NRL's growth mindset points to 18th team. And it ain't Perth.

[Jim Rockford]

Great we have a sample group of three. Well if you add me in I didn’t give up on RL when we lost our club so our current data is showing 75% leave, 25% stay lol

If you had actually read my whole post you would have seen I said that I know I wasn't alone in turning my back on League. I knew a lot of Souths supporters who,like me, watched absolutely no League games at all while Souths were excluded. Also, you say you didn't stop watching when the Reds were axed. There is a massive difference between losing a club that only played three seasons to losing a club that has been around for over 100 years and who I have been supporting my whole life.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Well they didn't when North Sydney went see ya later, and the crowds at Jubilee and juniors now are not like the old days.
And when Perh Reds went,their juniors dipped dramatically and fans went to the Force.Not my comments but PRs.
Sharks have an identity with the Shire. a combo Such as the Southern Rabbotohs has little or no identity with that area.
Plus there are a lot more pursuits young ones do now ,such a surfing, basketball.
If they had started a team Southern Sydney involving Dragons and Sharks back in 1967, it would have been some sort of goer, not now.
IMO we have had enough axing and joint ventures for a city our size.If a club cannot sustain itself with no junior,no financing, and poor crowds ,then I would accept .

As an outsider looking in, I'd like to know more about the North Sydney siuation.

The Bears weren't generating massive crowds and lacked a proper home base. They also wanted to relocate out of Sydney to a smaller regional city.

I've heard people who live in the northern part of Sydney say it has a strong RU presence.

Add all of this up and it seems RL was never the truly dominant code in northern Sydney.

How many Bears fans were more into RU?

Right or wrong, RL is a major business now and can only support strong clubs that add to the pie.

I can see Manly ending up like North Sydney. Their ratings and attendances are at the low end and they don't offer anything to the competition. The same was true of North Sydney.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

My plan for Sydney would be:

Changes:

• Manly to the Central Coast
• Sydney Roosters to be the affluent club for the affluent Northern and Eastern Suburbs of Sydney and look after those regions
• Dragons to Wollongong
• Sharks to Adelaide and be named the Great Australian Bite (kidding )
• Tigers to Perth (West Coast Tigers)

Sydney NRL Clubs:

• Sydney Roosters
• South Sydney Rabbitohs
• Parramatta Eels
• Canterbury Bulldogs
• Penrith Panthers

NSW Regional NRL Clubs close enough to Sydney to rely on the market for sponsorship and fans:

• Central Coast Sea Eagles
• St George Illawarra Dragons

All traditional brands stay in the top flight for their fans to follow on TV or at away Sydney games and the associated rivalries remain. New markets are added to the NRL without having to add extra teams. The larger Sydney clubs (Roosters, Rabbits, Dogs and Eels) have room to grow into the titans of Australian sports like they should be.

 

[taipan]

Great we have a sample group of three. Well if you add me in I didn’t give up on RL when we lost our club so our current data is showing 75% leave, 25% stay lol

in reality if someone had done a study of going into NS schools and asking kids what sport they play and which team they follow then we would be able to talk from some sense of validity, but as I am not aware of any such study we can argue till the cows come home about how big the loss of removing a club is and if the replacement club actually adds more whilst the removal of another mouth to feed adds to better sustainability for the the re inning clubs in the immediate region.

and again no club is going to be removed, rightly or wrongly for the future health of the nrl.

C'mon FFS,you want me to get the NRL two create a poll?

Small samples from Dragons,Bears,Tigers and Souths fans.According to your theory ,it's only mere coincidence.You should have read or heard the comments in the media ,when clubs were turfed and joint ventured.
When a guy like Geoff Prenter (RL Week Editor)who knew more about rl, than you and me and Mollie McGee ,flicked the code then, that''s how deep the hurt was.

You continue to exhibit, complete lack of knowledge of the Sydney sporting market,particulary rugby league.

You may not have given up,because your club was a few years old.If it had been around for ages, you may well have a different view, and of course your club was not ingrained into your Perth community.
To compare a club just created and one who went to SL, with old established clubs with a tradition ,is akin to comparing Bradman to Warner.

