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18th club, whose next?

Messages
14,822
In 1952, the Brisbane Exhibition Ground hosted a VFL match between Essendon and Geelong drew 28,000 spectators and was the first official VFL match to be played under floodlights.

Another VFL exhibition game was played at the Brisbane Cricket Ground in 1959, attracting a large crowd.

The code boomed at junior level during the 1950s and by 1960, with a tripling of the number of schools playing the code and more than 5,000 juniors playing across the state.


There were more juniors playing fumbleball in Queensland during the 1950s and 1960s than there are juniors playing rugby league in Western Australia today.

Using the Bears' struggles during the 80s and early 90s doesn't do Perth's NRL bid any favours. The WAFL was in dire straights in the 198s and the West Coast Eagles went bankrupt.

1983, May 2. – The WAFL requests immediate AID from the WA Goverment to meet a 1.9 million deficit that had come about due to the maintenance of league venues. The Government sets up a task force headed by Bill Mitchell to investigate footballs financial problems and long term needs. The Report would recommend ground rationalisation – down to four, including Subiaco and the WACA, as well as an independent commission.

1983, August 8. The WA Government appoints a 3 man task force to investigate the long term financial needs of WA league football.

1984, January 16. The WA Government task force recommends the formation of an independent board of directors be appointed to take overall control of the game and that the Government take financial responsibility for Subaico

1984, February 28. The WAFL board hands control of football in WA over to a newly formed WAFL board. In return the Government took over repayments on a 4 million loan used to finance the development of Subiaco Oval.

1987, Feb 6. A Limited Partnership (Indian Pacific Limited) is formed to raise the money to cover the costs of setting up and operating the Eagles. The float eventually raised $12.3 million. (Soaring, pg 17)

1987 – February 18. Eagles have no facilities for training, and the change rooms were basically a van.

1987 – IPL requires bailing out. A rescue package of $5 million was hastily organised, with five people putting in $1 million each: Neil Hamilton, Colless, McHenry, Mark Hohnen and Robert
Armstrong.

1989, June 20. The WAFC is formed. The Government commits $850,000 over three years to set up and operate the organisation. The WAFL was 9.48 million debt, including a 6 million bank loan, an overdraft of 1.2 million and the eight clubs owed another 2.28 million.

1989 – Amid public calls in 1989 for the Eagles to be scrapped, the West Australian Football Commission assumed 75 per cent control of Indian Pacific. Brian Cook was appointed chief executive and Mick Malthouse was named coach.

 
Last edited:

Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,750
I went to school in Brisbane during the 1990s. Fumbleball wasn't popular at the primary school I attended, but it wasn't hated, either. The high school I attended had fumbleball in its curriculum.

The QAFL was a strong competiton.

The Brisbane Bears weren't a joke in 1996. They were pulling strong crowds at a run down Gabba with a winning team and were getting strong coverage from the Brisbane media. An average of 18k fans flocked to the Gabba in 1996 to watch the Bears. To put that into perspective, Melbourne drew an average of 17k at MRS in 2023. This is a fair comparison because the Bears and Storm finished in the top four in 1996 and 2023.


Wikipedia backs me up on fumbleball's long history in Queensland:

Australian rules football in Queensland (typically referred to as "AFL", or less frequently "Australian Football", "Aussie Rules" or "Australian Rules") was the first official football code played in 1866.[3] The Colony of Queensland was the second after Victoria to adopt Australian rules football, just days after the rules were widely published. For two decades it was the most popular football code, however a strong desire for representative football success saw Queenslanders favour British football variants for more than a century. As a result, Queensland is one of the two states to the east of the Australian cultural divide described as the Barassi Line. 120 years later in 1986 Queensland was the first state awarded a licence to have a club, the Brisbane Bears, in the national (AFL) competition, also its first privately owned club. However the Gold Coast based Bears had a detrimental effect until the 1993 redevelopment of the Brisbane Cricket Ground (Gabba). In contrast the Bears transformation into a Brisbane and traditional membership based club resulted in enormous growth, and a tripling of average AFL attendances by 1996.[4][5][6]​

Christopher Skase hurt fumbleball in the late 1980s and early 1990s because he was a crook and based the team at Carrara.

Gold Coast Australian Football League campaigned to join the VFL in 1982.

QAFL applied to join the VFL in 1986.

