.
You can disagree with the ENWC and the way it was going to be done and who was going to be involved.
But ultimately the RLIF's woeful lack of process and professionalism are what the decision was made on, and I don't see how it is defensible.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
And Robert Burgin's rebuttal..


Unfortunately RLW never published this last week, which is a shame as the discourse on this is important for the international game. I have issue with a few points in this article, starting with the last line about making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Yes, that's what everyone will have to do because they ballsed it up first time around on largely unsubstantiated grounds. The issue is the emerging nations keep getting sold bloody sow's ears and, if they keep taking it, that's exactly what they'll continue to get. Each year there is another broken promise to deal with.

In terms of the ENWC being organised by the competing nations, I think everyone participating would have been happy if the RLIF wanted to organise it, but they were basically told the RLIF were happy with it, but we had to do all the legwork. The countries didn't take charge of planning ENWC to fall out of line or through a sense of rebellion. It was so shit would get done. Comparing this to the NRL in Hawaii example is problematic as the NRL give their teams ample opportunity to play throughout the year in a structured fashion. How many international games a year would happen if the RLIF alone was responsible for making them happen? They barely make games happen for the top 14 nations, let alone the remainder.

Let's be 100% honest that there was NEVER EVER a plan for a 2018 ENWC until they realised enough teams were on board to make things happen. There was no forethought of how to expose or encourage the developing nations in a World Cup year prior to that, no 'legacy' that these nations enjoyed from the 2013 World Cup, and basically little consideration at all. In terms of the comments about heritage, frankly that's a little bit insulting, and in the case of Latin American Rugby League, we're very pedantic about the record-keeping that substantiates this background, as I noted teams like Hungary, Thailand and Africa United were in recent events. In many ways, there is less chance of someone "doing a Nathan Fien", because to represent a minnow nation and get your arse kicked consistently, you have to have a real, deep, passionate connection with what you represent. Nobody gets paid and would perhaps incur several $1000s worth of expenses to represent their heritage. Our heritage records are catalogued and Dropboxed and the RLIF has open access to these folders.

My other issue is assuming an ENWC would have to be 'the best of the second tier'. The reason for ENWC to exist is promotional, first and foremost. We need to be exhibiting a pathway, an incentive and a showpiece for the sport in all continents. While we need rules in place, Rugby League has an incredible capacity to be detrimentally ideological in its approach to worldwide development. The reality of starting up leagues in foreign countries, getting these to a point where they fulfil all the RLIF criteria, staying financially viable during this period, being considered a serious sport by the public, government, other sports is reliant on being tied to the top level in some publicly visible way, not being left to wither on the vine at arm's length in the vain hope something survives and takes root. Well done to countries like Serbia who can fulfil all the RLIF criteria and have worked hard to establish their domestic competitions. It'll still be 50 years before they compete with the top teams.

We can remain concreted to strict ideologies of development systems and continue to get the same expansion results rugby league has suffered internationally in previous decades. Bringing 100s of people from developing nations to a World Cup, letting them see the splendour and spectacle of the event, the seriousness with which it is taken at the top level, the career opportunities, the tangible lifestyle and educational possibilities, would have done an infinite amount to encourage the spread of the game. Instead we are leaving these people to hang out to dry, with no feedback, no funding, no sense of what the game is like at the top level, terrible international broadcast rights and a dodgy livestream system, waiting for people to somehow stumble on the game and fall in love with it. It's lunacy. For next year's delayed ENWC we are told funding will be allocated AFTER a committee of participating nations goes away and formulates the business plan. What other global sport does that? Organise your own business plan, your own strategy, not leave it with the countries you just bent over royally. Who is in control of this situation?

Again, emphasis on bolded points by me.
 

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