NRL Expansion Priorities

[The Great Dane]

except delmege wasnt involved with manly back then it was arko

Your right, my mistake.

That's because the Sea Eagles and Roosters were pretty much never going to switch, News knew that they were solidly aligned with the ARL, that's why they worked on Norths. That doesn't change the fact that without Manly and Easts, the ARL wouldn't have had the strength to take on SL in the way that they did. The Knights were also key to the ARL, but if it had been, for example, Cronulla that remained with the ARL, and Easts that switched, the battle was effectively over there and then.

You don't understand that it was the markets that held all the power, not the individual clubs or their backers.

The only things that Manly and Easts brought to the ARL's table at the time (apart from the teams themselves for the competition) was extra wealth that they could use to keep their heads above water for just that little bit longer. What the Knights and the Bears brought to the table were two majority shares in two of the strongest RL markets that were must haves if News wanted 100% control of RL in Australia.

The Hunter and Northern Sydney were the last of the in-expendable crown jewels that the ARL had to their names (the ARL had already lost QLD, WS, SS and all the other important lesser markets), the extra wealth from Manly, Easts and others to a lesser extent were the back up generator that kept the security system around the crown jewels running for a little longer, but the crown jewels were the real prize, lose all the crown jewels lose the game and they almost did.

and if the dogs had never left the ARL Super LEague wouldve had no chance.

they were the only decent sydney side they had

if bullfrog hadnt betrayed Arko i doubt it wouldve got off the ground

You have to remember that the makeup of the competition was very different back then, the teams and clubs were in very different positions to where they are now and the support for the teams was very different also.

For example at the time when the Superleague was just starting up the most successful most popular clubs with all the Superstars were the Raiders, Brisbane, Dogs, Panthers, Sharks, Sea Eagles, Bears and Dragons.

What was a very lucky coincidence for the Superleague was that of those succesful lets say key clubs of the time, the Raiders, Panthers, Dogs and Sharks were all in serious danger of going under and were all desperate for money and the Broncos were already on their side, so from the start News had the upper hand, but that's another really long post in of it's self.

So no the Bulldogs were not the only important Sydney team that the Superleague got, by today's standards maybe, but by the standards back then no the Panthers and Sharks were immensely import because the Sharks gave them close to 50% share of the SS market and the Panthers and Dogs gave them a majority share of the WS market, all they needed was a majority share of the NS market (the richest of the Sydney markets) and they had Sydney, but they couldn't convince the Bears to jump so the ARL still had a tenable foothold in Sydney.

 

[reanimate]

and if the dogs had never left the ARL Super LEague wouldve had no chance.

they were the only decent sydney side they had

if bullfrog hadnt betrayed Arko i doubt it wouldve got off the ground

Yep, that's right. The Bulldogs were key to SL.

You don't understand that it was the markets that held all the power, not the individual clubs or their backers.

The only things that Manly and Easts brought to the ARL's table at the time (apart from the teams themselves for the competition) was extra wealth that they could use to keep their heads above water for just that little bit longer. What the Knights and the Bears brought to the table were two majority shares in two of the strongest RL markets that were must haves if News wanted 100% control of RL in Australia.

The Hunter and Northern Sydney were the last of the in-expendable crown jewels that the ARL had to their names (the ARL had already lost QLD, WS, SS and all the other important lesser markets), the extra wealth from Manly, Easts and others to a lesser extent were the back up generator that kept the security system around the crown jewels running for a little longer, but the crown jewels were the real prize, lose all the crown jewels lose the game and they almost did.

Saying the markets held the power is oversimplifying the situation. That's true, to an extent, the Hunter was an incredibly valuable market any way you look at it, but what did the Bears offer? Juniors? Norths had a number, but not as many as any of the Western Sydney clubs. Money/their market? Norths had already been plotting a move to the CC, as they weren't doing all that well financially. Manly was the powerhouse club in the North, North's market wasn't all that valuable. Getting Norths was more about getting numbers in Sydney, not the market Norths held (which could be very valuable, but they were beginning to struggle at the time).

