18th club, whose next?

[Perth Red]

I'll ask you for the fourth or fifth time then and maybe get an answer this time. If Redcliffe weren't the best of the bidders, then which bid was better?

Its hard to say as we werent privvy to the submissions. I thought the Firehawks had a pretty strong bid myself. Central, full time out of suncorp, plenty of money and jnrs behind them. Its obvious News Ltd wanted Redcliffe as least threatening to Broncos and ultimately backed it financially to get Broncos off FTA and onto Kayo more to drive their subscriptions.

Stark contrast to AFL who said 'we want to grow our footprint in the 2 expansion states so thats where we are putting clubs' right TV you can now pay us the sum of $50mill a year for the privilege of screening the extra game.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I don't understand what your question has to do with anything. It's a red herring that is totally irrelevant to the point at hand, just like every time you bring it up.

Besides, I've answered you're question multiple times and each time you have refused to accept the answer and continued to assert that I haven't answered the question. It's almost like you have a script in your head of how the discussion should go, but when I don't follow that script you don't know how to respond and try to force the conversation back onto the script.

I'll answer one last time- each of the Brisbane bids were deeply flawed, and if given the option I wouldn't have picked any of them and would have either built a club that better fit the NRL's needs inhouse or expanded in another market while I waited for better opportunities in Brisbane to present themselves.

What a cop out. So instead of picking from the existing bids, you'd wait for a mythical bid that may never come just because you have a thing against the dolphins?

 

[The Great Dane]

Exactly right. Unfortunately due to a number of reasons (lack of revenue diversification/historical) the ARLC are mere pawns of News Limited/Nine.

The main reason in RL's case is obvious; the Leagues Clubs/pokies disincentivizing entrepreneurialism.

 

[The Great Dane]

What a cop out. So instead of picking from the existing bids, you'd wait for a mythical bid that may never come just because you have a thing against the dolphins?

Saying I'd rather hold on making a decision than make a bad one is not a cop out.

There's no ticking clock, Brisbane doesn't have to have an expansion club this very second or it will spell doom and gloom, so the NRL could, and should IMO, have made moves in other markets where there were better opportunities on the table and waited to see what would develop in Brisbane. Give it some time, say a decade or so, and if something develops in Brisbane great, if not, or the NRL aren't willing to wait, that's fine as well, bite the bullet and build it in house.

I also don't have 'a thing against' the Dolphins, what I have 'a thing against' is bad business.

You've fetishize the BRL and traditional clubs, in precisely the same way that many Sydney fans fetishize the NSWRL and Winfield Cup, and that's fine. If you want to sit on the hill with a little crowd of other people with a warm beer and a cold pie and watch little suburban clubs go at it that's great, but that already exists in the lower tiers, and the sport should be pursuing grander visions at the national level.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Saying I'd rather hold on making a decision than make a bad one is not a cop out.

There's no ticking clock, Brisbane doesn't have to have an expansion club this very second or it will spell doom and gloom, so the NRL could, and should IMO, have made moves in other markets where there were better opportunities on the table and waited to see what would develop in Brisbane. Give it some time, say a decade or so, and if something develops in Brisbane great, if not, or the NRL aren't willing to wait, that's fine as well, bite the bullet and build it in house.

I also don't have 'a thing against' the Dolphins, what I have 'a thing against' is bad business.

You've fetishize the BRL and traditional clubs, in precisely the same way that many Sydney fans fetishize the NSWRL and Winfield Cup, and that's fine. If you want to sit on the hill with a little crowd of other people with a warm beer and a cold pie and watch little suburban clubs go at it that's great, but that already exists in the lower tiers, and the sport should be pursuing grander visions at the national level.

Doing nothing is exactly what the NRL has done prior to this decision pretty much most of the time since the SL war. So yes, continued stagnation is exactly what we've been criticising the Governing body of. You take it a step further by holding out for some magic bid that may never materialise.

It continues to amaze me that you think the Dolphins were not a good decision when none of us have seen the bids and they haven't even kicked off in the NRL yet. At least give them a chance to be a basket case if you think that's what will happen before you pile on.

With regards to me fetishizing traditional clubs... I've got news for you mate. The only three bids came from traditional QRL clubs. I assessed the bids based on the ones that actually put a bid in, not a fantasy one that may or may not pop up in the future. I'll tell you what though, if there were other bids out there that wanted to be in the NRL, they aren't very good ones because the race has just been run and they didn't even turn up at the starting line.

