NRL's growth mindset points to 18th team. And it ain't Perth.

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Comparing apples and oranges. Logan were only in it for a year or two before the Broncos.

valleys v redcliffe at Neumann Oval would be lucky to get 3K.

Logan played C Grade before 1988, reaching the 1987 GF where they lost to Redcliffe. The next year they were added to Reserves and A Grade in an expanded 10 team BRL. They were forced to sign an extremely expensive 15-year lease to play out of Meakin Park, despite wanting to be based out of Cronulla Park. The lease was so expensive it was greater than the combined total of every other sports club in Logan. It crippled the club from day 1. If the club had have entered the league 5 years earlier and given a decent deal it would still be around.

 

[The Great Dane]

Exactly

You can flood the market with as many chocolate ice cream products as you like, it’ll have little to no impact on the demand for vanilla or strawberry ice cream.

In fact all it’ll do is create more competition in the chocolate ice cream market and make it harder to be successful in that market, in other words it’ll over saturate it.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Facilities at all Sydney grounds were crap too...have a look at Cumberland Oval...it was a disgrace. Seating facilities were pathetic.

BRL clubs played at parks with grassed embankments for fans to sit on. They didn't have revenue from pokies to do much with their facilities. Labor introduced pokies in the 90s.

 

[LeagueXIII]

You can flood the market with as many chocolate ice cream products as you like, it’ll have little to no impact on the demand for vanilla or strawberry ice cream.

In fact all it’ll do is create more competition in the chocolate ice cream market and make it harder to be successful in that market, in other words it’ll over saturate it.

How much emotion/Passion is attached to the ice creams?

 

[LeagueXIII]

BRL clubs played at parks with grassed embankments for fans to sit on. They didn't have revenue from pokies to do much with their facilities. Labor introduced pokies in the 90s.

Sydney club grounds were owned by councils

 

[LeagueXIII]

Logan played C Grade before 1988, reaching the 1987 GF where they lost to Redcliffe. The next year they were added to Reserves and A Grade in an expanded 10 team BRL. They were forced to sign an extremely expensive 15-year lease to play out of Meakin Park, despite wanting to be based out of Cronulla Park. The lease was so expensive it was greater than the combined total of every other sports club in Logan. It crippled the club from day 1. If the club had have entered the league 5 years earlier and given a decent deal it would still be around.

I followed the Brisbane comp via RLW.

infact why wasnt the Brisbane GF shown in Sydney pre Broncos...i recall i could watch the Sth Aust Aussie Rules GF but no League from Brisbane.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Wrong again Bub.

Ratings are significantly bigger now than then they were pre-2000, and I’d bet you anything that the mergers average ratings are better now than the average ratings of any of the individual clubs that make them up.

Thanks Bub...i bet you they arent.

wrong again...bub

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I followed the Brisbane comp via RLW.

infact why wasnt the Brisbane GF shown in Sydney pre Broncos...i recall i could watch the Sth Aust Aussie Rules GF but no League from Brisbane.

Sydney considered the BRL to be an inferior competition and wanted to retain the old residents series when the QRL pushed for it to be converted to Origin.

Combined Brisbane winning the Knock-Out Cup and Queensland dominating Origin with a team made up of players mainly from the BRL made a mockery of that claim.

It's a shame that the NSWRL and QRL didn't work together to create a national competition in the 80s.

 

[Perth Red]

In 1994 Balmain finished last and Wests were not far ahead of them compared to Wests tigers in 2019 who were in contention for a finals spot until the very last round.. Their last do or die game in 2019 drew 19,491 against the Sharks

A fairer comparison would be Wests and Balmain's 1997 campaign in which they were both in contention for the semis until the last round.

That season both clubs drew an average 18,957 between them. Remember there was no ANZ or Western Sydney Stadium to help boost crowd numbers back then.

If you take the average of the WT's in 2019 at Leichhardt and Campbelltown, their average was only 13,130 for 6 games. Hardly a case of "less is more".

Melbourne averaged 16,104 in Melbourne. They had one game at Suncorp which boosted the average over 18k.

well if you’re going to cherry pick a time the clubs were good the Wests tigers avg’d nearly 18k for three years in a row, and that doesn’t include the two sets of away fans that the balmain and west
avg enjoys. Overall it’s obvious we didn’t lose much in merging the clubs and what it did do was make one more sustainable club. Where do you think the balmain tigers as a stand alone entity would be now given they couldn’t even afford a couple of mill a year to pay into the joint venture?

