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Emerging Nations World Cup

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
You are right to some degree. There are representative teams who "claim" to be representing an international region, but do NOTHING back in the motherland. They are more or less an ex pat 'boys club'.

The RLIF/RLEF and Rugby League wouldn't be in HALF of the countries it is now if it wasn't for International Teams first playing in Australia. The RLIF have allowed Full International matches in Australia before because;

1) They know those teams are legitimate International teams within RLIF rules and regulations.

&

2) Their organisations are 100% legitimate and attempting to grow the sport in their retrospective countries.

Latin Heat (as previously mentioned) have players who come from or have parents who escaped civil wars, famine or hard ships and come to Australia for a better life. By representing their nation they make their families proud and often can speak their mother tongue.
We've even had players go back to Latin American countries such as Chile, Argentina and Colombia and help spread the game there.

So if you think our team is "just a bunch of expat Aussies" then i'm afraid that's not 100% accurate. We've got coaches who were born in Latin America and help coach our various international teams, players who have come to Australia to study and played for our teams and even players who have escaped Civil War and representing the country which they escaped from years ago.

The reason we (LH) go to the RLIF and hope we get recognition for our work (International rankings, points etc) is so we feel we are rewarded for our efforts. I believe that if you are trying to spead International Rugby League (however that may be) then the International Federation should recognize that.

We've ALWAYS made clear our intentions to grow the game in Latin America, so if we have International games in Australia why is it so bad if they are considered Full Internationals? If we weren't trying to do things domestically then yes your have a point, but if you have legitimate ambitions to grow the game in the motherland then you SHOULD be rewarded for that.
Yeah, having good intentions still doesn't mean they are legit national teams though. I would like to see RL grow in Burkina Faso but if I got together a bunch of local Burkina Faso immigrants and got them to play a RL match it wouldn't be a legit Burkina Faso national team, it would be a bunch of Burkina Faso expats operating out of a different country. And until there was a legit presence and independent governing body in Burkina Faso I wouldn't try to claim it to be a full international team.

And the reason you shouldn't bill them as full international teams is exactly because of what has happened with the ENC. Nobody outside of Australia is going to recognize these as legit national teams, in fact you're likely to attract resentment from people who would otherwise be supportive of your cause. It muddies the waters, causes constitutional issues and really has no benefit at all for you apart from some weird type of self-gratification from feeling like you're playing full internationals when you're not. And yes, I know these team meet the RLIF eligibility criteria, that's not the point. The point is it's an Aussie group running puppet national teams and that can never considered to be legit until the countries in question are doing it for themselves.

Look, I know you want to develop the sport domestically in those countries. I know you want to do that. You've said it a whole bunch of times and you don't need to keep saying it, I get it. But you can't run full international teams from overseas with no established presence and no governing body in the country in question. You just can't do it. Even if they meet the on-field criteria, it's not international sport. They are rep teams until then. And that's fine and there's no problem with them being rep teams. You don't lose anything from billing them as that.
 

latingringo101

Juniors
Messages
585
Yeah, having good intentions still doesn't mean they are legit national teams though. I would like to see RL grow in Burkina Faso but if I got together a bunch of local Burkina Faso immigrants and got them to play a RL match it wouldn't be a legit Burkina Faso national team, it would be a bunch of Burkina Faso expats operating out of a different country. And until there was a legit presence and independent governing body in Burkina Faso I wouldn't try to claim it to be a full international team.

And the reason you shouldn't bill them as full international teams is exactly because of what has happened with the ENC. Nobody outside of Australia is going to recognize these as legit national teams, in fact you're likely to attract resentment from people who would otherwise be supportive of your cause. It muddies the waters, causes constitutional issues and really has no benefit at all for you apart from some weird type of self-gratification from feeling like you're playing full internationals when you're not. And yes, I know these team meet the RLIF eligibility criteria, that's not the point. The point is it's an Aussie group running puppet national teams and that can never considered to be legit until the countries in question are doing it for themselves.

