17th TEAM

[Perth Red]

And after the 25 year head start, their(AFL) Tv ratings in the Nth States are still crap.With all the promotions,PR ,giveaways, draft picks, huge sums expended..

Are you really suggesting afl doesn’t have a stronger presence in nrl states than nrl has in afl states? Tv viewers isnt the be all and end all of a sports ambitions Lol

 

[taipan]

Are you really suggesting afl doesn’t have a stronger presence in nrl states than nrl has in afl states? Tv viewers isnt the be all and end all of a sports ambitions Lol

Why would I be suggesting that.The point I made is despite the huge sums of money outlaid for the expansion teams in the Nthn States,their Tv ratings are crap.The Swans have been here 38 years, much longer than the Storm in Melbourne.
When the bulk of your revenue comes fromTV deals, TV viewers are a big factor.To ignore that point is to LOL.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

How many Titans' contracted players are affiliated with Tweed Heads Seagulls? If they're not playing first grade they could spend the week running clinics in schools in northern NSW.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Bringing this back to expansion - The Warriors bring a lot financially to the NRL, true.. but IMO a 2nd NZ team won't bring as much to the table as a Perth, or even an Adelaide team - and I say that as a Kiwi who'd love to see 2 or 3 NRL clubs based here in NZ.

Perth has 2 million people, Adelaide more than a million & getting towards 1.5 - those are BIG concentrated markets, AFL-centric or not. You could say "Yes, but a rivalry between two Kiwi NRL clubs will be huge".. but Perth and Adelaide have rusted-on rivalries across a number of sports against other state capitals - Adelaide V Melbourne would be huge in tiddlywinks.

I'm fine with waiting our turn until Australia has a truly national NRL footprint first.

Adelaide metro only has 1.33 million. The City of Brisbane has 1.23 million. Brisbane metro has 2.5 million. There isn't any real grassroots support for the game in Adelaide either. I don't know if they can sustain a team, at least not yet.

 

[Perth Red]

Why would I be suggesting that.The point I made is despite the huge sums of money outlaid for the expansion teams in the Nthn States,their Tv ratings are crap.The Swans have been here 38 years, much longer than the Storm in Melbourne.
When the bulk of your revenue comes fromTV deals, TV viewers are a big factor.To ignore that point is to LOL.

so their expansion must have hurt their tv deals? Oh hang on.....
If you can still get more. money and expand establishing a foothold in enemy territory then you are doing something right I guess?

 

[Perth Red]

Adelaide metro only has 1.33 million. The City of Brisbane has 1.23 million. Brisbane metro has 2.5 million. There isn't any real grassroots support for the game in Adelaide either. I don't know if they can sustain a team, at least not yet.

of course they can’t, the point is they never will unless RL has a strategy to grow Interest in the game.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

of course they can’t, the point is they never will unless RL has a strategy to grow Interest in the game.

I want the game to grow, but we have to be realistic. Soccer is pretty well established in Perth and Adelaide and the crowds for their A-League clubs are shit.

Perth is light years ahead of Adelaide when it comes to RL, but is there a guarantee that it can attract more than 10,000 people to 12 home games each year?

The only team that has drawn decent attendances over there in recent times has been the Warriors, and that's because of the large NZ expatriate pop. I'd like to see some of the TV money used to fund a NSW Cup team from Perth and one from Adelaide to give locals something to aspire to and a pathway to the NRL. I think that's the best you can hope for right now. You've got to crawl before you can walk.

 

[ash the bash]

Can anyone get past the Courier Mail pay wall ? Article about Redcliffe.

Redcliffe Dolphins end long-standing association with Broncos and strike deal with Warriors

 

[jim_57]

The only reason that they are playing games in Wagga is because it was quid pro quo for funding from the NSW government to build the club's centre of excellence.