 

[The Great Dane]

How much emotion/Passion is attached to the ice creams?

It makes absolutely no difference, the underlying principle is the same.

BTW, you’d be surprised how passionate people can become about ice cream, or anything else for that matter. If you can think of it there’re people out there that devote their lives to it.

Thanks Bub...i bet you they arent.

wrong again...bub

You’re just denying reality at this point...

 

[The Great Dane]

well if you’re going to cherry pick a time the clubs were good the Wests tigers avg’d nearly 18k for three years in a row, and that doesn’t include the two sets of away fans that the balmain and west
avg enjoys. Overall it’s obvious we didn’t lose much in merging the clubs and what it did do was make one more sustainable club. Where do you think the balmain tigers as a stand alone entity would be now given they couldn’t even afford a couple of mill a year to pay into the joint venture?

Where do you reckon Wests would be!

I doubt their club would have survived long enough to become successful had they not have merged.

 

[Perth Red]

How much emotion/Passion is attached to the ice creams?

lots, until they melt then no one cares

 

[MugaB]

well if you’re going to cherry pick a time the clubs were good the Wests tigers avg’d nearly 18k for three years in a row, and that doesn’t include the two sets of away fans that the balmain and west
avg enjoys. Overall it’s obvious we didn’t lose much in merging the clubs and what it did do was make one more sustainable club. Where do you think the balmain tigers as a stand alone entity would be now given they couldn’t even afford a couple of mill a year to pay into the joint venture?

Well there would be i say 50% of fans and members from both sides of the merger that gave up on that WT merger, so instead of the combined crowd averages of both wests magpies and balmain tigers, you get the same amount.. but yes crowds have dwindled regardless, the game was going south fast, i feel with the new rules and proposed stadium upgrades they might get better, but the early 90s was setting the barr of where league was going up until the SL war came to ruin that rise, im pretty sure rugba leg would be going pretty good if the late 90s issues didnt affect the whole league, but again last year was a massive wake up call for all clubs to find ways to be more sustainable without grants.... even though they are still receiving them, maybe a 2nd teir national comp is what's needed to put pressure on clubs to remain successful off field, and promoting the best of the 2nd teir can force the troubled clubs to think outside the box, a club like brisbane broncos can easily be replaced by one of the other 3 bids if they were up and running in a 2nd tier comp.
Not saying it would ever happen, but its what happens with players who dont perform, why not clubs?

 

[LeagueXIII]

It makes absolutely no difference, the underlying principle is the same.

BTW, you’d be surprised how passionate people can become about ice cream, or anything else for that matter. If you can think of it there’re people out there that devote their lives to it.

..

Of course there is hundreds of thousands of them

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Balmain, Illawarra, St George and Wests were in dire straights. Dragons enjoyed on field success, but they were struggling off field. Steelers couldn't draw a crowd. Magpies were broke and couldn't draw sponsors and players to their club. Changing demographics was squeezing the Tigers out.

BTW, you’d be surprised how passionate people can become about ice cream, or anything else for that matter. If you can think of it there’re people out there that devote their lives to it.

Coca cola vs Pepsi comes to mind.

even though they are still receiving them, maybe a 2nd teir national comp is what's needed to put pressure on clubs to remain successful off field, and promoting the best of the 2nd teir can force the troubled clubs to think outside the box, a club like brisbane broncos can easily be replaced by one of the other 3 bids if they were up and running in a 2nd tier comp.
Not saying it would ever happen, but its what happens with players who dont perform, why not clubs?

This is a good idea. If there's light at the end of the tunnel for the non-NRL clubs to reach the big time then disgruntled fans who gave up on the game when their team was relegated to 2nd tier might come out of the woodwork.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

With or without Super League, not all clubs were capable of making the transition from semi-pro football to full time professionalism. The ARL didn't have the capital to prop everyone up and the smaller, poorly run clubs who weren't prepared for the transition were bankrupting themselves to survive in a changing landscape, much like the BRL clubs did in the 80s.

Clubs like Cowboys, Crushers, Reds and Warriors were set up to fail and all of them would be dead if News Ltd refused to bail 3 of them out of trouble. It's a pity News Ltd didn't hang onto Perth, as they had potential. Sharks, Bulldogs and Panthers took the smart approach and survived.

Whether we want to admit it or not, the game is a business these days and there's no charity in capitalism. Brands come and go all the time. Those that don't have enough consumers aren't bailed out when they run into financial problems.