The money Manly and Easts brought wasn't a back up generator, it was the key to the fight even being able to occur- the ARL was able to stand up to SL for a time, even despite the loss of numerous valuable markets. It's true that if the ARL was to lose even one more, that Manly and Easts' money wouldn't have mattered, but Manly/Easts' resources were able to keep the ARL going despite the loss of incredibly valuable markets like Brisbane and Canterbury- the other markets the ARL held wouldn't have mattered if Manly and Easts' resources weren't there.

 

[georgesnmith]

theres a book on Super League which was a great read

and piggins had a great chapter in his book

the biggest shame was the damage it did to the game

had the game been left alone the 20 team comp wouldve been fine

most of the expansion teams we are talking about today were actually around back then

Super League set expansion back 20 years and allowed union and AFL a massive chance to catch up

if league wasnt inherently such a good game it would never have recovered to where it is today

bringing back perth and 2nd brisbane team will help im more looking at wellington and PNG. those 2 can really grow the game over the longer term

 

[TTL]

Make a 2nd tier competition with reduced teams that play mid-week that can showcase the better than state cup but worse than nrl skill level players. Add the expansion candidates to this league to test their supporter base viability.

 

[Perth Red]

Really you think a second tier is going to draw crowds? You think a second tier can afford a full time squad? You think a second tier is going to attract sponsors at the level travel and salaries will demand? Yep sounds a great idea!

Getting 20k to NRL games isn't showing enough support but getting 2k for a second tier will be?

 

[Albert Rosenfeld]

Need to move to 18 and then 20 NRL clubs ASAP. The four clubs below are urgently needed.


1. Perth
2. Brisbane II
3. Wellington
4. PNG


After that the national profile of the NRL will be completed with the licensing of Adelaide.
The international profile will be competed with the licensing of Christchurch.
Then two more Queensland teams would give the NRL more Queensland representation and balance.
With 24 clubs the expansion of the NRL should be complete. However it should then be more appropriately renamed the South Pacific Rugby League (SPRL).


5. Adelaide
6, Christchurch
7. Central Queensland
8. South Queensland IV OR Far North Queensland (Cairns)


There is really no justification for a Central Coast team. First it would overlap with Newcastle and Manly. Second there are already too many NSW teams for a competition which has national and international aspirations. An Illawarra-South Coast team (with St George back as a stand alone club) makes more sense than a Central Coast team.

Back on topic.

After reading some of the other threads on expansion, I am now of the opinion that we need an NRL team from Fiji to build the game internationally.

With virtually no investment in Fiji we have been able to attract Akuila Uate, Petero Civinoceva, Lote Tuqiri, Sisa Waqa, Marika Koroibete, and Semi Radarada who are all stars of the NRL. If we did invest in the Fiji competition and made an opening for a Fijian NRL team (subsidised by Fijian and multinational corporate money), we could build the game into the top sport of Fiji, and make Fiji a more competitive nation at the international level.

I would prefer Fiji to Central Queensland, which does not have a major population centre that could attract 20,000 plus crowds average every week to its home games. Fiji jhas a population of over a million and could probably sustain large home crowds in the long term. The distance from Sydney to Fiji is about the same as the distance from Sydney to Townsville, so flights should not be an obstacle for the NRL teams.

Thus I would make my expansion priorities:

1. Perth
2. Brisbane II
3. Wellington
4. PNG

5. Adelaide
6, Christchurch
7. Fiji
8. South Queensland IV OR Far North Queensland (Cairns)

 

[Perth Red]

The suave corridor has a population of around 330k. Many quite poor. Not sure they have a big enough base to have a income large enough to be sustainable. It would need an awful lot of investment. No doubting their natural physical abilities make them ideal for our game but better grass roots development and opportunities to be scouted by NRL clubs should be the first priority.

 

[Albert Rosenfeld]

The suave corridor has a population of around 330k. Many quite poor. Not sure they have a big enough base to have a income large enough to be sustainable. It would need an awful lot of investment. No doubting their natural physical abilities make them ideal for our game but better grass roots development and opportunities to be scouted by NRL clubs should be the first priority.

Grass roots development in Fiji should be a priority right now.

However we can do that and then plan for a Fiji NRL team after they are prepared in the Queensland Cup, like PNG Hunters are doing so successfully.

Look to an eight to ten year plan with the Qld Cup team entering within four years.

