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Rumours and Stuff

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,480
No, I said sacking the coach wouldn't change anything. Our club needed to build slowly and steadily, and sacking coaches would just fuel our reputation for instability.

We still can't match it with the top clubs but we're getting there.

Merkin you said all we had to do was sack the coach and three quarters of our squad and we'd win the comp.

Bullsh*t, you said a lot more then that, but like everything you say, you alter and maneuver all the angles and scenarios so that you can ultimately say you were right.

You clearly said that we are not a club that can leg it with the big boys and never will. There was never a "we just need the right people in charge and slowly we will be the equals or better then the best" in any of your analysis.

If there ever was, it would of been a very short throw away line that I and everyone else would have missed. Your main mantra has always been, Parra can't this and Parra can't that because we just don't have the resources or wealth to compete.

Mine has always been, we have the best resources and wealth of any club in the NRL and the only thing holding us back were the people in charge of it who squandered it all or never knew how to leverage and use those resources properly.

Now that we have people running the joint, who have a clue, watch how we go into overdrive over the next 10 years. We will be invincible.

You can't touch dis, Merkin!
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
84,864
Bullsh*t, you said a lot more then that, but like everything you say, you alter and maneuver all the angles and scenarios so that you can ultimately say you were right.

You clearly said that we are not a club that can leg it with the big boys and never will. There was never a "we just need the right people in charge and slowly we will be the equals or better then the best" in any of your analysis.
I don't think we'll ever be consistently the best club in the NRL. That's the Storm. The Roosters are next and Souths aren't far behind. I expect the Broncos to get up there too - their current slump is a massive outlier for them.

But we don't need to be the strongest club to win a premiership. Over the past decade a few clubs have won comps who we can match for 'winnability' (for want of a better term).

Think of it like this. In a given year a number of clubs are a chance of winning the comp (look at pre-season odds for evidence of this). Now, none of us could quantify that chance for sure, but there are no foregone conclusions, so we must accept that a number of clubs are a chance of firstly making the finals and then winning enough consecutive finals matches to take out the premiership. The chances for each club must add up to 100%

As a thought experiment let's say the chances for 2021 look like this:

20% Panthers
20% Rabbitohs
20% Storm
10% Eels
10% Raiders
10% Roosters
5% Titans
3% Warriors
1% Knights
1% Sharks

If we're a 10% chance of winning the comp it means we're a 90% chance of not winning the comp. Therefore it's highly likely we won't win the comp this year (assuming the 10% is true, and whether we win the comp or not, we'll never know in hindsight what our chances were).

But suppose we were a 10% chance of winning the comp every year for ten years? We'd be decent odds of winning one in that time frame. How about over 20 years? It would be almost inevitable that we'd jag one.

Now how about the Storm? Over the past 20 years they've won five grand finals (including the two stripped). You could reasonable say they are 25% chance of winning the grand final in any given year. Now, that chance might fluctuate above/below 25% from year to year (e.g. this year they are quite weak compared to their baseline, but still might be a 20% chance of winning the comp) but over the long run, assuming the club itself doesn't get any weaker/stronger compared to its rivals, they will average a grand final win every four years.

These are all numbers I've plucked to illustrate a point (though Melbourne Storm being 25% chance of winning in a given year is drawn from their history over the preceding two decades), and obviously the Eels haven't been a 10% chance of winning the comp over the past 20 years. But I genuinely think we are about a 10% chance of winning this year. If we can stay this strong we will eventually win another one. We might have a year where the stars align and our chance of winning that year get up well above 10%. But the point I want to make is that we are a better chance of winning the comp this year than we have been, probably for a long time. Are we just having an uncharacteristically strong year that will disappear next year or the year after when we revert to our mean chance of winning? (For argument's sake let's say we are a long term 1%-chance-of-winning-in-a-given-year club.) I don't think so. I think the stability of coaching staff, and the consistent finals appearances and the stable/professional electoral cycle we now have mean that 10%-chance-per-year is our new normal. Premierships are no longer a once a century event for us. They might be once a decade now. But we can possibly get even stronger than that. Maybe we will become an every-five-years premiership winning club, like the Roosters have been since 2002. But to get there we first had to get to where we are, and consolidate that. Personally I still think a few things would need to change to match the Roosters over the long term, but we sure as shit will be able to outperform them (or the Storm) in a single season now. That year could be 2021. It could be next year. We don't know, but I do think a premiership is inevitable now. I just hope it doesn't take another 20 years.
 