A Gold Coast QAFL team called South Port Sharks applied to join AwFuL in 1996.

1982 – February 10. Gold Coast Australian Football league launches a campaign to have a VFL team based on the Gold Coast within five years.​
1986 – May 22. QAFL President announces plans to introduce a team into Queensland. While wanting to field a Queensland side in its own right, they felt that having a relocated side was more likely.​
1986 – July 1. VFL Commissioner reported in talks with consortium over possible team in Queensland​
1986 – July 29. Kevin Bartlett writes that the national league wont get off the ground. (Football Limited pg 154)​
1986, July 31. The VFL reaffirms its commitment to a national competition in 1987, with a preference for a team from Brisbane. The league was uncertain as to whether teams from SA or WA would be involved.​
1986 – Fitzroy board approves an in principle move to Brisbane 5-3. It was later declared a “straw vote”.​
1986 – August 19. Paul Cronin and the QAFL join forces for their bid, leaving Alistair Norwood (Jeans West) and John Brown out on their own. Cronin was providing most of the funding.​
1986 – October 1. VFL Board of Directors approves teams from Western Australia and Queensland to join the VFL in 1987.​
1986 – October 1. Richmond propose to play 11 games a year in Brisbane. (The Phoenix Rises pg. 78) Richmond, with the strong backing of president-elect Alan Bond, announced it was planning to play 11 away games in Brisbane from the 1987 season onwards, with 11 home games at the MCG.​
1986 – October 4. Perth clothing millionare Allister Norwood withdraws from the bidding for a Queensland side.​
1986 – October 7. A syndicate headed by Actor Paul Cronin and the QAFL wins the right to field a new team in Brisbane. The VFL directors vote is unanimous.​
1986 – October 30. VFL Commission notes with concern that Skase intended to base the Bears in Carrara. The league specified that this cold only be a temporary arrangement.​
1986, December 3. The new Queensland club is launched as the Brisbane Bears.​
1989 – August 9. North Melbourne president Bob Ansett says he is considering an offer from a Queensland entrepreneur to buy the privately owned football club and relocate to Brisbane​
1989 – November. Brisbane is effectively Broke. Mr Cronin had indicated that the companies involved in the Brisbane Bears structure could survive providing a capital injection of $3 million prior to Christmas and a further $3 million by February 1990 was provided. Mr Cronin further advised that none of the club’s existing creditors were likely to make a move against the club prior to Christmas, however they needed the League’s co-operation to bring forward its December distribution entitlement of $100,000 in order that staff salaries could be met.​
1990 – February 16. Pelerman finalises his takever and formally takes control of Brisbane.​
1992 – Reuben Pelerman voluntarily returns Brisbane to the AFL and subsequently to a member owned structure.​
1996 - Southport (QAFL) make a bid for an AFL license, but are denied​
1996 – May 13. A Brisbane merger offer is formally rejected by the Fitzroy board.​
1996 – June 24. The Brisbane Bears are contacted by Fitzroy and advised to submit their best merger offer to Fitzroy for consideration.​
1996 – July 3. The Fitzroy board re-opens merger discussions with the Brisbane Bears. The Bears are told that the merger door with Fitzroy is “open half an inch”​
1996 – July 4. AFL Presidents’ Meeting rejects the Fitzroy-North Melbourne merger. After a meeting between the administrator of Fitzroy and the AFL commission, the AFL commission recommends a Bears-Fitzroy merger. North Melbourne withdraws from the merger race. A reconvened AFL presidents’ meeting endorses the AFL commission’s recommendation of a Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy merger.​
1996 – November 1. Brisbane Lions officially launch.​
1998 – A Commission is launched into the improving football in Queensland resulting in the formation of AFL Queensland.​

Mate the Brisbane Bears were a failure in attendance terms by fumbleball standards. Heck their average crowds are about the same as the Giants who you keep telling everybody is a failure. They are about the same as Perth who by the way are also a failure by your standards.

Their crowd figures are also less than Melbourne



Fumbleball isn’t any different to league. Crowds increase over time and it takes time, effort and investment despite your protestations that Queensland is different to any other market.
 

mongoose

Coach
Messages
11,808
I went to school in Brisbane during the 1990s. Fumbleball wasn't popular at the primary school I attended, but it wasn't hated, either. The high school I attended had fumbleball in its curriculum.