 

[oikee]

The most sensible bids and expansion has to be in the form of massive growth for the code.

At the moment and looking at where we can grow crowds and new grass-roots for juniors are these areas.

Brisbane, Perth and Wellington.
Brisbane is the best option, why, because it will grow crowd support and averages more than any other teams.
So they are first off the rank, and the third Brisbane team comes after the next two areas.
Why, because again a third team will beat any other area for crowd growth and fan averages.

Second team, Perth, why, because we need to introduce more players into the game. Perth has a 2 million population to grow by, plus TV viewing is perfect as well.
So Perth along with a good city for new sponsors plus a great city to grow sponsor partnerships for our teams on the east coast.
Same as they do for afL.

Then NZ Wellington next for much the same reasons as the Perth team. , and if any Sydney team is divided and sucked up by a change to how Sydney areas are made up, then Wellington would be the next place for a new team to go.
Brisbane 3rd team next.

Sydney has to detract for the growth of the game. Yes to grow, we need to detract into larger areas and form less teams for more solid and stronger growth.
2 teams from Sydney will be gone, or sucked into a smaller Sydney merger.

Even if the code lost 200 thousand fans because of sour grapes, we will still be adding a extra 2 or 3 million to replace the sore losers.
Nothing worse than a fan who cant except change, they were never really a fan.

 

[taipan]

The most sensible bids and expansion has to be in the form of massive growth for the code.

At the moment and looking at where we can grow crowds and new grass-roots for juniors are these areas.

Brisbane, Perth and Wellington.
Brisbane is the best option, why, because it will grow crowd support and averages more than any other teams.
So they are first off the rank, and the third Brisbane team comes after the next two areas.
Why, because again a third team will beat any other area for crowd growth and fan averages.

Second team, Perth, why, because we need to introduce more players into the game. Perth has a 2 million population to grow by, plus TV viewing is perfect as well.
So Perth along with a good city for new sponsors plus a great city to grow sponsor partnerships for our teams on the east coast.
Same as they do for afL.

Then NZ Wellington next for much the same reasons as the Perth team. , and if any Sydney team is divided and sucked up by a change to how Sydney areas are made up, then Wellington would be the next place for a new team to go.
Brisbane 3rd team next.

Sydney has to detract for the growth of the game. Yes to grow, we need to detract into larger areas and form less teams for more solid and stronger growth.
2 teams from Sydney will be gone, or sucked into a smaller Sydney merger.

Even if the code lost 200 thousand fans because of sour grapes, we will still be adding a extra 2 or 3 million to replace the sore losers.
Nothing worse than a fan who cant except change, they were never really a fan.

'With due respect your two paragraphs are a load of ignorant rubbish.

You lose juniors and as the Bears fans have shown they went to the likes of AFL and boosted their speccies,even quite a few involved with merged teams. I have had the displeasure of meeting some during my rep days.
League has taken a hammering on the North Shore.
Sour grapes.You have no concept of tribalism in rugby league .There are many fans who follow clubs before they follow the code as a whole.South Sydney showed that when they were given the flick,how many switched to other clubs.
Another 2 or 3 million fans ,that's plucked out of the air.Perth will bring in new fans ,and they will average at best 15,000.About the same as Sydney clubs and better than the Titans and cowboys you want to relocate.Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

No club should be relocated,unless they cannot continue financially in their current locale.The Sharks within 5 years will be among the top 4 or 5 financially.$43m from the development is part of the reasoning.

 

[bobmar28]

'With due respect your two paragraphs are a load of ignorant rubbish.

You lose juniors and as the Bears fans have shown they went to the likes of AFL and boosted their speccies,even quite a few involved with merged teams. I have had the displeasure of meeting some during my rep days.
League has taken a hammering on the North Shore.
Sour grapes.You have no concept of tribalism in rugby league .There are many fans who follow clubs before they follow the code as a whole.South Sydney showed that when they were given the flick,how many switched to other clubs.
Another 2 or 3 million fans ,that's plucked out of the air.Perth will bring in new fans ,and they will average at best 15,000.About the same as Sydney clubs and better than the Titans and cowboys you want to relocate.Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

No club should be relocated,unless they cannot continue financially in their current locale.The Sharks within 5 years will be among the top 4 or 5 financially.$43m from the development is part of the reasoning.