Look, I know you want to develop the sport domestically in those countries. I know you want to do that. You've said it a whole bunch of times and you don't need to keep saying it, I get it. But you can't run full international teams from overseas with no established presence and no governing body in the country in question. You just can't do it. Even if they meet the on-field criteria, it's not international sport. They are rep teams until then. And that's fine and there's no problem with them being rep teams. You don't lose anything from billing them as that.

Similar things have occurred in the UK as well, Jamaica (with mainly UK based players) played Ireland and Wales I believe last year and they were sanctioned as full internationals. Ireland, Poland, Serbia, Malta and Hungary have created organisations in Australia to increase their player base but still recognize the main guys in their retrospective nations as the main guys in charge.

Yes there have been problems in places such as Italy and Greece, but MOST international governing bodies with Australian based organisations work very well together.

We had a situation ourselves where our Chile team had one identity and the domestic Chilean team had another identity to their national team, so both organisations decided to use the Domestic logo on ALL Australian international games as a mark of Respect for the efforts of the domestic Chilean organisers.

Plus the RLIF has a rule that if you want to play in the RLWC you need a minimum of domestic action to occur, so if the Australian International teams want to progress further as an organisation, the RLIF forces them to form a domestic board with Rules and Regulations.
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
Similar things have occurred in the UK as well, Jamaica (with mainly UK based players) played Ireland and Wales I believe last year and they were sanctioned as full internationals. Ireland, Poland, Serbia, Malta and Hungary have created organisations in Australia to increase their player base but still recognize the main guys in their retrospective nations as the main guys in charge.
Difference is that JRLA actually exists and has done for a long time. The best comparison in the UK would probably be BARA (British Asian Rugby Association), and they have always played rep matches as BARA/British Asian XIII rather than claiming to be a Pakistan national team or whatever.

I've never had an issue with heritage players and no doubt you guys will learn from the mistakes of Italy and Greece and do the right thing when the time comes for domestic development, I'm just talking about right now, as things stand, claiming to be playing full international matches with these teams is a bad idea. Ultimately the goal has to be to aid and complement development in the nations in question, not to run before you can walk and massively confuse things by having multiple people in different continents claiming to be staging full international matches, or staging 'full internationals' involving nations where the sport doesn't even exist yet. Heritage and rep teams, by all means do that, getting migrants and expat communities engaged with the sport is great but save the full international status for the domestics.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/rug...ion-is-in-the-air--again-20170222-guj4bj.html

In the world of international rugby league, rebellion is in the air ... again





Before discussing a worrying issue for rugby league of which most readers will not be aware, we probably need to explain another of which many will also be unaware.

The "other" point is this: in most of the world, rugby league is not recognised as a separate sport from rugby union. The International Olympic Committee and Sport Accord do not recognise rugby league at all.

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Central figure: RLIF Chairman Nigel Wood. Photo: Getty Images
This means that people starting the game in new places get no access to government funding, their players struggle to get insurance and just getting a ground on which to play can ben problematic.

In places like Italy, the United Arab Emirates and South Africa, it also means rugby union officials can just come in and say they have the right to run rugby league – or stop it being played at all.

Rugby league's bid to be recognised by Sport Accord – which will make it hard for national governments the world over to ignore it - has been before that body for about 18 months. Approval keeps getting put off, for a wide variety of reasons. It is next up for discussion in April.

To put into perspective just what level the sport is on internationally, the other pursuits applying for Sport Accord recognition at the same time were arm wrestling and poker. Now, one of the criteria for acceptance is the number of countries playing the sport.

And that's where my central point comes in; in the world of international rugby league, rebellion is in the air. Countries seem prepared to renounce the authority of the RLIF, which in turn could give Sport Accord an excuse to further delay membership.

The reason for the the disquiet – actually , make that fury – is the decision to ban "Emerging Nations" from holding their own tournament in Sydney at the same time as the World Cup this year.

Discord was privy to early talks regarding this concept and I've written about it previously. There is no disputing the following facts: One, the World Cup told a number of developing countries it could not assist them financially in running matches that were originally intended to be curtain-raisers to the main tournament. Two, the RLIF had no problem with these matches taking part if they were self-funded.

No-one expected a bunch of amateur administrators to be able to pull off travel, accommodation and insurance for a mini-tournament but guess what? They did.