And yes it is a massive waste of time and energy that won't achieve anything for either the Raiders (aside from the money) or RL in the long term.
It won't build a steady fan-base for the Raiders in Wagga, and it won't do much of anything for RL locally in Wagga in the long term.

If you want to make a significant long term impact for the sport in country NSW (or anywhere else) you need a local solution to a local problem, and that means getting people supporting local teams.

It's a bad idea because A. the resources it would take would be better used on the GC, and B. for the effort and investment that it takes the return is not worth it.

They'll waste days and thousands of dollars, that could have been spent on the GC, doing appearances all over Northern NSW trying to woo people the vast majority of whom will rarely if ever attend a game and are extremely unlikely to regularly spend money on the club in any form.

For the same effort they could carpet bomb the GC with marketing and community engagement, where every person that they get on board is significantly more likely to become a member/season ticket holder, or at least attend games, and is more likely to buy merchandise and just spend money on the club just in general.

Without derailing this thread entirely I really couldn't disagree more with most if what you've said. I grew up in an area 700kms from the nearest NRL team, you're trying to dismiss what these areas bring to NRL clubs as a waste of time because they can't attend every game? Do you even have any proof how many of these fans go to games every year? Or how much merchandise they buy? Is a tshirt purchased in Broadbeach worth more than one purchased in Ballina? If anything smaller towns are more receptive to visits from NRL clubs because it's a big thing, I still remember Clinton Schifcofske coming to my primary school in Parra gear in about grade 1 or 2 FFS.

How is the Titans marketing in Northern NSW within 3-4 hours drive and in their identified catchment a waste of time compared to say the Cowboys running community programs in Mackay, Cairns or Mt Isa? Or the Broncos in Rockhampton or Toowoomba?

Also how many players/staff do you think clubs send to these things? They're perfectly capable of keeping the vast majority in the Gold Coast so the "wasted days" point misses the mark.

Growing customers in one area doesn't have to be at the expense of all others.

Disagree about the Wagga situation as well, you're serving up opinion as fact. It could very well lead to a lot of local kids becoming Raiders fans for life. Having a strong fan base in a reasonable sized city/town less than 3 hours drive from Canberra looks pretty valuable to me.

 

[taipan]

so their expansion must have hurt their tv deals? Oh hang on.....
If you can still get more. money and expand establishing a foothold in enemy territory then you are doing something right I guess?

Not much use having extra on TV deals, if the expansion teams in Nthn States are not performing on the TV where the bulk of the revenue comes.IOW costing more in outlays.Not just my view but it seems many within the AFL.
38 years and still having sh*t Tv ratings ,with all the money in promotion thrown around.

If the TV ratings were growing decently after 38 years and with all the financial backing ,you'd have an argument.If people are not interested in decent numbers in enemy territory, year after year, you are throwing good money after bad.And BS about membership numbers by GWS doesn't fool many.

 

[Perth Red]

I want the game to grow, but we have to be realistic. Soccer is pretty well established in Perth and Adelaide and the crowds for their A-League clubs are shit.

Perth is light years ahead of Adelaide when it comes to RL, but is there a guarantee that it can attract more than 10,000 people to 12 home games each year?

The only team that has drawn decent attendances over there in recent times has been the Warriors, and that's because of the large NZ expatriate pop. I'd like to see some of the TV money used to fund a NSW Cup team from Perth and one from Adelaide to give locals something to aspire to and a pathway to the NRL. I think that's the best you can hope for right now. You've got to crawl before you can walk.

Not sure what soccer crowds has to do with nrl clubs?
How could you guarantee it? Your asking for something that is impossible to know until it is tried. The only evidence we can go on is the crowds for RL events in Perth and generally they have been very healthy.
That simply not true, we had 39k to the double header, have sold out Souths games, sold out international had a healthy crowd for the England World Cup game, sold out origin, avg’d around 15k for other clubs.
A nsw cup team is a bit pointless unless it is part of a strategy for an nrl club.