Gary Gutful

Post Whore
Messages
51,898
I also feel better about our long term prospects and am hopeful it is here to stay. Some positives:
  • The dickhead factions have f**ked off (or at least shut up).
  • Our recruitment for the most part has been solid.
  • No real off field bullshit to worry about.
  • We are slowly getting rid of our soft underbelly on the field (although it still seems to turn up in finals).
Still an opportunity to build on this and become part of the conversation when considering the elite clubs in the game. To be honest though, I'd just be happy with a premiership and that now seems more likely.
 
Messages
17,214
I also feel better about our long term prospects and am hopeful it is here to stay. Some positives:
  • The dickhead factions have f**ked off (or at least shut up).
  • Our recruitment for the most part has been solid.
  • No real off field bullshit to worry about.
  • We are slowly getting rid of our soft underbelly on the field (although it still seems to turn up in finals).
Still an opportunity to build on this and become part of the conversation when considering the elite clubs in the game. To be honest though, I'd just be happy with a premiership and that now seems more likely.

bring back the plumber!!
 

hindy111

Post Whore
Messages
59,081
I don't think we'll ever be consistently the best club in the NRL. That's the Storm. The Roosters are next and Souths aren't far behind. I expect the Broncos to get up there too - their current slump is a massive outlier for them.

But we don't need to be the strongest club to win a premiership. Over the past decade a few clubs have won comps who we can match for 'winnability' (for want of a better term).

Think of it like this. In a given year a number of clubs are a chance of winning the comp (look at pre-season odds for evidence of this). Now, none of us could quantify that chance for sure, but there are no foregone conclusions, so we must accept that a number of clubs are a chance of firstly making the finals and then winning enough consecutive finals matches to take out the premiership. The chances for each club must add up to 100%

As a thought experiment let's say the chances for 2021 look like this:

20% Panthers
20% Rabbitohs
20% Storm
10% Eels
10% Raiders
10% Roosters
5% Titans
3% Warriors
1% Knights
1% Sharks

If we're a 10% chance of winning the comp it means we're a 90% chance of not winning the comp. Therefore it's highly likely we won't win the comp this year (assuming the 10% is true, and whether we win the comp or not, we'll never know in hindsight what our chances were).

But suppose we were a 10% chance of winning the comp every year for ten years? We'd be decent odds of winning one in that time frame. How about over 20 years? It would be almost inevitable that we'd jag one.

Now how about the Storm? Over the past 20 years they've won five grand finals (including the two stripped). You could reasonable say they are 25% chance of winning the grand final in any given year. Now, that chance might fluctuate above/below 25% from year to year (e.g. this year they are quite weak compared to their baseline, but still might be a 20% chance of winning the comp) but over the long run, assuming the club itself doesn't get any weaker/stronger compared to its rivals, they will average a grand final win every four years.

These are all numbers I've plucked to illustrate a point (though Melbourne Storm being 25% chance of winning in a given year is drawn from their history over the preceding two decades), and obviously the Eels haven't been a 10% chance of winning the comp over the past 20 years. But I genuinely think we are about a 10% chance of winning this year. If we can stay this strong we will eventually win another one. We might have a year where the stars align and our chance of winning that year get up well above 10%. But the point I want to make is that we are a better chance of winning the comp this year than we have been, probably for a long time. Are we just having an uncharacteristically strong year that will disappear next year or the year after when we revert to our mean chance of winning? (For argument's sake let's say we are a long term 1%-chance-of-winning-in-a-given-year club.) I don't think so. I think the stability of coaching staff, and the consistent finals appearances and the stable/professional electoral cycle we now have mean that 10%-chance-per-year is our new normal. Premierships are no longer a once a century event for us. They might be once a decade now. But we can possibly get even stronger than that. Maybe we will become an every-five-years premiership winning club, like the Roosters have been since 2002. But to get there we first had to get to where we are, and consolidate that. Personally I still think a few things would need to change to match the Roosters over the long term, but we sure as shit will be able to outperform them (or the Storm) in a single season now. That year could be 2021. It could be next year. We don't know, but I do think a premiership is inevitable now. I just hope it doesn't take another 20 years.

Once Bellany goes Storm fold to rest of pack. He is the glue.

Penrith with the junior system in place and demographics will continue to be a powerhouse for a while.

NZ might become another once the Duke sets them up.

Parra will be a strong club also for a while.
 