The QAFL was a strong competiton.

The Brisbane Bears weren't a joke in 1996. They were pulling strong crowds at a run down Gabba with a winning team and were getting strong coverage from the Brisbane media. An average of 18k fans flocked to the Gabba in 1996 to watch the Bears. To put that into perspective, Melbourne drew an average of 17k at MRS in 2023. This is a fair comparison because the Bears and Storm finished in the top four in 1996 and 2023.


Wikipedia backs me up on fumbleball's long history in Queensland:

Australian rules football in Queensland (typically referred to as "AFL", or less frequently "Australian Football", "Aussie Rules" or "Australian Rules") was the first official football code played in 1866.[3] The Colony of Queensland was the second after Victoria to adopt Australian rules football, just days after the rules were widely published. For two decades it was the most popular football code, however a strong desire for representative football success saw Queenslanders favour British football variants for more than a century. As a result, Queensland is one of the two states to the east of the Australian cultural divide described as the Barassi Line. 120 years later in 1986 Queensland was the first state awarded a licence to have a club, the Brisbane Bears, in the national (AFL) competition, also its first privately owned club. However the Gold Coast based Bears had a detrimental effect until the 1993 redevelopment of the Brisbane Cricket Ground (Gabba). In contrast the Bears transformation into a Brisbane and traditional membership based club resulted in enormous growth, and a tripling of average AFL attendances by 1996.[4][5][6]​

Christopher Skase hurt fumbleball in the late 1980s and early 1990s because he was a crook and based the team at Carrara.

Gold Coast Australian Football League campaigned to join the VFL in 1982.

QAFL applied to join the VFL in 1986.

A Gold Coast QAFL team called South Port Sharks applied to join AwFuL in 1996.

1982 – February 10. Gold Coast Australian Football league launches a campaign to have a VFL team based on the Gold Coast within five years.​
1986 – May 22. QAFL President announces plans to introduce a team into Queensland. While wanting to field a Queensland side in its own right, they felt that having a relocated side was more likely.​
1986 – July 1. VFL Commissioner reported in talks with consortium over possible team in Queensland​
1986 – July 29. Kevin Bartlett writes that the national league wont get off the ground. (Football Limited pg 154)​
1986, July 31. The VFL reaffirms its commitment to a national competition in 1987, with a preference for a team from Brisbane. The league was uncertain as to whether teams from SA or WA would be involved.​
1986 – Fitzroy board approves an in principle move to Brisbane 5-3. It was later declared a “straw vote”.​
1986 – August 19. Paul Cronin and the QAFL join forces for their bid, leaving Alistair Norwood (Jeans West) and John Brown out on their own. Cronin was providing most of the funding.​
1986 – October 1. VFL Board of Directors approves teams from Western Australia and Queensland to join the VFL in 1987.​
1986 – October 1. Richmond propose to play 11 games a year in Brisbane. (The Phoenix Rises pg. 78) Richmond, with the strong backing of president-elect Alan Bond, announced it was planning to play 11 away games in Brisbane from the 1987 season onwards, with 11 home games at the MCG.​
1986 – October 4. Perth clothing millionare Allister Norwood withdraws from the bidding for a Queensland side.​
1986 – October 7. A syndicate headed by Actor Paul Cronin and the QAFL wins the right to field a new team in Brisbane. The VFL directors vote is unanimous.​
1986 – October 30. VFL Commission notes with concern that Skase intended to base the Bears in Carrara. The league specified that this cold only be a temporary arrangement.​
1986, December 3. The new Queensland club is launched as the Brisbane Bears.​
1989 – August 9. North Melbourne president Bob Ansett says he is considering an offer from a Queensland entrepreneur to buy the privately owned football club and relocate to Brisbane​
1989 – November. Brisbane is effectively Broke. Mr Cronin had indicated that the companies involved in the Brisbane Bears structure could survive providing a capital injection of $3 million prior to Christmas and a further $3 million by February 1990 was provided. Mr Cronin further advised that none of the club’s existing creditors were likely to make a move against the club prior to Christmas, however they needed the League’s co-operation to bring forward its December distribution entitlement of $100,000 in order that staff salaries could be met.​
1990 – February 16. Pelerman finalises his takever and formally takes control of Brisbane.​
1992 – Reuben Pelerman voluntarily returns Brisbane to the AFL and subsequently to a member owned structure.​
1996 - Southport (QAFL) make a bid for an AFL license, but are denied​
1996 – May 13. A Brisbane merger offer is formally rejected by the Fitzroy board.​
1996 – June 24. The Brisbane Bears are contacted by Fitzroy and advised to submit their best merger offer to Fitzroy for consideration.​
1996 – July 3. The Fitzroy board re-opens merger discussions with the Brisbane Bears. The Bears are told that the merger door with Fitzroy is “open half an inch”​
1996 – July 4. AFL Presidents’ Meeting rejects the Fitzroy-North Melbourne merger. After a meeting between the administrator of Fitzroy and the AFL commission, the AFL commission recommends a Bears-Fitzroy merger. North Melbourne withdraws from the merger race. A reconvened AFL presidents’ meeting endorses the AFL commission’s recommendation of a Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy merger.​
1996 – November 1. Brisbane Lions officially launch.​
1998 – A Commission is launched into the improving football in Queensland resulting in the formation of AFL Queensland.​
as far as coverage and profile it was going from pretty low base in the 80s and early 90s. The sport has grown over time in Brisbane with investment and planning. RL can do the same in WA and VIC if its patient and strategic enough.
 