Bears fans gone to AFL? Good luck to them. NRL is more popular today than it ever was. I wonder where all the fans came from? Some Sydney teams need to be merged/relocated.

 

[VictorTheViking]

Central coast or perth

 

[CC_Roosters]

I think the central coast is as strong as it gets below nrl level for rugby league in Australia. Huge number of juniors with multiple divisions at every age group, 12 team senior comp with 3 grades plus under 19s. Also have two clubs able to self sufficiently field sides in the Ron Massey cup and nsw cup of course.

In the short term I don't think an nrl side is even neccessary to maintain this. The region deserves games and if the bears are out of the question for the arlc in the short term then I would rather a sole sydney club makes a commitment to split games with Gosford than a random collection of games.

 

[Perth Red]

No club should be relocated,unless they cannot continue financially in their current locale.The Sharks within 5 years will be among the top 4 or 5 financially.$43m from the development is part of the reasoning.

Not sure where you get this from? They got a big lump sum which has paid off MOST but not all the $13million bank loan. They are then set to eventually reap $1mill a year from other sales and retail rent. Given sharks operate on lowest income in NRL, have no major sponsors and a small fan-base how do you think they will have a higher income than bulldogs, roosters or Canberra?

 

[taipan]

Bears fans gone to AFL? Good luck to them. NRL is more popular today than it ever was. I wonder where all the fans came from? Some Sydney teams need to be merged/relocated.

Look at it this way.The Bears had a team one minute,the next they did not.
I have met fans of that team who now follow the AFL/Tahs or gave up attending games.Anyone who believes flicking a team or merging or elocating is going to get their fans in large numbers to the new entity are kidding themselves.

It is a fact whether we like to admit it or not,there are fans who follow a particular team ,and that is where the loyalty ends.

I daresay there would be even more fans today following the game,if SL had not happened.

OK lets move the Tigers to SA and test the reaction.

 

[taipan]

Not sure where you get this from? They got a big lump sum which has paid off MOST but not all the $13million bank loan. They are then set to eventually reap $1mill a year from other sales and retail rent. Given sharks operate on lowest income in NRL, have no major sponsors and a small fan-base how do you think they will have a higher income than bulldogs, roosters or Canberra?

OK I will spell it out.

Yes the $10m used to reduce the loan was to come from future profits on residential sales,expected to be $30m ATT.
As a result of the sales of stage 1,the profit estimates have now jumped to $43m.
The balance $3.5m of the outstanding bank loan,has been cleaned out from the St George Bank,and the debt taken over by a private Shark's fan,at much favourable interest rates,than the Bank charged.This can be repaid at any time.

Small fan base!!!.No smaller than Penriths,Canberra,Manly,Titans,Cowboys.And really not that much smaller than a couple of others.the Shire has new housing developmenst in the throes of construction and others being planned(eg a 2,000 project between Kurnell and Wanda being mooted.

I state among the top half dozen.Bruno Cullen also made the point,when he looked at the books.

You assume no sponsor will come on board when the ASADA issues is out of the way.Good luck with that view.

The club eventually will have zero debt and not have to rely on poker machine revenue to the extent Canberra,Roosters and Canterbury does.Still not have to seek private ownership,and retain its membership ownership.

As David Smith stated the code needs t ensure all current clubs are financially viable,befeore looking into expansion.At least the Sharks are along that track.

 

[oikee]

I think the central coast is as strong as it gets below nrl level for rugby league in Australia. Huge number of juniors with multiple divisions at every age group, 12 team senior comp with 3 grades plus under 19s. Also have two clubs able to self sufficiently field sides in the Ron Massey cup and nsw cup of course.

In the short term I don't think an nrl side is even neccessary to maintain this. The region deserves games and if the bears are out of the question for the arlc in the short term then I would rather a sole sydney club makes a commitment to split games with Gosford than a random collection of games.

When the central coast is ready to gobble up Manly and take over the whole North coast, then and only then should they get a team.
They cocked up the merger with manly, why bow down to them now with another NSW team.