Eelogical

Referee
Messages
22,502
I also feel better about our long term prospects and am hopeful it is here to stay. Some positives:
  • The dickhead factions have f**ked off (or at least shut up).
  • Our recruitment for the most part has been solid.
  • No real off field bullshit to worry about.
  • We are slowly getting rid of our soft underbelly on the field (although it still seems to turn up in finals).
Still an opportunity to build on this and become part of the conversation when considering the elite clubs in the game. To be honest though, I'd just be happy with a premiership and that now seems more likely.
What about our Centre Of Excellence?
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,480
I don't think we'll ever be consistently the best club in the NRL. That's the Storm. The Roosters are next and Souths aren't far behind. I expect the Broncos to get up there too - their current slump is a massive outlier for them.

But we don't need to be the strongest club to win a premiership. Over the past decade a few clubs have won comps who we can match for 'winnability' (for want of a better term).

Think of it like this. In a given year a number of clubs are a chance of winning the comp (look at pre-season odds for evidence of this). Now, none of us could quantify that chance for sure, but there are no foregone conclusions, so we must accept that a number of clubs are a chance of firstly making the finals and then winning enough consecutive finals matches to take out the premiership. The chances for each club must add up to 100%

As a thought experiment let's say the chances for 2021 look like this:

20% Panthers
20% Rabbitohs
20% Storm
10% Eels
10% Raiders
10% Roosters
5% Titans
3% Warriors
1% Knights
1% Sharks

If we're a 10% chance of winning the comp it means we're a 90% chance of not winning the comp. Therefore it's highly likely we won't win the comp this year (assuming the 10% is true, and whether we win the comp or not, we'll never know in hindsight what our chances were).

But suppose we were a 10% chance of winning the comp every year for ten years? We'd be decent odds of winning one in that time frame. How about over 20 years? It would be almost inevitable that we'd jag one.

Now how about the Storm? Over the past 20 years they've won five grand finals (including the two stripped). You could reasonable say they are 25% chance of winning the grand final in any given year. Now, that chance might fluctuate above/below 25% from year to year (e.g. this year they are quite weak compared to their baseline, but still might be a 20% chance of winning the comp) but over the long run, assuming the club itself doesn't get any weaker/stronger compared to its rivals, they will average a grand final win every four years.

These are all numbers I've plucked to illustrate a point (though Melbourne Storm being 25% chance of winning in a given year is drawn from their history over the preceding two decades), and obviously the Eels haven't been a 10% chance of winning the comp over the past 20 years. But I genuinely think we are about a 10% chance of winning this year. If we can stay this strong we will eventually win another one. We might have a year where the stars align and our chance of winning that year get up well above 10%. But the point I want to make is that we are a better chance of winning the comp this year than we have been, probably for a long time. Are we just having an uncharacteristically strong year that will disappear next year or the year after when we revert to our mean chance of winning? (For argument's sake let's say we are a long term 1%-chance-of-winning-in-a-given-year club.) I don't think so. I think the stability of coaching staff, and the consistent finals appearances and the stable/professional electoral cycle we now have mean that 10%-chance-per-year is our new normal. Premierships are no longer a once a century event for us. They might be once a decade now. But we can possibly get even stronger than that. Maybe we will become an every-five-years premiership winning club, like the Roosters have been since 2002. But to get there we first had to get to where we are, and consolidate that. Personally I still think a few things would need to change to match the Roosters over the long term, but we sure as shit will be able to outperform them (or the Storm) in a single season now. That year could be 2021. It could be next year. We don't know, but I do think a premiership is inevitable now. I just hope it doesn't take another 20 years.

Part 1

Or we can cheat the cap again and this time get really lucky and get 4 or 5 once in a generation players including a GOAT and a GOAT coach, before we get caught, so we only need to release just one of them and then continue on business as usual.

Once Bellamy is gone, Melbourne's standards will also start to change and I don't think for the better. Their roster is really solid now without being unbeatable, but will kick up a notch once Harry is back in no doubt. However their previous success rate is so impressive due to the long term stability that the GOAT, Bellamy and all the other wonder kids that that roster afforded them.