 

[MugaB]

Doing nothing is exactly what the NRL has done prior to this decision pretty much most of the time since the SL war. So yes, continued stagnation is exactly what we've been criticising the Governing body of. You take it a step further by holding out for some magic bid that may never materialise.

It continues to amaze me that you think the Dolphins were not a good decision when none of us have seen the bids and they haven't even kicked off in the NRL yet. At least give them a chance to be a basket case if you think that's what will happen before you pile on.

With regards to me fetishizing traditional clubs... I've got news for you mate. The only three bids came from traditional QRL clubs. I assessed the bids based on the ones that actually put a bid in, not a fantasy one that may or may not pop up in the future. I'll tell you what though, if there were other bids out there that wanted to be in the NRL, they aren't very good ones because the race has just been run and they didn't even turn up at the starting line.

To be fair tho, ARLC and Apollo team were looking at only SEQ, other bids like Orcas, Pride, Pirates, and even the transient Bears couldn't bid, so really it WAS brisbane or bust.... as far as choice of the 3/4 bids that went to the ARLC, dolphins not being a direct city rival, probably tipped the scales way in front, plus being immensely cashed up, where easts were cashed up but were too close, and ipswich was far but not as much... plus the last minute merger-joint bids wreaks of desperation, something the dolphins were never worried about and all other 3 did at some point

 

[Perth Red]

Doing nothing is exactly what the NRL has done prior to this decision pretty much most of the time since the SL war. So yes, continued stagnation is exactly what we've been criticising the Governing body of. You take it a step further by holding out for some magic bid that may never materialise.

It continues to amaze me that you think the Dolphins were not a good decision when none of us have seen the bids and they haven't even kicked off in the NRL yet. At least give them a chance to be a basket case if you think that's what will happen before you pile on.

With regards to me fetishizing traditional clubs... I've got news for you mate. The only three bids came from traditional QRL clubs. I assessed the bids based on the ones that actually put a bid in, not a fantasy one that may or may not pop up in the future. I'll tell you what though, if there were other bids out there that wanted to be in the NRL, they aren't very good ones because the race has just been run and they didn't even turn up at the starting line.

I think its fair to say the NRL seemingly put a criteria around bidding that meant in reality you were only going to get those bids, and in reality only two of them had any chance. Probably because it was a fait de complete after the meeting with News Ltd in America earlier in the year. If they had put out an open bid process then Broncos could have ended up with a very different challenger to their throne. I don't think its any coincidence that News Ltd media outlets were talking up Dolphins from day one and pretty much made the announcement before NRL did.

Getting Brisbane2 in the comp for this tv deal was absolutely the right call (though Id have preferred 2 teams for the extra slot value), if its the right team and if the NRL's continued refusal to actually support a new club in anyway remains to be seen.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I think its fair to say the NRL seemingly put a criteria around bidding that meant in reality you were only going to get those bids, and in reality only two of them had any chance. Probably because it was a fait de complete after the meeting with News Ltd in America earlier in the year. If they had put out an open bid process then Broncos could have ended up with a very different challenger to their throne.

The Bombers were not linked to a QRL club until they merged with the Jets, so it would seem that anyone was welcome to bid. I'm not sure of the parts of the criteria you are referring to though.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

To be fair tho, ARLC and Apollo team were looking at only SEQ, other bids like Orcas, Pride, Pirates, and even the transient Bears couldn't bid, so really it WAS brisbane or bust.... as far as choice of the 3/4 bids that went to the ARLC, dolphins not being a direct city rival, probably tipped the scales way in front, plus being immensely cashed up, where easts were cashed up but were too close, and ipswich was far but not as much... plus the last minute merger-joint bids wreaks of desperation, something the dolphins were never worried about and all other 3 did at some point

True mate, I was referring to any other Brisbane bids that were to come out of the woodwork that weren't linked to a QRL club. The only one was the Bombers until they merged with the Jets.

 

[Perth Red]

The Bombers were not linked to a QRL club until they merged with the Jets, so it would seem that anyone was welcome to bid. I'm not sure of the parts of the criteria you are referring to though.