 

[Perth Red]

Not much use having extra on TV deals, if the expansion teams in Nthn States are not performing on the TV where the bulk of the revenue comes.IOW costing more in outlays.Not just my view but it seems many within the AFL.
38 years and still having sh*t Tv ratings ,with all the money in promotion thrown around.

If the TV ratings were growing decently after 38 years and with all the financial backing ,you'd have an argument.If people are not interested in decent numbers in enemy territory, year after year, you are throwing good money after bad.And BS about membership numbers by GWS doesn't fool many.

your kind of missing the point, whilst expansion clubs may not dramatically increase tv audiences in their home state they add extra content that is viewed nearly as much. So gws v carlton gets as many viewers as dockers v carlton etc.
Storm v Souths rated higher than broncos v roosters this round.

Fans attending and buying memberships, kids playing the game, sponsors coming on board media covering the game etc are equally relevant kpis for expansion the Fact their tv deals keep trumping ours is a plus as well I suppose.

 

[taipan]

your kind of missing the point, whilst expansion clubs may not dramatically increase tv audiences in their home state they add extra content that is viewed nearly as much. So gws v carlton gets as many viewers as dockers v carlton etc.
Storm v Souths rated higher than broncos v roosters this round.

Fans attending and buying memberships, kids playing the game, sponsors coming on board media covering the game etc are equally relevant kpis for expansion the Fact their tv deals keep trumping ours is a plus as well I suppose.

"Nearly as much" as you state, reinforces my point.All that extra financial outlay with the expectation people in the Northern Sates will watch in truckloads ,hasn't eventuated. That is the point argued by AFL people in Melbourne, not just me.

Like selling new cars in a foreign market, spending huge sums over many years and sales not growing.The GWS mob had Skoda as a sponsor and they increased their sale by less than a few in 12 months.They don't sponsor GWS anymore as main sponsor.
They are watching Carlton not GWS, and the numbers of GWS's fans who attended the G/F ,was an indication of their lack of interest in Sydney.

Storm had no competition from others in Melbourne last weekend and ironically don't get the largesse that GWS does spent on them.And indeed the GC Bums.

Of course buying membership etc plays its part ,but if you spend more than you get in doing so, its' a false economy and on that basis couldn't run a school canteen profitably.
"Keeps trumping ours, yet ours has gradually got much closer,.and their games have far more ad opportunities. The initial big gap AFL got, was a big thank you ,to your mate Smith.

 

[Perth Red]

"Nearly as much" as you state, reinforces my point.All that extra financial outlay with the expectation people in the Northern Sates will watch in truckloads ,hasn't eventuated. That is the point argued by AFL people in Melbourne, not just me.

Like selling new cars in a foreign market, spending huge sums over many years and sales not growing.The GWS mob had Skoda as a sponsor and they increased their sale by less than a few in 12 months.They don't sponsor GWS anymore as main sponsor.
They are watching Carlton not GWS, and the numbers of GWS's fans who attended the G/F ,was an indication of their lack of interest in Sydney.

Storm had no competition from others in Melbourne last weekend and ironically don't get the largesse that GWS does spent on them.And indeed the GC Bums.

Of course buying membership etc plays its part ,but if you spend more than you get in doing so, its' a false economy and on that basis couldn't run a school canteen profitably.
"Keeps trumping ours, yet ours has gradually got much closer,.and their games have far more ad opportunities. The initial big gap AFL got, was a big thank you ,to your mate Smith.