That isn't the case now, I expect the Storms dominance over the past 15 odd years is about to get back to normal like other well run clubs, but not insanely successful like this previous stellar period. Also I don't think Harry will be as stable an influence as Smith was only due to injury and longevity

I believe that they will be a level down from the Roosters at best, but probably not even that, because if they can't pick the eyes out of QLD the way they were able to under Bellamy, then they will be like the rest of us, hit and miss. Remember, they just won the lottery with Papenhuyzen, since they were shopping him around only 2 years ago and no other club wanted him. Talk about LUCK. Even Bellamy didn't think he was up to it.

But more to the point the second Bris team is going to be a big and detrimental game changer for the Storm. They will have a real fight on their hands recruitment wise once they come in. So it will leave them with maybe NZ, but everyone is scouting there too so, who knows? At the end of the day, they will be less likely to be picking up unspotted champions the way they have in the past. Kids will rather stay in their backyard then move to another State, if they don't have to.

So in about 2-3 years you will start to see a different Storm from the one under the Bellamy/Smith era. Still decent, but hardly world beating as they were. Kind of like Parra after our golden era, but less like falling off a cliff, due to not having an idiot running their club or useless and disrupting factions holding them to ransom, but still lesser then they were under the handful of genius players that they had.

The only real long term super clubs the way I see it, are Parra, Roosters(until Politis drops of his perch) and the Broncos if they can rediscover their mojo(coach) who can set them up long term. Otherwise it is really just us the Rooster and the Panthers(who I will get to a little later) for now. All other clubs will swing up and down like they always have on the backs of once in a generation type of players that they have been luckily enough to procure. We on the other hand are like a Broncos of yesteryear. We have it all. We just need stability and we will rise above all the rest.

Manly will be sh*t now for a very long time that that crop of great players of the early 2000's came through and a Des at the peak of his powers. The Dogs are making noises again, but it will be a few years yet before we know how they will fare but I doubt that they will recapture the Dogs of war type of long term success of before. Souths will do OK, because of Rusty, but again, unless they find a great coach that can give them the gravitas that attracts great players, and with the loss of Reynolds, then who will pick up the slack?

The Tiger's? Don't make me laugh, unless they can resurrect Benji and Farah then, they will linger for many years to come. The Dragon's, again unless they can unearth a champion or two playmakers that set the NRL world alight then they are also rans too. Sharks ditto. that leaves New Castle and the Panthers.

The Knights are building steadily and could eventually become a real power in the next 2-3 years that is sustainable for a decade or more and lets not forget that they have a very strong and rich leagues club now to back them. So yeah they should become a power club, IF they can somehow find a top quality half to lead them after Pearce is done.

That leave the Panthers who are now the Powerhouse club of the NRL. They have so much young talent that they will be up for at least the next 10 years and the talent doesn't look like stopping either. Gould has really worked his magic out there. I believe we will be gaging our success against theirs and the Roosters over the next decade.

Continued...
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,480
Part 2

If we compare favourably with them, then I think we will be doing just fine on the Premiership front. The QLD teams are either in a building faze(Titans are an unknown entity at present) or in the doldrums that will take a while to get out of. In the short to medium we have around a 5 year window right now that we should be one of the top 2 or 3 teams. With any luck we should jag a title. Over this same period, we have Arthur Junior coming through and unless I am a terrible judge, I think he will be a real talent, so if I am right, our success will be sustained for the long haul as long as we can keep him.

Time will tell of course, but we now have way to many great ingredients to not succeed. Players respond favourably to a stable strong club on and off the field. We won't be needing to chase over priced stars like so many other clubs will need to do. Our roster should be able to maintain its high quality for many years to come.

Like I said, we are now slowly becoming the new Go To Club. If we restructure our juniors like the Panthers have, we will only get stronger still and become outright kings of the universe.

Note: If Matt Burton becomes the superstar half that everyone believes he can be, then all of a sudden, the Dogs become a go to destination and with an aggressive and proactive admin and coach, they could surprise all and be a force in around 3-4 years. But they need that type of thing to happen, otherwise players will want mega bucks to go there and we know what the outcome is when that happen. He does look like a star on the rise though.

Also what should help us and the other apex clubs is that we can always rely on picking the eye teeth out of the other weaker clubs talent, just like we did to NQC's this week. Ah ain't life grand when you are at the top?

Well enough crystal ball gazing and you know what they say? Man plans and the footy Gods laugh.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
84,864
@TheRam I think your posts here are reasonable, but they are looking at a more short term view of the NRL and its clubs. You're ignoring the ability of clubs to mitigate randomness over time.