The sole reason they merged with the Jets bid was due to the NRL's criteria ie that you had to be an established club already. It was clear that the main criteria was to be an established QRL club. If it was fully open it would have been interesting to see what consortiums may have come forward. If Aleague can get big bidders bidding for their crappy little club spots then I can only imagine the interest from sports investors and sports management companies in trying to get an NRL license.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

The sole reason they merged with the Jets bid was due to the NRL's criteria ie that you had to be an established club already. It was clear that the main criteria was to be an established QRL club. If it was fully open it would have been interesting to see what consortiums may have come forward. If Aleague can get big bidders bidding for their crappy little club spots then I can only imagine the interest from sports investors and sports management companies in trying to get an NRL license.

Was this criteria published? The only comments I've ever seen from Livermore and Johnson on the topic is that it was to make it a stronger bid, not because they had to due to the NRL's criteria.

I really don't see anyone stumping up the asset base, cash, juniors or RL nouse that either Redcliffe or the Firehawks did. Let's say the Bombers did bid alone, I really don't see how they are a better option that the leading two bidders were.

 

[Perth Red]

Was this criteria published? The only comments I've ever seen from Livermore and Johnson on the topic is that it was to make it a stronger bid, not because they had to due to the NRL's criteria.

I really don't see anyone stumping up the asset base, cash, juniors or RL nouse that either Redcliffe or the Firehawks did. Let's say the Bombers did bid alone, I really don't see how they are a better option that the leading two bidders were.

no it wasnt but Abdo and Vlandys have said in the past that they expected a new club to come from the second tier. Its why WA decided to aim for a second tier club by 2022, which has now been put back. No way Bombers join anyone if there isnt criteria they couldnt meet, which in their case was established Jnr pathways.

End of day a new club only needs to provide funding for sustainability and enough start up cash to hit the ground running. Asset base is a furphy, its mostly tied up in buildings or pokie licenses which they would have to sell or borrow against if the NRL club got into trouble. No one has yet shown how much surplus cash the Redcliffe Dolphins generate each year that they are willing to sink into an NRL club.

re Jnrs for a new independent club there's a stack of established QRL clubs that can provide the Jnr pathways. The two last expansion clubs have done ok without their own Jnr pathways and by partnering with existing ones, better than many who have long established pathways in fact. By promoting an existing region club that is largely reliant on a LC the NRL is making the same mistakes it did in sydney imo, but that's old ground and decision is made. We can only hope Dolphins can embrace the bigger role they now have to be the whole of Brisbanes alternative club so we dont have to use valuable top tier spots on a 3rd, 4th or 5th club.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

no it wasnt but Abdo and Vlandys have said in the past that they expected a new club to come from the second tier. Its why WA decided to aim for a second tier club by 2022, which has now been put back. No way Bombers join anyone if there isnt criteria they couldnt meet, which in their case was established Jnr pathways.

End of day a new club only needs to provide funding for sustainability and enough start up cash to hit the ground running. Asset base is a furphy, its mostly tied up in buildings or pokie licenses which they would have to sell or borrow against if the NRL club got into trouble. No one has yet shown how much surplus cash the Redcliffe Dolphins generate each year that they are willing to sink into an NRL club.

re Jnrs for a new independent club there's a stack of established QRL clubs that can provide the Jnr pathways. The two last expansion clubs have done ok without their own Jnr pathways and by partnering with existing ones, better than many who have long established pathways in fact. By promoting an existing region club that is largely reliant on a LC the NRL is making the same mistakes it did in sydney imo, but that's old ground and decision is made. We can only hope Dolphins can embrace the bigger role they now have to be the whole of Brisbanes alternative club so we dont have to use valuable top tier spots on a 3rd, 4th or 5th club.

Ok, so it is fair to say that anyone could have put in a bid. I don't think the NRL would have turned down the bid if a global sports brand wanted to buy into an NRL licence.

I think Redcliffe's (and the Firehawks' to be fair) asset base is significant for the very reason you pointed out. The NRL doesn't have to bail them out if something goes pear shaped like it did for the Titans early on. They just borrow against their assets and can work themselves out of the tight spot. I would say we need more of those type of situations in the NRL.

 

[Perth Red]

Ok, so it is fair to say that anyone could have put in a bid. I don't think the NRL would have turned down the bid if a global sports brand wanted to buy into an NRL licence.