mongoose

Coach
Messages
11,808
In 1952, the Brisbane Exhibition Ground hosted a VFL match between Essendon and Geelong drew 28,000 spectators and was the first official VFL match to be played under floodlights.​
Another VFL exhibition game was played at the Brisbane Cricket Ground in 1959, attracting a large crowd.​
The code boomed at junior level during the 1950s and by 1960, with a tripling of the number of schools playing the code and more than 5,000 juniors playing across the state.​
I'm pretty reluctant to believe a Wikipedia page about AFL juniors....
 

Canard

Immortal
Messages
35,608
It's also bizarre to correlate the attendances of one off games, or results from 100 years ago to that of a sports popularity in a region.

Melbourne would have some of the largest attendances ever recorded for State of Origin, for example.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,537
Are you dumb enough to think the money AwFuL "invested" in Brisbane is the reason 48k people from the Brisbane market watch the Lions on 7mate?

Fumbleball was played in Brisbane before rugby league existed. The QAFL was a strong competition. You really don't know anything about rugby league and fumbleball in Brisbane.

It's insane to think the ARLC will invest $300-400m on Perth or Melbourne. It's even crazier to think an investment of that amount will convert fumbleball fans from Perth and Melbourne into rugby league fans. This is the problem with your stance on expansion. Your conclusions are based on faulty premisses that make no sense. You're not the only one who's guilty of it. The nutcase from Canberra has been dribbling the same shit for years.



The ARLC doesn't have the money to spend up big on "promotion" in Adelaide, Melbourne and Perth.

Do you think that posting the same tiresome shit on here for 15 years will lead to money appearing out of thin air?
lol, afl is good, nrl is bad. Such a plastic fan.
 
Messages
14,822
Mate the Brisbane Bears were a failure in attendance terms by fumbleball standards. Heck their average crowds are about the same as the Giants who you keep telling everybody is a failure. They are about the same as Perth who by the way are also a failure by your standards.

Their crowd figures are also less than Melbourne



Fumbleball isn’t any different to league. Crowds increase over time and it takes time, effort and investment despite your protestations that Queensland is different to any other market.
The Bears didn't start playing their games in Brisbane until 1993. Up until then their games were played at Carrara on the Gold Coast. Their move to Brisbane for the 1993 season saw their attendances increase signdiciantly, despite struggling on the field. Their four seasons at the Gabba between 1993-1996 drew more fans than the Storm drew at Melbourne's Olympic Park between 2002-2005.

The Bears' 18k average at the Gabba in 1996 was 5k more than the Western Reds drew in their best season.

The Melbourne Storm have never averaged 18k at MRS in a season, despite being camped inside the top four over the bulk of their existence. When the club dropped out of finals contention in the early 2000s their attendances dropped below 10k for four seasons straight.

Storm Attendances 2002-2005
2002 - 9,088
2003 - 9,626
2004 - 8,896
2005 - 8,898

In 2006 the club made the grand final, yet their attendances were just 10,853. In 2007 they won the GF, yet drew 11,711 to their games. In 2008 they made the GF and drew 12,474. In 2009 they won the GF and drew 11,978.