You talk as if the Storm were just lucky that Bellamy and Smith came along, or that they were just lucky they were able to continually retain these guys in the face of demand from other clubs. Penrith were lucky that Fittler came along but it was almost inevitable that he ended up at the Roosters or Manly (who were a very different club at the time). How many of Penrith's current stars will be poached away in the coming years? How many of them will cost Penrith more to keep than they should, and end up being surrounded by reserve graders a la DCE and the Trbojevics? You'll note Manly were unable to keep AFB. Do you think the Storm or Roosters would've been forced to let him go?

Suaali is from the Penrith junior catchment, yet signed his junior contract with a stronger club in Souths. Then when the Chooks came knocking Souths weren't able to keep him. Harry Grant is the best young hooker in the game (daylight second and Reed Mahoney third). Do you think it's just coincidence that he emerged at the Storm right about the time Smith retired? Cronk leaves and Munster steps up. Slater retires and here's Papenhuyzen. If he hadn't worked out they already had Jahrome Hughes ready to play fullback. Do you reckon they will have a shit coach after Bellamy is gone? When they find another good one do you think Souths/Penrith/Parra will just be able to poach him if they need a new coach?

And how important is the head coach anyway? Stuart, Maguire and Green have all won premierships. I reckon most coaches could with some luck and a strong enough roster and support staff. You talk about getting Arthur some more help but from where? The best assistant coaches will all be at the Storm and Roosters. If they leave to a weaker club it will be to take up a head coaching role, not to be an assistant. Think Barrett and Kearney. Big face is back at the Storm sitting next to Bellamy on game day. Blah blah witches hats. Craig Fitzgibbon seems happy where he is. These big clubs don't rely on luck to fill their coaching and playing ranks. They are inevitably strong in these areas because of their recruitment/retention advantages.

These advantages hold true over time, and change slowly. Ten years ago Manly were a powerhouse and we were in decline. The current reversal didn't happen overnight, and coaching merry-go-rounds at the two clubs were obviously symptomatic rather than causal.
 

hindy111

Post Whore
Messages
59,081
@TheRam I think your posts here are reasonable, but they are looking at a more short term view of the NRL and its clubs. You're ignoring the ability of clubs to mitigate randomness over time.

You talk as if the Storm were just lucky that Bellamy and Smith came along, or that they were just lucky they were able to continually retain these guys in the face of demand from other clubs. Penrith were lucky that Fittler came along but it was almost inevitable that he ended up at the Roosters or Manly (who were a very different club at the time). How many of Penrith's current stars will be poached away in the coming years? How many of them will cost Penrith more to keep than they should, and end up being surrounded by reserve graders a la DCE and the Trbojevics? You'll note Manly were unable to keep AFB. Do you think the Storm or Roosters would've been forced to let him go?

Suaali is from the Penrith junior catchment, yet signed his junior contract with a stronger club in Souths. Then when the Chooks came knocking Souths weren't able to keep him. Harry Grant is the best young hooker in the game (daylight second and Reed Mahoney third). Do you think it's just coincidence that he emerged at the Storm right about the time Smith retired? Cronk leaves and Munster steps up. Slater retires and here's Papenhuyzen. If he hadn't worked out they already had Jahrome Hughes ready to play fullback. Do you reckon they will have a shit coach after Bellamy is gone? When they find another good one do you think Souths/Penrith/Parra will just be able to poach him if they need a new coach?

And how important is the head coach anyway? Stuart, Maguire and Green have all won premierships. I reckon most coaches could with some luck and a strong enough roster and support staff. You talk about getting Arthur some more help but from where? The best assistant coaches will all be at the Storm and Roosters. If they leave to a weaker club it will be to take up a head coaching role, not to be an assistant. Think Barrett and Kearney. Big face is back at the Storm sitting next to Bellamy on game day. Blah blah witches hats. Craig Fitzgibbon seems happy where he is. These big clubs don't rely on luck to fill their coaching and playing ranks. They are inevitably strong in these areas because of their recruitment/retention advantages.

These advantages hold true over time, and change slowly. Ten years ago Manly were a powerhouse and we were in decline. The current reversal didn't happen overnight, and coaching merry-go-rounds at the two clubs were obviously symptomatic rather than causal.

I doubt Souths are a stronger club then Penrith. It may of been a case where PANTHERS new what the guy was like and knew it would create a bidding war they just didn't want to get involved in considering how many young talented juniors they have.
Why would they want to pay some 17lyd 500k+ when they have Kikau.
 
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