NSW is a bane on the games existence. They had 20 years to grow the code, done nothing but go backwards most the clubs,. Needed a billion dollar Tv deal, and even now most clubs have their beaks out like baby birds still wanting a feed off the NRL .
Parasites, they are worse than Victoria, sucking the funds out of the economy.

You want the damm bears back, move a Sydney team their or stick the bears where the sun dont shine.
They want to move to AFL or Union, good, bye bye, weak muppets. Probably full of yobsters anyhow this area, complete muppets.

 

[oikee]

OK I will spell it out.

Yes the $10m used to reduce the loan was to come from future profits on residential sales,expected to be $30m ATT.
As a result of the sales of stage 1,the profit estimates have now jumped to $43m.
The balance $3.5m of the outstanding bank loan,has been cleaned out from the St George Bank,and the debt taken over by a private Shark's fan,at much favourable interest rates,than the Bank charged.This can be repaid at any time.

Small fan base!!!.No smaller than Penriths,Canberra,Manly,Titans,Cowboys.And really not that much smaller than a couple of others.the Shire has new housing developmenst in the throes of construction and others being planned(eg a 2,000 project between Kurnell and Wanda being mooted.

I state among the top half dozen.Bruno Cullen also made the point,when he looked at the books.

You assume no sponsor will come on board when the ASADA issues is out of the way.Good luck with that view.

The club eventually will have zero debt and not have to rely on poker machine revenue to the extent Canberra,Roosters and Canterbury does.Still not have to seek private ownership,and retain its membership ownership.

As David Smith stated the code needs t ensure all current clubs are financially viable,befeore looking into expansion.At least the Sharks are along that track.

Mate the sharks are like every other Sydney club, up to their eyeballs in debt and have huge bills to pay from all these so-called developments.
Who gives a bullocks if they can stay afloat, if they had any power they would be taking over other areas, not fighting for survival with a 4 million bill already for court cases and fines.
They are living on borrowed time, what was their blockbuster figure, with the saints, two men and a dog.
Mate the code wants to grow areas with millions of new fans, you know, big cities like Perth, Brisbane and Wellington even in areas where juniors will grow, we will not be fighting over Monday Night Shark TV crowds and viewers going backwards and averages and kids being locked out.

I love the Sharks, i love the Tiger sharks even more, the Wellington Sharks has a nice ring to it.
The code needs to weld the axe, and with John Dolye now in charge of strategy, Sharks are as good as gone.
Only a code locked into going backwards would keep 9 Sydney teams in this comp.

No company worldwide would lock themselves into Sydney the way the NRL has done.

No, it is either growth or die, and someone with guts needs to make those decisions.

As every other code is growing in every other city, the NRL cant survive without expansion and revision and solidarity brother with less teams for Sydney.
Less in this case is better.

 

[georgesnmith]

Not sure where you get this from? They got a big lump sum which has paid off MOST but not all the $13million bank loan. They are then set to eventually reap $1mill a year from other sales and retail rent. Given sharks operate on lowest income in NRL, have no major sponsors and a small fan-base how do you think they will have a higher income than bulldogs, roosters or Canberra?

think its more like 3 -4 million a year in rent each year

plus they will have sharks leagues club as well to support them

and i think they still get a share of the development profits too

sharks already get i think $1 million a year rent off fitness first that opened up there

cronulla in 5 years time will be loaded.

 

[oikee]

think its more like 3 -4 million a year in rent each year

plus they will have sharks leagues club as well to support them

and i think they still get a share of the development profits too

sharks already get i think $1 million a year rent off fitness first that opened up there

cronulla in 5 years time will be loaded.

Good, that will be nice for the Tigers to have a club to merge with who all of a sudden is oozing cash.
I dont know why everyone is fighting so hard to keep the sharks, it is not like they have won anything.
If we had to cut the Titans for the good of the game they would be gone in a heartbeat.

We got rid of the Bears, a 100 year old club, and Souths once before, i dont think 100 thousand will be out walking to get back the Sharkies.
No, now is the time to weld that axe.

I love how in 5 years time they be loaded, in 10 years watch us grow.
Mate rugby leagues time is now, if we waste this opportunity , it's all over.
We have had 20 years of Sydney running the code backwards. Now its our turn.