Well mate,I can tell you from experience after 6 years at high school,5 of which Associated and Independent,union is well ingrained or was at the time, and still has a decent hold.Ask yourself why it is so popular on the Nth Shore and Eastern Suburbs, because that's where the bulk of these schools exist.
You don't have to be aware of any such study, experience the situation, which you obviously can't do ,hanging around a city thousands of kms away.
Experience is always the best guide.If you don't experience pain, you assume everything is rosy.

You at least got one thing right (round of applause), no club is now going to be removed, because we have a leader who understands tribalism and played in an area that ended up being a joint venture.
Now he may well have a rough style(hello Orange Man) but he gets things done.

I think my greatest accomplishment today ,has been not stating what I'm thinking out aloud.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Matt Johns missed an absolute golden opportunity to learn more about the mindset of PVL with regard to expansion ideals and the like - but dicked around like a schoolkid gibbering on with AFL questions relentlessly.

Cheap interview to bait people. He should have sticked to the podcast with Roach & Kent, far more insightful and entertaining.

 

[Perth Red]

C'mon FFS,you want me to get the NRL two create a poll?

Small samples from Dragons,Bears,Tigers and Souths fans.According to your theory ,it's only mere coincidence.You should have read or heard the comments in the media ,when clubs were turfed and joint ventured.
When a guy like Geoff Prenter (RL Week Editor)who knew more about rl, than you and me and Mollie McGee ,flicked the code then, that''s how deep the hurt was.

You continue to exhibit, complete lack of knowledge of the Sydney sporting market,particulary rugby league.

You may not have given up,because your club was a few years old.If it had been around for ages, you may well have a different view, and of course your club was not ingrained into your Perth community.
To compare a club just created and one who went to SL, with old established clubs with a tradition ,is akin to comparing Bradman to Warner.

Well mate,I can tell you from experience after 6 years at high school,5 of which Associated and Independent,union is well ingrained or was at the time, and still has a decent hold.Ask yourself why it is so popular on the Nth Shore and Eastern Suburbs, because that's where the bulk of these schools exist.
You don't have to be aware of any such study, experience the situation, which you obviously can't do ,hanging around a city thousands of kms away.
Experience is always the best guide.If you don't experience pain, you assume everything is rosy.

You at least got one thing right (round of applause), no club is now going to be removed, because we have a leader who understands tribalism and played in an area that ended up being a joint venture.
Now he may well have a rough style(hello Orange Man) but he gets things done.

I think my greatest accomplishment today ,has been not stating what I'm thinking out aloud.

ok if you dont like my Reds analogy, my life long club, that is older than rugby league in Australia, got relegated not once but twice then the promotion door was closed. Did I quit on my club I'd supported since a kid? Did I quit on the game because it seemed unfair that the road back to the top was no longer available? Nope I kept buying my season ticket and going along to watch them in the third division. Like I said not everyone quits the game because they dont like what has happened to it. Surew we probably did lose the majority of the 10k or so active Bears fans of the 90's but that doesnt mean we lost NS or had to if it had been better handled. Its not lik AFL or Union launched a top tier team called the NS something's. As they say "I believe the children are our future"....

Yep Union is popular there due to the demographics, not the loss of the Bears. Maybe NS isnt ever going to be a big RL area given those demographics so not such a loss after all?

Yeh who needs evidence when you can ask a mate lol

 

[Perth Red]

Matt Johns missed an absolute golden opportunity to learn more about the mindset of PVL with regard to expansion ideals and the like - but dicked around like a schoolkid gibbering on with AFL questions relentlessly.

Cheap interview to bait people. He should have sticked to the podcast with Roach & Kent, far more insightful and entertaining.

Sht wasnt it?
No "How do you feel RL fans in AFL land feel about your comments"?
No "you seem to have given up on growing the game outside of two states"?
No " is being antoagnositc to the Victorians going to help or hinder the Storm to grow"?
No " do you think we should take the fight with AFL to their doorstep instead of always a rear guard action"?
No "do you think calling AFL states a waste of money is going to help or hinder the NRl in its partnerships with those states Governments"?
No "given the massive disparity between afl funding in NRL states compared to RL funding in AFL states do you think we will fall further behind them"?
No "why does the AFL get $250 million a year more revenue than the NRL"?
Johns would have sht himself if he had been told to ask a hard question! But hey we learnt that he liked to tackle so all good eh?