I'm not convinced all 9 Sydney clubs in the NRL will be financially viable in 2050. Broadcast revenue is going to drop as people stop watching traditional TV. Companies will refuse to invest in clubs that aren't a ratings success on a dying medium. Attendances and memberships are the future, and not all Sydney clubs are in a position to increase their market share. Not all 9 Sydney clubs will have a modern stadium to play out of and it'll be hard to get future generations to patronise dilapidated infrastructure when they're accustomed to state of the art facilities.

My money is on the Roosters owning the CBD, North Shore and Northern Beaches. Manly will be gone.

Rabbitohs, Dragons and Sharks will be left to fight it out for Southern Sydney, with Souths having the edge as they've embraced the inner-west. I think 2 of these clubs might merge. Could end up with South Sydney Dragons in a merger between St George and Souths or the Rabbitohs outlive Dragons and Sharks to claim their territory.

 

[taipan]

ok if you dont like my Reds analogy, my life long club, that is older than rugby league in Australia, got relegated not once but twice then the promotion door was closed. Did I quit on my club I'd supported since a kid? Did I quit on the game because it seemed unfair that the road back to the top was no longer available? Nope I kept buying my season ticket and going along to watch them in the third division. Like I said not everyone quits the game because they dont like what has happened to it. Surew we probably did lose the majority of the 10k or so active Bears fans of the 90's but that doesnt mean we lost NS or had to if it had been better handled. Its not lik AFL or Union launched a top tier team called the NS something's. As they say "I believe the children are our future"....

Yep Union is popular there due to the demographics, not the loss of the Bears. Maybe NS isnt ever going to be a big RL area given those demographics so not such a loss after all?

Yeh who needs evidence when you can ask a mate lol

I repeat one more time till I get sick of it.So sorry for the mean ,accurate things I posted, which you have difficulty handling.
If you can find where I suggested every rusted on rl fan, who lost a club left the code, then as Pauline Hanson would say"please explain.'
I put it to you Geoff Prenter was a rusted on rl fan ,a hell of a lot longer than you, and indeed older.His RL magazine Rugby league Week was extremely popular.When SL came in and the code was split, yet the code continued ,he said enough is enough.
I can tell you this if my club was flicked, I might watch the occasional game, but certainly wouldn't pay bucks to attend games.And my passion for the code I suggest is a lot longer than yours.To an extent that when my club was in dire financial trouble,I spent a decent amount of money (for me) in taking up a debenture to provide financial backing.Then when they got into the sh*t again.I spent $200 on buying a wall plaque, plus spent humungous amounts over the years in membership and merchandising.No bigoting just spelling it out.The money spent over the decades(including going to a Challenge Cup Final) at Wembley, could have been spent womanising ,or going to exotic places

So for some armchair general to attempt to educate me on his knowledge of Sydney fan's attitudes ,because I provided a few samples, not 20K as he'd wish, yet if he had half a brain would have been well aware by reading and listening to media responses on club removals and joint ventures, the general attitudes of fans and their deep feelings.

FFS the loss of the Bears accelerated the reduced interest in rl(and there was some ) in Nth Sydney.You can't see it, because you look at these decisions with rose coloured glasses.

I've now put myself in time out, until I can play nice with others.This may take a while in your case.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I repeat one more time till I get sick of it.So sorry for the mean ,accurate things I posted, which you have difficulty handling.
If you can find where I suggested every rusted on rl fan, who lost a club left the code, then as Pauline Hanson would say"please explain.'
I put it to you Geoff Prenter was a rusted on rl fan ,a hell of a lot longer than you, and indeed older.His RL again Rugby league Week was extremely popular.When SL came in and teh code was split, yet teh code continued ,he said enough is enough.
I can tell you this if my club was flicked, I might watch the occasional game, but certainly would pay bucks to attend games.And my passion for the code I suggest is a lot longer than yours.To an extent that when my club was in dire financial trouble,I spent a decent amount of money (for me) in taking up a debenture to provide financial backing.Then when they got into the sh*t again.I spent $200 on buying a wall plaque, plus spent humungous amounts over the years in membership and merchandising.

So for some armchair general to attempt to educate me on his knowledge of Sydney fan's attitudes ,because I provided a few samples, not 20K as he'd wish, yet if he had half a brain would have been well aware by reading and listening to media responses on club removals and joint ventures, the general attitudes of fans and their deep feelings.

FFS the loss of the Bears accelerated the reduced interest in rl(and there was some ) in Nth Sydney.You can't see it, because you look at these decisions with rose coloured glasses.