I very much doubt that was an expectation at all. Like NRL if you bury the game on a secondary channel it is going to see audience growth in that city. What it did do was add significantly to the total for the year by having a ninth game to show.
Expansion is for the long game, not the short. Its about being nationally appealing to sponsors, Govt's and media. Its about accepting you'll never be number one in enemy territory but a healthy number 2 is going to have positive impacts for the game. Its about believing that having a presence will see more kids playing and watching the game. Its hard to argue that a well thought our and funded expansion strategy doesn't deliver those things when you look at AFL and NRL experiences.
You can argue that if it isnt adding $'s to the TV contract (though as I said extra content should be doing that regardless of who is playing) then the motivations have to be for different purposes. Realistically how many more viewers is a second Brisbane team going to add to tv? As show above more people last week watched the Melbourne game, when on FTA in Melbourne, in total than watched the Broncos game.
GWS and Suns do seem ambitious even for AFL but then they probably said the same about the Swans and Lions a few decades ago. And its not like we are starting at the base of GWS or Suns in Perth, Adelaide probably closer. Were not talking about spending $50mil plus a year on Perth and Adelaide clubs plus god knows how much on grassroots.
You have to start somewhere if you want to grow the game, consolidation will only take you so far in a saturated market. I have no doubt that a well run Perth NRL club would see grassroots increase dramatically and much greater media attention (WA media is incredibly parochial).
Would it boost TV audiences in Perth? Probably not significantly unless the FTA aprtner showed it on main channel. But would the NRL add another 600-700k FTA and 200k plus STV viewers every week to its total with a ninth game on a Sunday at 6pm? Absolutely it would. Thats adding an extra 22million ish to the total (113mill last year) NRL viewers for the season.

 

[Perth Red]

edit

 

[The Great Dane]

Without derailing this thread entirely I really couldn't disagree more with most if what you've said. I grew up in an area 700kms from the nearest NRL team, you're trying to dismiss what these areas bring to NRL clubs as a waste of time because they can't attend every game? Do you even have any proof how many of these fans go to games every year? Or how much merchandise they buy? Is a tshirt purchased in Broadbeach worth more than one purchased in Ballina? If anything smaller towns are more receptive to visits from NRL clubs because it's a big thing, I still remember Clinton Schifcofske coming to my primary school in Parra gear in about grade 1 or 2 FFS.

I doubt any studies on this subject are publicly available, but do I really need a study?
It's seems rather obvious to me that people that live hours away are significantly less likely to regularly invest significant amounts of money into a club.

The reality is that the return on investment isn't really worth the trouble to gain a foothold in tiny towns, when for the same investment they could build their consumer-base back home.

Also how many players/staff do you think clubs send to these things? They're perfectly capable of keeping the vast majority in the Gold Coast so the "wasted days" point misses the mark.

Doesn't matter how many they send, it's still resources and money that could be put to better use elsewhere.

Growing customers in one area doesn't have to be at the expense of all others.

Never said that it did, but when you are in a situation like the Titans, and most other NRL clubs, and business isn't great, you need to be smart about how you invest your money and resources for the best result, and spending time and money wooing a relatively small group of people in Ballina, that might buy the odd shirt or hat, when you could be wooing people on the GC that are significantly more likely to buy season tickets, new merch every year, attend events, etc, is a bad use of those resources.

Disagree about the Wagga situation as well, you're serving up opinion as fact. It could very well lead to a lot of local kids becoming Raiders fans for life. Having a strong fan base in a reasonable sized city/town less than 3 hours drive from Canberra looks pretty valuable to me.

Firstly, I'm from Canberra, we're experts on these 'second home' deals, probably had more of them than any other city in the country.
They always end badly for the local scene, and the support that the club built in the city almost completely disintegrates the minute that the club leaves the market.
The Swans, North Melbourne, Western Bulldogs, CCM, and now GWS and Illawarra Hawks, all used to say they owned Canberra. The reality is that none of them ever did.

Also the Raiders don't need more 'fans', they have fans coming out the arse, you can see that from the band wagon that's jumped back on now that we are having some success. What the club needs is more steady customers and more whales. There is significantly less chance of building big groups of those in Wagga Wagga.

Finally the Raiders going into Wagga, just like the AFL clubs in Canberra, will only do damage to Wagga's local clubs and take money that could have gone into local RL back to Canberra.
Every Raiders ticket sold could have been a Wagga Brothers or Kangaroos ticket sold, if you know what I mean.