The Bears drew 11,149, 12,434, 10,305 and 18,088 to their four seasons at the Gabba. They finished 8th in 1995 and were a top four team in 1996, losing in the preliminary final. Despite not having as much onfield success as the Storm, they drew higher attendances.
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
33,616
The Bears didn't start playing their games in Brisbane until 1993. Up until then their games were played at Carrara on the Gold Coast. Their move to Brisbane for the 1993 season saw their attendances increase signdiciantly, despite struggling on the field. Their four seasons at the Gabba between 1993-1996 drew more fans than the Storm drew at Melbourne's Olympic Park between 2002-2005.

The Bears' 18k average at the Gabba in 1996 was 5k more than the Western Reds drew in their best season.

The Melbourne Storm have never averaged 18k at MRS in a season, despite being camped inside the top four over the bulk of their existence. When the club dropped out of finals contention in the early 2000s their attendances dropped below 10k for four seasons straight.

Storm Attendances 2002-2005
2002 - 9,088
2003 - 9,626
2004 - 8,896
2005 - 8,898

In 2006 the club made the grand final, yet their attendances were just 10,853. In 2007 they won the GF, yet drew 11,711 to their games. In 2008 they made the GF and drew 12,474. In 2009 they won the GF and drew 11,978.


The Bears drew 11,149, 12,434, 10,305 and 18,088 to their four seasons at the Gabba. They finished 8th in 1995 and were a top four team in 1996, losing in the preliminary final. Despite not having as much onfield success as the Storm, they drew higher attendances.
Anzac game artificially boosts storms crowds with
Huge kiwi attendance

unlike the roosters dragons which is shared so the crowd impact isn’t skewed like Melbourne is
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,537
Isn’t that you with the tv deals and expansion. Tho
I’m using facts for discussion, he’s using supposition.

badically his argument is because brisbane gets more people watching afl than Perth gets for nrl there’s no point building the game in wa. It’s complete nonsense. ARL has a market in brisbane as it’s spent a century and a shed load of investment building it. Perth has low tv ratings for nrl because it hasn’t. Simple as that.
 
Messages
14,822
as far as coverage and profile it was going from pretty low base in the 80s and early 90s. The sport has grown over time in Brisbane with investment and planning. RL can do the same in WA and VIC if its patient and strategic enough.
Melbourne has fielded a professional team in the NRL for 25 years. There's just 5k juniors in Victoria.

Queensland had 5k fumbleball juniors in the 1950s and 1960s. There was no professional team in Brisbane.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,537
Anzac game artificially boosts storms crowds with
Huge kiwi attendance

unlike the roosters dragons which is shared so the crowd impact isn’t skewed like Melbourne is
That’s pretty dumb, like saying broncos and dolphins crowd avg is inflated by away fans attending The derbies. or Sydney crowds would be so much lower if you only counted the home fans attending.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,537
Melbourne has fielded a professional team in the NRL for 25 years. There's just 5k juniors in Victoria.

Queensland had 5k fumbleball juniors in the 1950s and 1960s. There was no professional team in Brisbane.
There’s only 5,400 juniors in Cronulla region,and that’s supposed to be second biggest rl nursery in Sydney!
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
33,616
Melbourne has fielded a professional team in the NRL for 25 years. There's just 5k juniors in Victoria.

Queensland had 5k fumbleball juniors in the 1950s and 1960s. There was no professional team in Brisbane.
Pretty good arguments tbh

I thought afl died off in 1910 but it looks like it stayed at a decent level which is news to me

definately vfl was close to taking over in brisbane around 1905 to 1909
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,537
Roosters and dragons share the crowd benefit

storm don’t
What do you mean share? whoever homegame it is it goes on their attendance aggregate for the year. Maybe we should take dolphins v other Queensland teams off their attendance avg if your only wanting to count home club fans lol
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
33,616
What do you mean share? whoever homegame it is it goes on their attendance aggregate for the year. Maybe we should take dolphins v other Queensland teams off their attendance avg if your only wanting to count home club fans lol
Because the storm should be sharing it

now the warriors are hosting their own Anzac game rhe warrioes are going to get a huge crowd boost

luckily south’s will help fill the storms stadium in their place
 

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