What was obviously clear though is Vlandys does not believe that a state that hasnt grown up with a game will adopt another one. His naive comments about the AFL in NSW and Qnlnd might be good for a bit of chest pounding for your avg bogun RL fan but the evidence of the growth of AFL in those two states tells a very different story and one he clearly didnt want to acknowledge or is totally ignoring.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

ok if you dont like my Reds analogy, my life long club, that is older than rugby league in Australia, got relegated not once but twice then the promotion door was closed. Did I quit on my club I'd supported since a kid? Did I quit on the game because it seemed unfair that the road back to the top was no longer available? Nope I kept buying my season ticket and going along to watch them in the third division. Like I said not everyone quits the game because they dont like what has happened to it. Surew we probably did lose the majority of the 10k or so active Bears fans of the 90's but that doesnt mean we lost NS or had to if it had been better handled. Its not lik AFL or Union launched a top tier team called the NS something's. As they say "I believe the children are our future"....

Yep Union is popular there due to the demographics, not the loss of the Bears. Maybe NS isnt ever going to be a big RL area given those demographics so not such a loss after all?

Yeh who needs evidence when you can ask a mate lol

BRL fans experienced the hurt of losing their clubs. In my case, the club I lost no longer exists at any level. It does hurt and makes me angry whenever I think about what happened in 2002 to the Scorpions.

Having said that, I think our game needs to be proactive and future proof its existence instead of living day to day. Our game is propped up by broadcast revenue. Everyone and their dog knows that commercial TV and pay TV has seen its best days. The clubs that can survive without assistance will be the ones competing in 2050.

 

[LeagueXIII]

1994 The crowd avg for balmain was 7.8k, Wests 6.8k. Sydney avg around 12k. Three clubs achieved 15k.

Fast forward to 2019 and Five clubs avg 15k or more, Sydney avg around 15k. West tigers 15.9k.

add in reducing Sydney has meant space for melbourne drawing 18.2k and the potential of GC and it’s hard to say first phase rationalising of Sydney hasnt strengthened the nrl as a whole.
And all that with the nrl and clubs basically do sweet fa to actually grow crowds!

In 1994 Balmain finished last and Wests were not far ahead of them compared to Wests tigers in 2019 who were in contention for a finals spot until the very last round.. Their last do or die game in 2019 drew 19,491 against the Sharks

A fairer comparison would be Wests and Balmain's 1997 campaign in which they were both in contention for the semis until the last round.

That season both clubs drew an average 18,957 between them. Remember there was no ANZ or Western Sydney Stadium to help boost crowd numbers back then.

If you take the average of the WT's in 2019 at Leichhardt and Campbelltown, their average was only 13,130 for 6 games. Hardly a case of "less is more".

Melbourne averaged 16,104 in Melbourne. They had one game at Suncorp which boosted the average over 18k.

 

[LeagueXIII]

BRL fans experienced the hurt of losing their clubs. In my case, the club I lost no longer exists at any level. It does hurt and makes me angry whenever I think about what happened in 2002 to the Scorpions.

Having said that, I think our game needs to be proactive and future proof its existence instead of living day to day. Our game is propped up by broadcast revenue. Everyone and their dog knows that commercial TV and pay TV has seen its best days. The clubs that can survive without assistance will be the ones competing in 2050.

What was the average round attendance of BRL?

 

[LeagueXIII]

Sht wasnt it?
No "How do you feel RL fans in AFL land feel about your comments"?
No "you seem to have given up on growing the game outside of two states"?
No " is being antoagnositc to the Victorians going to help or hinder the Storm to grow"?
No " do you think we should take the fight with AFL to their doorstep instead of always a rear guard action"?
No "do you think calling AFL states a waste of money is going to help or hinder the NRl in its partnerships with those states Governments"?
No "given the massive disparity between afl funding in NRL states compared to RL funding in AFL states do you think we will fall further behind them"?
No "why does the AFL get $250 million a year more revenue than the NRL"?
Johns would have sht himself if he had been told to ask a hard question! But hey we learnt that he liked to tackle so all good eh?