I think Redcliffe's (and the Firehawks' to be fair) asset base is significant for the very reason you pointed out. The NRL doesn't have to bail them out if something goes pear shaped like it did for the Titans early on. They just borrow against their assets and can work themselves out of the tight spot. I would say we need more of those type of situations in the NRL.

err not if the criteria said you had to be an established Brisbane club lol. Which seems to have been the case. After 10 years getting ready for it Bombers dont join up with anyone unless they had to in order to meet key criteria.

Yep get that, NRL doesnt want to bail clubs out and is conservative in investing in new clubs. but then if you've got cash sitting there to cover hard times you dont need an $80mill valued pokie den. Take Sage's interest in owning a Perth team, his asset base is over $600million, makes the Brisbane LC's look small fry. No that Id want Sage owning our club! Maybe there was a Qlnd Sage waiting to buy into an NRL ownership? Maybe an open tender would have brought more interest? Maybe we wouldnt have ended up with another LC reliant NRL club? Like Is aid decision is made, all we can do is now hope they are incredibly successful.

 

[Dragonwest]

no it wasnt but Abdo and Vlandys have said in the past that they expected a new club to come from the second tier. Its why WA decided to aim for a second tier club by 2022, which has now been put back. No way Bombers join anyone if there isnt criteria they couldnt meet, which in their case was established Jnr pathways.

End of day a new club only needs to provide funding for sustainability and enough start up cash to hit the ground running. Asset base is a furphy, its mostly tied up in buildings or pokie licenses which they would have to sell or borrow against if the NRL club got into trouble. No one has yet shown how much surplus cash the Redcliffe Dolphins generate each year that they are willing to sink into an NRL club.

re Jnrs for a new independent club there's a stack of established QRL clubs that can provide the Jnr pathways. The two last expansion clubs have done ok without their own Jnr pathways and by partnering with existing ones, better than many who have long established pathways in fact. By promoting an existing region club that is largely reliant on a LC the NRL is making the same mistakes it did in sydney imo, but that's old ground and decision is made. We can only hope Dolphins can embrace the bigger role they now have to be the whole of Brisbanes alternative club so we dont have to use valuable top tier spots on a 3rd, 4th or 5th club.

Interesting you mention WA are aiming for a second tier? Would that be at the expense of the SG Ball? For it to be successful with any WA players feeding it you'd think we'd need Ball and Flegg to keep the best talent in League within WA to funnel into it. That would need substantial funding .....

 

[titoelcolombiano]

err not if the criteria said you had to be an established Brisbane club lol. Which seems to have been the case. After 10 years getting ready for it Bombers dont join up with anyone unless they had to in order to meet key criteria.

Yep get that, NRL doesnt want to bail clubs out and is conservative in investing in new clubs. but then if you've got cash sitting there to cover hard times you dont need an $80mill valued pokie den. Take Sage's interest in owning a Perth team, his asset base is over $600million, makes the Brisbane LC's look small fry. No that Id want Sage owning our club! Maybe there was a Qlnd Sage waiting to buy into an NRL ownership? Maybe an open tender would have brought more interest? Maybe we wouldnt have ended up with another LC reliant NRL club? Like Is aid decision is made, all we can do is now hope they are incredibly successful.

I think it all comes back to whether or not the requirement to be an existing club was a criteria or a throw away line from V'landys and / or Abdo which we can't know.

Again, I've only seen comments from the heads of the Bombers and Jets bids saying that the merge was beneficial to make it a stronger bid, not because any criteria required it. I could have missed it though.

 

[Idris 84]

I tend to be glass half empty, so here are a few my concerns about all the expansion teams.
Dolphins - will struggle because second teams in a previous one city towns always do, especially with an even bigger lead in time. They will get some general interest in the first and maybe even second year but that will drop off significantly. Also they do not have an area name as a point of identity. Also their colours don't differentiate enough from the Broncos. Plus aligning to an already existing club limits potential supporter base.
NZ2 - I have been to Christchurch and places like that in New Zealand. They are barely even cities more like a tiny country town. Also rugby is so big there and if you get the media running one of their code war campaigns similar to the Sydney media when GWS came in the afl, a lot of the lower intellect people buy into that and don't even give the new team a chance because it's so scary for their beloved all blacks.
Perth - I have stated previously but I don't think they will be able to attract quality players wanting to fly that distance so many times per year and be so far away from the Eastern Seaboard. I think attracting players and player retention would be a major issue.