So in the long term, aside from the money that changes hands, not much good will come of playing games in Wagga.

 

[Perth Red]

Totally agree, the revenue value supporters are within 1 hour of your stadium. That should be taking 80% of your marketing budget! Great if you can pick up non game members and sell some merch and get them watching on TV beyond that geography, but that would in reality be small financial return to the club.

 

[taipan]

I very much doubt that was an expectation at all. Like NRL if you bury the game on a secondary channel it is going to see audience growth in that city. What it did do was add significantly to the total for the year by having a ninth game to show.
Expansion is for the long game, not the short. Its about being nationally appealing to sponsors, Govt's and media. Its about accepting you'll never be number one in enemy territory but a healthy number 2 is going to have positive impacts for the game. Its about believing that having a presence will see more kids playing and watching the game. Its hard to argue that a well thought our and funded expansion strategy doesn't deliver those things when you look at AFL and NRL experiences.
You can argue that if it isnt adding $'s to the TV contract (though as I said extra content should be doing that regardless of who is playing) then the motivations have to be for different purposes. Realistically how many more viewers is a second Brisbane team going to add to tv? As show above more people last week watched the Melbourne game, when on FTA in Melbourne, in total than watched the Broncos game.
GWS and Suns do seem ambitious even for AFL but then they probably said the same about the Swans and Lions a few decades ago. And its not like we are starting at the base of GWS or Suns in Perth, Adelaide probably closer. Were not talking about spending $50mil plus a year on Perth and Adelaide clubs plus god knows how much on grassroots.
You have to start somewhere if you want to grow the game, consolidation will only take you so far in a saturated market. I have no doubt that a well run Perth NRL club would see grassroots increase dramatically and much greater media attention (WA media is incredibly parochial).
Would it boost TV audiences in Perth? Probably not significantly unless the FTA aprtner showed it on main channel. But would the NRL add another 600-700k FTA and 200k plus STV viewers every week to its total with a ninth game on a Sunday at 6pm? Absolutely it would. Thats adding an extra 22million ish to the total (113mill last year) NRL viewers for the season.

Dollar spent dollar earned according to those complaining in the AFL, just don't add up.

The Swans have been here 38 years and have been on main channel secondary channel ,had SL war assistance, prop ups by Kimberley ,Willessee, COLa monies, huge promo monies and their TV ratings have barely moved.Let alone the shocking figures for GWS.And I'm talking Northern states.
38 years is hardly a short game.

They are aiming to be no 1 in the Northern States, this BS about being just to provide an alternative is just that BS.You don't spend huge sums ,have two teams in a city unless you want to try and dominate.Read some of Master's earlier comments about that softly softly approach .Don't be arrogant, and get NSW people offside.

The very reason V'Landys wants to have two teams in Brisbane in rl heartland.To dominate.

Of course I can argue about the extra money spent, is not providing the results expected up North.Bearing in mind ad revenue has dropped and will be nowhere what it was, and AFL has more time for ads.
The 2nd Brisbane side is in a heartland city.It will have the support of people in that city ,not a non heartland city.Gyngell reckoned at one stage ,a 2nd Brisbane team was worth $20m pa to a TV deal.

The Swans and Lions years ago had the SL war ,that gave them a huge leg up, plus it sucked out all the money the ARL had in the Bank.Swans execs admitted the SL war and the rl fans being upset ,helped their cause.

I am not arguing against Perth ,getting in.GWS was parachuted in ,no one wanted them.The Suns are in an area ,that is still strong rl territory.They are still struggling.The Titans do not have the large sums thrown at them like the Suns have.

Well the AFL tried to start somewhere in NZ, and look how that lasted.

What you have to remember, as soon as Melbourne has a few bad years, they may well need more financial assistance from the NRL.The Swans nearly went broke on 3 occasions.
The money for all codes ,is not going to be there ,like it was in the past for TV.We got a small increase in Fox for 2023-2027, what happens after that is anyone's guess.FTA Tv is struggling big time.