Where things get a little murky is how the tournament went from being sanctioned – but unresourced – curtain-raisers to a fully-fledged championship. The developing countries themselves will tell you it was going to cost World Cup organisers too much to open the gates early so they had no choice.

They say they kept everyone informed and no alarm bells went off. The RLIF will tell you that regardless, they only approved the playing of some warm-up games and not a full tournament.

In any case, the World Cup organisers have successfully lobbied the RLIF to withdraw approval – whether this was informal or minuted – for an Emerging Nations tournament in Sydney this year.

There is clearly a fear that Malta v Greece at Campbelltown – or a fixture like that – will somehow detract from the two RLWC matches in the Harbour City, Australia v Lebanon at Allianz Stadium on November 11 and Lebanon v England at the same venue on November 4.

As a result of this apparent reversal, which the emerging nations say has come only after they raised money, booked flights and organised publicity for their tournament, all hell has broken loose.

The journalist Robert Burgin is so far the only man in rugby league history who can lay claim to starting the sport on an entire continent, South America. He has a competition named after him there and he wrote an alarming story last week in Rugby League Week.

Burgin reported that "close to a dozen" national federations were considering breaking away from the RLIF in protest, quoting un-named officials as saying they never got anything from the London-based organisation anyway.

Canada, Greece, Hungary, Hong Kong, Philippines, Thailand, Latvia, Malta, Vanuatu and Niue were all confirmed participants in this year's aborted tournament so it's fair to guess some of them are thinking of jumping ship. How embarrassing would it be in the first year of the Toronto Wolfpack for Canada to be involved in a rebel international federation?

As you should already know, the qualification for the Women's World Cup was a farce – France were kicked out and Canada included for no apparent reason and Cook Islands only went through because the other Pacific nations boycotted the qualifying tournament after being told to assemble sides only from women who could find their own way to Sydney, and who would be willing to play multiple games on one day.

On a very basic level, a rugby league international governing body preventing international rugby league being played is hard to swallow.

Now, the RLIF has offered to fund an Emerging Nations tournament next year. They weren't helping at all in 2017. And since 2018 is the NRL players' "gap year" after a World Cup, there will be some clean air, publicity and sponsorship-wise. But plenty of fingers have been burnt by what Burgin says was an 11th hour decision.

Perhaps the countries listed above can take solace from sports promoter Jason Moore. He bid for the 2021 World Cup to be held in North America. When he missed out to an English bid far more geographically limited than the last two World Cups held there, he bit his lip and accepted the 2025 tournament (which we really hope the RLIF won't also wriggle out of).

To quote sports historian Tony Collins "rugby league never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

For organisers to fear negative impact from park footy matches in a city they deliberately ignored for the World Cup is legitimately insane.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
Here's a question - what does the RLIF actually *do*?

They don't seem to really fund or assist any developing nations.

They've dithered for god knows how long on organising anything except the World Cup. Their role in the World Cup seems to be deciding where to hold it, which until recently was alternating between Australia and England.

They can't seem to find anyone interested in a World 9s despite everyone in Rugby League saying they want a World 9s.

They don't organise a regular calendar or test matches.

They haven't got RL meaningful recognition as a sport that actually exists.

I guess publishing a list of nonsensical rankings every 6 months is a pretty big job.
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,181
the day to day "developing" of the sport internationally is delegated to the RLEF & APRLC..who get their money from the RLIF
 

MKCS

Juniors
Messages
552
The only countries on OP's list I'd be interested in seeing would be Canada, Cook Islands, Greece and Philippines.

It'd be good for the game but who is paying to see games like Russia Vs Sweden or Denmark Vs Japan?
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,181
A emerging nations cup should be for the teams that tried & failed to qualify for the actual world cup...so canada,cook islands,russia,jamaica,serbia,south africa,spain then pad out the cup with some invites
 

langpark

First Grade
Messages
5,867
I see mascord is shit stiring...claiming rebellion is in the air.....f**k off lol
My thoughts exactly. Yes, people are disappointed, yes, it was mishandled, but a split over this? Come on. It would be the equivalent of Cyprus and Malta being p***ed off with FIFA and claiming they are going to break away from them.
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
So in summary a lot of people have been inconvenienced and an old guy who was trying to develop the sport has lost a bunch of money because you tried to play full internationals involving "composite teams" and heritage organizations that had no business billing themselves as full international teams. Almost like I've been telling you that this was a bad idea for over a year. Do things the right way and you will have no problems with the RLIF.
 