What was obviously clear though is Vlandys does not believe that a state that hasnt grown up with a game will adopt another one. His naive comments about the AFL in NSW and Qnlnd might be good for a bit of chest pounding for your avg bogun RL fan but the evidence of the growth of AFL in those two states tells a very different story and one he clearly didnt want to acknowledge or is totally ignoring.

That's hard hitting RL journalism these days. Bloody joke really and no one questions it. Pathetic.

 

[LeagueXIII]

their average was only 13,130 for 6 games. Hardly a case of "less is more".[/QUOTE]

Supply and demand.

Scarcity of a product in demand increases it's value.

Besides how many Sydney clubs were sustainable, let alone made a profit, in 1994? Maybe 1 or 2 were sustainable if we are being generous. What was the average attendance in Sydney in 1994? Was it even 10k, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't, and it definitely wasn't over 15k.
Things are significantly better now than they were in 1994, and in Sydney's case there being less teams is a big part of that.

Back in those days the clubs were like crabs in a bucket, going back to a situation like that would be a massive regression.

The main thing that brings the big bucks is the TV audience, now tell me have the mergers grown the TV audience. I'd take a guess and say no.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

What would you anticipate crowds to grow to?

20k ave would be nice.

What was the average round attendance of BRL?

Not much. Facilities were poor and the competition was raided from the 50s until 87 as NSW gov allowed licenced clubs to have pokies. People had their clubs though.

 

[MugaB]

BRL fans experienced the hurt of losing their clubs. In my case, the club I lost no longer exists at any level. It does hurt and makes me angry whenever I think about what happened in 2002 to the Scorpions.

Having said that, I think our game needs to be proactive and future proof its existence instead of living day to day. Our game is propped up by broadcast revenue. Everyone and their dog knows that commercial TV and pay TV has seen its best days. The clubs that can survive without assistance will be the ones competing in 2050.

Logan scorpions merged, just like the mergers or Relocations you bang on about every single day regarding sydneys clubs, but forget thats exactly where the BRL is now, and the broncos are the "affluent" entity you procaim roosters should be... all bullocks
There was nothing wrong with the BRL, barr the money wasnt there and the NswRL f**ked up by only adding broncos instead of 3-4 QLD teams from that comp

 

[LeagueXIII]

Logan scorpions merged, just like the mergers or Relocations you bang on about every single day regarding sydneys clubs, but forget thats exactly where the BRL is now, and the broncos are the "affluent" entity you procaim roosters should be... all bullocks
There was nothing wrong with the BRL, barr the money wasnt there and the NswRL f**ked up by only adding broncos instead of 3-4 QLD teams from that comp

Comparing apples and oranges. Logan were only in it for a year or two before the Broncos.

valleys v redcliffe at Neumann Oval would be lucky to get 3K.

 

[The Great Dane]

By creating less you are giving people the option to find other things to do with their time.

Ha ha, that’s simply not how supply and demand works.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Logan scorpions merged, just like the mergers or Relocations you bang on about every single day regarding sydneys clubs, but forget thats exactly where the BRL is now, and the broncos are the "affluent" entity you procaim roosters should be... all bullocks
There was nothing wrong with the BRL, barr the money wasnt there and the NswRL f**ked up by only adding broncos instead of 3-4 QLD teams from that comp

Logan Scorpions never merged with Southern Suburbs. The Logan City Council ordered the seniors to vacate Meakin Park at the end of 2002. The juniors were allowed to play until the end of 2003.

Southern Suburbs added Logan to their name, but it never had anything to do with Logan Scorpions. I phoned the football department of Souths to ask them this about 8 years ago.

 

[LeagueXIII]

20k ave would be nice.


Not much. Facilities were poor and the competition was raided from the 50s until 87 as NSW gov allowed licenced clubs to have pokies. People had their clubs though.

Facilities at all Sydney grounds were crap too...have a look at Cumberland Oval...it was a disgrace. Seating facilities were pathetic.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Ha ha, that’s simply not how supply and demand works.

Exactly

 

[The Great Dane]

their average was only 13,130 for 6 games. Hardly a case of "less is more".

The main thing that brings the big bucks is the TV audience, now tell me have the mergers grown the TV audience. I'd take a guess and say no.

Wrong again Bub.

Ratings are significantly bigger now than then they were pre-2000, and I’d bet you anything that the mergers average ratings are better now than the average ratings of any of the individual clubs that make them up.