Toulouse Franchise bid for SL

[ParraEelsNRL]

why would it though

toulose is far enough away from Peripgnan not to get the same fans so i cant see how it will impact on cats other than maybe losing some players.

les cats are in favour of toulose getting in now.

plus a strong toulose club will help les cats get stronger from 2009 on.

realistically cant see much chance of it hurting them

You know what humans are like, if one part falls, the whole thing is gone, we always look for the worst, and RL is King when it comes to this, I know they have the money, I know they have the ground, I know they have everything they need, but the only thing I can't see is a decent support base, that's what worries me, some of their games have been pathetic in regards to spectators, I know years ago they got good crowds, but they are mostly old now, where is the razzmatazz for the next generation?

The union team gets 20,000+ all the time, just because they do doesn't mean the X111 side will, just look at the Broncquins in London or the Leeds Tykes compared to the Rhinos.

What makes it look worse for me is the fact that a team like Pia with a population of 7,000 gets a bigger crowd than Toulouse now, and Toulouse has 1.5 million people around the area.

At Least with 3 more years, Toulouse can work on everything and can have it all in place when the final whistle is blown, going into a SL season without knowing if anyone is going to turn up is a big problem for me, I love the game and I think it can be sold to anyone, but I don't like taking chances when it could destroy all others around it.

I can see the benefits of a second team and they are many, but I still think we should wait 3 more years to let Les catalans grow their roots deeper.

 

[dallymessenger]

You know what humans are like, if one part falls, the whole thing is gone, we always look for the worst, and RL is King when it comes to this, I know they have the money, I know they have the ground, I know they have everything they need, but the only thing I can't see is a decent support base, that's what worries me, some of their games have been pathetic in regards to spectators, I know years ago they got good crowds, but they are mostly old now, where is the razzmatazz for the next generation?

The union team gets 20,000+ all the time, just because they do doesn't mean the X111 side will, just look at the Broncquins in London or the Leeds Tykes compared to the Rhinos.

What makes it look worse for me is the fact that a team like Pia with a population of 7,000 gets a bigger crowd than Toulouse now, and Toulouse has 1.5 million people around the area.

At Least with 3 more years, Toulouse can work on everything and can have it all in place when the final whistle is blown, going into a SL season without knowing if anyone is going to turn up is a big problem for me, I love the game and I think it can be sold to anyone, but I don't like taking chances when it could destroy all others around it.

I can see the benefits of a second team and they are many, but I still think we should wait 3 more years to let Les catalans grow their roots deeper.

fair enough but i still reckon 09.

they are stronger than crusaders and i think they are fair shot too.

UTC crowds were much to write home about in the elite, and theyve grown to 7000+

this is one of those things where a leap of faith is required.

theyve missed out already twice.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

UTC had crowds around 2,500 on average and they merged with another strong catalan team (St Esteve?), plus the whole area is heartland for RL, Toulouse is not as strong, look what happened with Paris, I don't want that to happen again.

 

[dallymessenger]

UTC had crowds around 2,500 on average and they merged with another strong catalan team (St Esteve?), plus the whole area is heartland for RL, Toulouse is not as strong, look what happened with Paris, I don't want that to happen again.

paris has never been RL heartland even in the glory days of the 30s.

the PSG club had players playing the game for the club then returning and playing for their local team.

PSG wont have the resources behind it toulose will have.

in the 70s apparently toulose used to share games with the soccer side and got massive crowds ie over 50,000.

a well financed and marketed club, playing in the summer would capture a good part of the marketplace. and it is an area where RL is not a foreign sport.

its not just the area going for it but their chairman has good connections with councils, businesses etc. the group they took with them to meet the RFL was really impressive.

i agree with ECT. if they do it on the criteria stated they will rank quite highly.

france, les cats and crusaders in SL, imagine how good international RL would grow.

with france in the quad nations in 2009, toulose will only help that

 

[screeny]

You know what humans are like, if one part falls, the whole thing is gone, we always look for the worst, and RL is King when it comes to this, I know they have the money, I know they have the ground, I know they have everything they need, but the only thing I can't see is a decent support base, that's what worries me, some of their games have been pathetic in regards to spectators, I know years ago they got good crowds, but they are mostly old now, where is the razzmatazz for the next generation?

The union team gets 20,000+ all the time, just because they do doesn't mean the X111 side will, just look at the Broncquins in London or the Leeds Tykes compared to the Rhinos.

What makes it look worse for me is the fact that a team like Pia with a population of 7,000 gets a bigger crowd than Toulouse now, and Toulouse has 1.5 million people around the area.

At Least with 3 more years, Toulouse can work on everything and can have it all in place when the final whistle is blown, going into a SL season without knowing if anyone is going to turn up is a big problem for me, I love the game and I think it can be sold to anyone, but I don't like taking chances when it could destroy all others around it.

I can see the benefits of a second team and they are many, but I still think we should wait 3 more years to let Les catalans grow their roots deeper.

It's funny, but for me some of the points of caution you raise are in fact positives, not negatives.