Anyone who puts a figure on future Tv deals, is throwing darts at a board and hoping.

And forget about Adelaide for a long time.

If we didn't have this virus crap, the Chinese Govt let through without forewarning, expansion ideas would be proposed under a better economic environment.If as expected the AFL gets a financial haircut, then someone has to bear the pain.

 

[Perth Red]

Swans avg'd 53,000 viewers for their games last year on FTA secondary channel. Considering the general audience size on those secondary channels that isnt too dusty, especially when you also add the people at the game. re $ in $ out, that is one measurement but there are other ROI measurements at the top tier.
For me it would be:
Does it grow participation
Does it grow people watching the game
Is the expansion club sustainable
Is the expansion club competitive
Is the expansion club producing players
Does it increase sponsor benefits/appeal
Does it increase public awareness/media coverage for the code

Yeh maybe number 1 in 50 or 100 years time. That's the long game. No surprise they started using "The National Game" in their advertising. I doubt it will ever happen unless we have a total melt down in RL.
Yeh saw that article, if that was true you'd think Ch9 would have been pushing for it whilst he was in charge wouldnt you? lol
Id be surprised if bringing in Brisbane2 adds more than 20-50,000 for the FTA games they play in on the Brisbane viewing figures (thats roughly the difference between Brisbane audiences when Broncos are playing v when they are not in same time slots on FTA. 99% of RL fans in Brisbane are already watching NRL. Not dissimilar to what a Perth team could add in new viewers if we got the game on main channel.

Totally agree re money, that's why the NRL really needs to reign in club spending/players salaries and set total club expenditure at a viable level for all clubs. Leave them to their own devices and there will always be poorly managed clubs sitting on the brink of bankruptcy trying to keep up with the big boys. At the moment clubs are not generating enough consistent fan revenue, its one consistent that can avoid the major issues when a sponsor pulls out etc.

We shouldn't forget about Adelaide, or any other large population area.
Like we had a plan developed and slight increased funding in 2009 to reinvigorate and rescue the game in WA we need the same for Adelaide now. Might be a ten year plan but has to start or will never be realised.

 

[taipan]

Like I've stated, they have been here 38 years.they've had the SL war leg up,3 going broke assists and with all the publicity they receive in the media,I wouldn't be creaming myself over 50,000 plus Tv ratings, considering VFL football has been around Sydney even much longer than 38 years.
GWS as I indicated a parachuted in, commodity unwanted entity, and the TV ratings shows that to be the case.They get coverage in the paper, far in excess of their popularity, which makes me think it's paid via the TV deal.The Suns similar.

The key word is the club being sustainable, being able to be self supporting.From what I've seen neither the GWS or Suns fall into that category ,and the huge sums been and continue to be spent on them is a fair indication they are still struggling.Not much use with juniors if the premier club is a financial blackhole.

Look in 50 years time the NRL may have an Adelaide club ,who knows.But the NRL has been famous over the years for lacking the balls to lobby Govts, waste money and that includes the clubs.If they did that in non heartland areas, heaven help us.

Putting a team in Adelaide in the next few years, would be akin to what is happening with GWS,p*ssing money against the wall, just to put pins on maps.Perth is miles ahead of them, and should be the 18 team, whenever that happens.

The NRL has finally realised there has been waste in head office and the clubs, and they have to tighten their belts.Rest assured the AFL is starting to do that now, and they have had to use part of the $600m loan.I don't believe ,but I could be wrong the nRL has had to use any of their $250 loan guarantee.

V"landys love him or hate him, as an accountant ,would want any expansion club to be long term financially viable.You have a far better chance of achieving that ,in heartland areas(cities).
We all want the Storm to be around for the next 100 years, but the real tests will come ,when they have times like the Dragons are going through.