I've now put myself in time out, until I can play nice with others.This may take a while in your case.

No one wants to lose their team. Sport is emotional and tribal, so killing a team will cause turmoil.

But you have to admit, 9 teams in a city is a lot and it may become untenable over the next 30 years. With the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if gambling is outlawed just like cigarette companies were prohibited from advertising in the 90s. No pokies would put Leagues Clubs out of business. No bookies will take a lot of money out of the game.

When Winfield were no longer allowed to pump money into the game during the 90s we saw a few Sydney clubs struggle to put a competitive team on the field. Pay TV entered the landscape in the mid-90s which could have set the game up nicely, but the 2 idiots in charge, Arthurson and Quayle, handed the pay TV to Kerry Packer for $0. We know what happened next.

 

[taipan]

No one wants to lose their team. Sport is emotional and tribal, so killing a team will cause turmoil.

But you have to admit, 9 teams in a city is a lot and it may become untenable over the next 30 years. With the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if gambling is outlawed just like cigarette companies were prohibited from advertising in the 90s. No pokies would put Leagues Clubs out of business. No bookies will take a lot of money out of the game.

When Winfield were no longer allowed to pump money into the game during the 90s we saw a few Sydney clubs struggle to put a competitive team on the field. Pay TV entered the landscape in the mid-90s which could have set the game up nicely, but the 2 idiots in charge, Arthurson and Quayle, handed the pay TV to Kerry Packer for $0. We know what happened next.

It used o be a lot more clubs with a far smaller population.There comes a time when a code's management says, there has to be a point where we can;t keep undercutting our base.
If you had little competition from other forms of sport either as competing or watching, you could do it.
Tell me about struggling clubs ,exhibit A the Sharks.Yet now they have no debt, one working licensed club and in a year or two a major one refurbished.So clubs can turn things around.
My biggest concern was the wasted $20-$25m rugby league had it in it kitty circa 1994,With money doubling every 10 years (est),that could well have meant an additional $100m to expand into Perth and Adelaide.

No one new the effect of the new technologies on the game..Clubs at times are their own worst enemies, spending frivolously as though there's no tomorrow, that hogties the game.

And I will continue to repeat, having rationalisation in Sydney has not meant a giant leap in crowd averages,certainly has not increased junior numbers.Maybe if ATT all clubs had decent covered stadium before entering the league, we wouldn't have such a problem.And we had the money to spend much more on juniors.

I agree with your point ,if a club cannot continue,due to finances or lack of crowds, and moving was the only option, the that has to happen.Doesn't mean the remaining fans will get on board en masse.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

It used o be a lot more clubs with a far smaller population.There comes a time when a code's management says, there has to be a point where we can;t keep undercutting our base.
If you had little competition from other forms of sport either as competing or watching, you could do it.
Tell me about struggling clubs ,exhibit A the Sharks.Yet now they have no debt, one working licensed club and in a year or two a major one refurbished.So clubs can turn things around.
My biggest concern was the wasted $20-$25m rugby league had it in it kitty circa 1994,With money doubling every 10 years (est),that could well have meant an additional $100m to expand into Perth and Adelaide.

No one new the effect of the new technologies on the game..Clubs at times are their own worst enemies, spending frivolously as though there's no tomorrow, that hogties the game.

And I will continue to repeat, having rationalisation in Sydney has not meant a giant leap in crowd averages,certainly has not increased junior numbers.Maybe if ATT all clubs had decent covered stadium before entering the league, we wouldn't have such a problem.And we had the money to spend much more on juniors.

I agree with your point ,if a club cannot continue,due to finances or lack of crowds, and moving was the only option, the that has to happen.Doesn't mean the remaining fans will get on board en masse.

I don't know if it would work these days, but making the NSW Cup and Queensland Cup more prestigious would solve many of these issues. Merge the 2 competitions into a national Division 1 league.

Sydney will be bigger in 2050, but it remains to be seen how many of its new people will play and watch RL. We need to make our game more appealing to kids and parents.

Our game needs to work with local government to get RL advertising into public parks. Have a section of each park designated for passing and kicking training. Have targets on a wall for patrons to aim at and award points based on how close they get to the target. There could be sensors on the board to decipher where the ball hit and a scoreboard that shows their score. If I was a kid I would use it. Put signs of famous players next to it and have written instructions on how to pass and kick properly. Promote it as getting kids active and socialising. That's how you get kids and parents to choose RL over the other codes.