That Toulouse think they have a strong case, and have been able to put together a strong case to the RFL, while having such rubbish attendances, means that the other areas, the tangible areas, of their application are solid, such as finances, written support from the Conseil, the Marie, local industry, facilities, airport partnerships etc.

Also, that they get a pittance threw the turnstiles in a city of 1.5 million is also a strength in my opinion: given top flight RL the crowd potential is there, clearly, much more so than a small town that punches above its weight such as Pia.

I don't buy this 'drag Les Cats down' argument either. One entity is separate from the other and if Toulouse fails then Les Cats, a fair distance away, won't be directly affected.

SL is a pretty robust business now and the days of boom and bust seem to be in the past. And for RL to be able to say that is something.

 

[marv]

its very similar.

as this quote shows :

Clubs applying to join the 2009 Super League competition will be assessed against the following four areas:

• Stadium facilities.
• Finance and business performance.
• Commercial and marketing.
• Playing strength including junior production and development.

The fact that certain clubs applying for a license potentially may not have played in Super League before will also be taken into account.


the chairman of the club said the franchise application met every point needed to which the rfl will examine

I know this Dally hence the ](*,)

Its not helping with the information in the trade or national press either

 

[marv]

I don't buy this 'drag Les Cats down' argument either. One entity is separate from the other and if Toulouse fails then Les Cats, a fair distance away, won't be directly affected.

its not that, the fact remains les catalan havent finished above 10th and around 50% of the run on 13 are Antipodean.

There just isnt the players for 2 teams, and before you start to reel off names such as Guigue, Saddoui or Bertezhene, if they were good enough then they would still be at Catalan, they either didnt want the big time or they wernt good enough.

Theres no doubt Catalan need some imports but I think the main onus should be on Catalan reaching the playoffs reguarly before we even consider Toulouse.

 

[screeny]

its not that, the fact remains les catalan havent finished above 10th and around 50% of the run on 13 are Antipodean.

There just isnt the players for 2 teams, and before you start to reel off names such as Guigue, Saddoui or Bertezhene, if they were good enough then they would still be at Catalan, they either didnt want the big time or they wernt good enough.

Theres no doubt Catalan need some imports but I think the main onus should be on Catalan reaching the playoffs reguarly before we even consider Toulouse.

Well over 50% of the 17 are French though, so you're being deliberately tricky by just citing the run on side. And before this season, or last, men such as Touxegas, Raguin, Duport, Khattabi, Stacul and Gossard wouldn't have been considered suitable players, but the full time environment is what is crucial for players to fully develop.

Anyway, that is spectacularly missing the point. Expansion should be about strategically growing RL, and whether 50% or more or less of a French side are French has very little to do with that.

Will more money come into French RL because of Toulouse? Will more clubs be created; more teams be fielded by existing clubs; more players; more juniors; more media; will the national side improve due to the larger pro player pool, and will that success then lead to more money, then more clubs, more teams, more players etc etc

Concentrating on whether a club has 8 locals starting is not important.

 

[marv]

Well over 50% of the 17 are French though, so you're being deliberately tricky by just citing the run on side.

No Im not Im stating a fact that a higher percentage of the run on side is not French, the French players are not more than squad players.

Even at 50% its not enough for me or for the French natioanl team to improve it they dont put player (like bosc) in key positions.

And before this season, or last, men such as Touxegas, Raguin, Duport, Khattabi, Stacul and Gossard wouldn't have been considered suitable players, but the full time environment is what is crucial for players to fully develop.

A job in stating the obvious awaits.
In fact you have almost proved my point, where are Toulouse suppopsed to find French players to supplement the Imports they will need?

Catalan have released a fair number of French players for whatever reasons and chances are some will go this year the jury is out on Khattabi and Julien Touxagas.

Anyway, that is spectacularly missing the point.

so my suggestion that another French side added to the comp now would not have enough French players, despite the current side not having enough French players, certainly in key positions, is spectacuarly missing the point :?:

Expansion should be about strategically growing RL.

Which is precisley what your not doing by hastily adding another French side, despite the current one having never made the playoffs and still IMO without enough French players.

Will more money come into French RL because of Toulouse? Will more clubs be created; more teams be fielded by existing clubs; more players; more juniors; more media; will the national side improve due to the larger pro player pool, and will that success then lead to more money, then more clubs, more teams, more players etc etc

I'm sure it would, from what I have seen Catalans have certainly done that, but it is a gamble and I dont feel France is ready to take that gamble yet.

 

[dallymessenger]

its not that, the fact remains les catalan havent finished above 10th and around 50% of the run on 13 are Antipodean.

There just isnt the players for 2 teams, and before you start to reel off names such as Guigue, Saddoui or Bertezhene, if they were good enough then they would still be at Catalan, they either didnt want the big time or they wernt good enough.