Obviously all three have their positive points too, but there aren't any that i don't see some major hurdles to overcome.

 

[mongoose]

I tend to be glass half empty, so here are a few my concerns about all the expansion teams.
Dolphins - will struggle because second teams in a previous one city towns always do, especially with an even bigger lead in time. They will get some general interest in the first and maybe even second year but that will drop off significantly. Also they do not have an area name as a point of identity. Also their colours don't differentiate enough from the Broncos. Plus aligning to an already existing club limits potential supporter base.
NZ2 - I have been to Christchurch and places like that in New Zealand. They are barely even cities more like a tiny country town. Also rugby is so big there and if you get the media running one of their code war campaigns similar to the Sydney media when GWS came in the afl, a lot of the lower intellect people buy into that and don't even give the new team a chance because it's so scary for their beloved all blacks.
Perth - I have stated previously but I don't think they will be able to attract quality players wanting to fly that distance so many times per year and be so far away from the Eastern Seaboard. I think attracting players and player retention would be a major issue.

Obviously all three have their positive points too, but there aren't any that i don't see some major hurdles to overcome.

All pretty valid reasons, I don't agree with the "long flights" excuse but Perth could have trouble attracting players from the east coast. The Lions/Suns have had trouble in the past keeping AFL players who are from VIC/SA/WA and Brisbane isn't even isolated like Perth.

NZ2 would be great for the pathways it would create but I wonder if the demand is there from a fan perspective. They would be forever a small market team unless they had Melbourne storm like success.

I have concerns about Redcliffe, the name, who they represent, where they will play games. It all still seems a bit up in the air. Just hope there is a critical mass of people who want to jump on board with an existing QRL brand and don't mind they are from Redcliffe. If the club is aiming solely for "Moreton Bay" people they will struggle.

 

[Perth Red]

Interesting you mention WA are aiming for a second tier? Would that be at the expense of the SG Ball? For it to be successful with any WA players feeding it you'd think we'd need Ball and Flegg to keep the best talent in League within WA to funnel into it. That would need substantial funding .....

No the plan was to keep SG Ball and bring in a NSW or Qlnd cup team. Its a bit of a chicken and egg though for NRLWA and its backers, no point doing that if no expansion plans for Perth, but may not be fave for expansion if we dont already have a second grade set up. Of course if the NRL actually had a strategy so we knew the long term plans then we'd know if its worth us going there or not.

 

[Perth Red]

I tend to be glass half empty, so here are a few my concerns about all the expansion teams.
Dolphins - will struggle because second teams in a previous one city towns always do, especially with an even bigger lead in time. They will get some general interest in the first and maybe even second year but that will drop off significantly. Also they do not have an area name as a point of identity. Also their colours don't differentiate enough from the Broncos. Plus aligning to an already existing club limits potential supporter base.
NZ2 - I have been to Christchurch and places like that in New Zealand. They are barely even cities more like a tiny country town. Also rugby is so big there and if you get the media running one of their code war campaigns similar to the Sydney media when GWS came in the afl, a lot of the lower intellect people buy into that and don't even give the new team a chance because it's so scary for their beloved all blacks.
Perth - I have stated previously but I don't think they will be able to attract quality players wanting to fly that distance so many times per year and be so far away from the Eastern Seaboard. I think attracting players and player retention would be a major issue.

Obviously all three have their positive points too, but there aren't any that i don't see some major hurdles to overcome.

Dolphins, I kind of agree. I've concerns about their ability to appeal to the whole of Brisbane, which they will need to do. Hopefully they have early on field sustained success that boosts their profile and appeal.

NZ2 thats a big problem that you cant really change. Dramatic population growth isnt predicted. Can an NRL club survive in a very small city as a second sport behind the main one? We dont really have any experience of that to say yay or nay but its a massive sustainability risk.

Perth I agree and looking at how difficult Dolphins are finding it to recruit it is a big concern. This is probably the easiest to overcome though with some creative thinking and concessions. But there in lies the problem, NRL is notorious for not having any flexibility in assisting new club start ups and seems it would rather see them fail than give them a leg up.