langpark

First Grade
Messages
5,867
I have to say, that article does put the spotlight on the daily struggle that many are facing to establish the game. It is definitely something that needs to be addressed. It was well-written and while i'm still not completely sold on the ENC concept, I do sympathise greatly with a lot of the people that were affected by this whole debacle.
 

latingringo101

Juniors
Messages
585
So in summary a lot of people have been inconvenienced and an old guy who was trying to develop the sport has lost a bunch of money because you tried to play full internationals involving "composite teams" and heritage organizations that had no business billing themselves as full international teams. Almost like I've been telling you that this was a bad idea for over a year. Do things the right way and you will have no problems with the RLIF.

The Gentlemen mentioned in the Article is a man named Carlos Varela, he is the main reason why Rugby League has begun back up in Argentina. He is also helped set up the FIRST Rugby League tournament in Mendoza, Argentina on 12th of November, 2016 with teams from Chile, Argentina and Brazil.

Carlos (like many other volunteers in Rugby League) do the hard work on the ground without earning six figure salaries all to see the greatest game expand.

As for "doing the right way and you'll have no problems" well this is what happened.

ALL teams went to the RLIF and asked if an Emerging Nations could be played. The RLIF agreed and started to make plans to officially give it the thumbs up and asked each team for $1000 to enter the tournament. The teams (without a cent from the RLIF) got 14 teams interested to play in the ENWC and basically organised a tournament without the RLIF. Teams even agreed to fly in domestic players and had even organised sponsors and ambassadors from various countries to come wittness the tournament.

The RLIF was told from the 2017 RLWC committee that the ENWC would take attention away from the Nov men's tournament and so the RLIF agreed to can it. This was after sponsors, players, volunteers and administration (for over 3 months) had been already working hard and putting their own $$$ into their teams and tournament to proceed.

So to say it was just an "inconvenience" and always a "bad idea" is a GROSS simplification of the entire situation!

These were ALL volunteers who did the RIGHT THING and wanted to revive a concept which was CREATED by Rugby League before. We went to the RLIF, asked for proper sanctioning, it was given in November 2016 and VOLUNTEERS (not 1 member of the RLIF,NRL etc) did the hard work and helped make this tournament a reality.
Then for the RLIF to turn around and can it after SO MUCH WORK and manpower had been utilised to do the job that they (RLIF) SHOULD be doing is a massive kick in the teeth for ALL the volunteers.

So I hope you can understand the depths of how deep and frustrating this situation has affected Rugby League. We have individuals threatening to leave the game and have lost their faith in the RLIF who are suppose to be the N.o 1 drivers for the game world wide.
 
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BuderusIsaBeast

Juniors
Messages
554
I personally have no interest in watching a emerging nations tournament. However if they have raised the money organised it and it costs the RLIF nothing then why can't they play. I don't see how this could harm the RLWC at all. The more countries and the more games being played the better
 

BuderusIsaBeast

Juniors
Messages
554
Would it really be a large tournament, or a credible tournament? The fake Italy and Greece teams years ago were derided and laughed at pretty much everywhere apart from Australia and IMO did a lot more harm than good for the sport, and I really don't see how this would be any different TBH.

Let's be real the Scotland, Italy, Ireland and Lebanon will be stacked with heritage players and may have one homegrown or domestic player in there teams. Your worried about fake teams in an emerging nations tournament when the World Cup proper will have plenty of them.
 

latingringo101

Juniors
Messages
585
I personally have no interest in watching a emerging nations tournament. However if they have raised the money organised it and it costs the RLIF nothing then why can't they play. I don't see how this could harm the RLWC at all. The more countries and the more games being played the better

Which is why we're baffled why the RLWC 2017 Committee thought an amateur competition run by Volunteers in Western Sydney would be more popular than a tournament supported by T.V networks and professional budget.
 
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