Theres no doubt Catalan need some imports but I think the main onus should be on Catalan reaching the playoffs reguarly before we even consider Toulouse.

why should reaching the finals affect a 2nd french team? they made the final of the CC cup.

if their bids is one of the top 14 submitted in 2009, why wait?

not every good RL player in france wants to play for peripgnan. toulose will find the players.

more easy for toulose to find 6 - 10 french players than english clubs to find the extra 70 english players to get down to the new quotas by 2012

 

[dallymessenger]

Well over 50% of the 17 are French though, so you're being deliberately tricky by just citing the run on side. And before this season, or last, men such as Touxegas, Raguin, Duport, Khattabi, Stacul and Gossard wouldn't have been considered suitable players, but the full time environment is what is crucial for players to fully develop.

Anyway, that is spectacularly missing the point. Expansion should be about strategically growing RL, and whether 50% or more or less of a French side are French has very little to do with that.

Will more money come into French RL because of Toulouse? Will more clubs be created; more teams be fielded by existing clubs; more players; more juniors; more media; will the national side improve due to the larger pro player pool, and will that success then lead to more money, then more clubs, more teams, more players etc etc

Concentrating on whether a club has 8 locals starting is not important.

spot on bit in bold.

with a quad nations in 2009 with france in it, a 2nd SL club in france will enhance the international game

 

[S.S.T.I.D]

Just in regards to crowds, what do Toulouse usually get through the gates?

It couldn't be significantly worse than Celtic, they struggle to get 1K.

 

[dallymessenger]

Just in regards to crowds, what do Toulouse usually get through the gates?

It couldn't be significantly worse than Celtic, they struggle to get 1K.

Parra knows these better than me, but its around 1500 i think.

crusaders are at that this year in NL1 as well.

crusaders had one of the highest crowds averages in NL2.

 

[screeny]

Spracklen on TRL has said that Zalduendo was assured by the RFL that onfield performances this year would have no bearing on the SL application - and rightly so. We're supposed to be getting away from the situation where our business depends exclusively on success on the field, but is supported by more sound foundations, as listed in the application criteria.

So, this means that Toulouse's bid should be bolstered by all the non-playing advantages the club has.

 

[langpark]

Parra knows these better than me, but its around 1500 i think.

crusaders are at that this year in NL1 as well.

crusaders had one of the highest crowds averages in NL2.

I think that's being generous, I doubt they'd get more than a few hundred most weeks.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

I think that's being generous, I doubt they'd get more than a few hundred most weeks.

A lot of the newspapers the French guys scan over at Rugbyforumxiii usually have the attendances on them, a crowd figure that pops up a lot is 1,500.

They probably average around 1,000 while other clubs average 2,500-3,500 and some way down at a couple of hundred.

Some of the guys are starting to put the crowd figures in more these days, so hopefully in the not to distant future we can see if the French League is growing.

 

[langpark]

Yeah it's always hard when official crowd figures aren't released, because they seem to get bigger and bigger after the match, just like the old fisherman who tells his mates how the big of a fish he caught.

 

[marv]

why should reaching the finals affect a 2nd french team? they made the final of the CC cup.

What is the point in having 2 struggling french teams?
Why not just have one succesful one?
Two french teams in the bottom 5 of SL is only going to serve to make them look sub-standard to the 'cappers, and there is a glut of people wanting not just Catalans but Celtic and Toulouse to fail.

I just dont get the running before walking.

if their bids is one of the top 14 submitted in 2009, why wait?

I would agree there, we shall find out in due time if that is the case, I personally dont think their application will be one of the strongest, you obviously do.

not every good RL player in france wants to play for peripgnan. toulose will find the players.

again, this is just your opinion, my opinion is that if there were French players who want the big time its there for them already

more easy for toulose to find 6 - 10 french players than english clubs to find the extra 70 english players to get down to the new quotas by 2012

6-10? there gonna need at least 15 French players, even if those players are only to make up the squad.

and BTW the "70" players figure you have plucked out of the air will need to be introduced over the next 3 years, roughly about 30 players per year spread over 12-14 clubs, dosent seem too much of a problem. Toulouse need to find an entire squad within the next 8 months.

 

[crimpo]

Some facts on Celtic Crusaders attendances

This year - 4 home NL/NRC games - they average 1190 and have topped a thousand for each fixture. That's up 11% on last year. Last year most of their fixtures got 800-900 fans tho they had 2805 on Millenium Magic weekend and 3441 for the free admission game against Oldham.

From the start the Crusaders have aimed to build from the bottom up - and so far its working out. Its not spectacular but it is growth. They had 682 their first season (29 of 34 among the clubs), 1069 their second season (25 of 34 - in their division they were behind Barrow, Featherstone, Oldham & York). Currently they average 1190 (19 of 34).

But if we decide this thing on crowds alone Salford, Widnes and Leigh would be well clear of Toulouse anyway...

 

[In-goal]

I realy hope that TO get a franchise, it would be great for the growth of the sport world wide let alone just in France.

If the RFL can assist the FFRXIII to regain some of the lost ground then the game will be alot stronger, one must realise that it's not a dream now to see French players plying their trade in the NRL.