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2009 Four Nations Opener

East Coast Tiger

East Coast Tiger

Coach
Messages
14,139
It's amazing how many countries France have played over the years - Australia, NZ, PNG, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, England/GB, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Russia, Georgia, Sth Africa, Lebanon, Morocco, Serbia and even Canada! - virtually every country that plays the game.
 
ParraEelsNRL

ParraEelsNRL

Referee
Messages
27,715
East Coast Tiger said:
I didn't notice USA when was that?
Click to expand...

09/01/1954 PARIS FRANCE USA 31-00

There is some footage of this game but I can't get hold of it.

Also some pics somewhere around here or at RugbyForumXiii where the yanks were in old American football gear.

Edit, it was around the time when they (USA) toured out here.
 
ParraEelsNRL

ParraEelsNRL

Referee
Messages
27,715
Old Yugoslavia poster from 1956.

file.php
 
marv

marv

Juniors
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1,053
bender said:
I may look like a fool here, but i would be absolutely flabbagasted if France hadnt won at least 2 games out of thirty in their last 30 games against Australia, New Zealand and England/Great Britain. And during this time, they havent had full time teams. Does anyone have a handy list of the last 30 games.
Click to expand...

Flabbergasted you are.

bender said:
The question of Wembley/London crowds is very interesting. Does anyone have a comparison of the crowds in the last say 10 of these Australia vs Great Britain/England games in this area as opposed to the crowds in the same games in the last 10 Northern venues. Again, i would be extremely surprised if the London base doesnt get much bigger crowds, making this hardly a gamble. Can anyone post these figures?
Click to expand...

Its a good point, cant find any figures as such but you are probably right in what you say

bender said:
And finally, just on the trinations format, i think that Celtic, France, PnG, wales and pacific Islands are good possibilities. But, if it were up to me, I think that it would be very important to use GB and Ireland, Pacific Islands and PNG, and finally France (and/or the mediterranean) in long term plans. If this in done, players will never be encouraged to play for minor nations and the Nations cup will have the same effect as state of origin on the minor nations.
Click to expand...

persoanlly as an Englishman I wouldrather were England rather than GB but I am also worried about the lack of fixtures for possible dual nationality players, maybe a promotion relegation from the Tri- nations but P+R based not just on on-feild results, almost like franchiseing
 
deluded pom?

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
bender said:
The question of Wembley/London crowds is very interesting. Does anyone have a comparison of the crowds in the last say 10 of these Australia vs Great Britain/England games in this area as opposed to the crowds in the same games in the last 10 Northern venues. Again, i would be extremely surprised if the London base doesnt get much bigger crowds, making this hardly a gamble.
Click to expand...


The last time we (G.B./England) played a Test in London was pre ESL. Then there was only the CC final that added to the average fan's expenses. As I mentioned earlier there's a whole raft of other RL events to choose and spend one's money on nowadays.
 
T

The Observer

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kiwileaguefan

kiwileaguefan

Juniors
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2,426
yakstorm

yakstorm

First Grade
Messages
6,098
Crowds in London for Test Matches:

2005: Great Britain v New Zealand - Loftus Road
Crowd: 15,568

2004: Australia v New Zealand - Loftus Road
Crowd: 16,750

2000: Australia v England - Twickenham Stadium (World Cup Opener)
Crowd: 33,758

1997: Australia (SL) v Great Britain (SL) - Wembley Stadium
Crowd: 41,135

1995: Australia v England - Wembley Stadium (World Cup Final)
Crowd: 66,540

1995: Australia v England - Wembley Stadium (World Cup Opener)
Crowd: 41,271

1994: Australia v Great Britain - Wembley Stadium
Crowd: 57,034

1992: Australia v Great Britain - Wembley Stadium (World Cup Final)
Crowd: 73,631

Total: 345,687
Average: 43,211


Crowds in Northern England (Against Australia only)
2005: Great Britain v Australia - Hull
Crowd: 25,120

2005: Great Britain v Australia - Wigan
Crowd: 25,004

2004: Great Britain v Australia - Leeds
Crowd: 39,200

2004: Great Britain v Australia - Wigan
Crowd: 25,011

2004: Great Britain v Australia - Manchester
Crowd: 38,572

2003: Great Britain v Australia - Huddersfield
Crowd: 24,163

2003: Great Britain v Australia - Hull
Crowd: 25,147

2003: Great Britain v Australia - Wigan
Crowd: 24,614

Total: 226,831
Average: 28,354

So looking at it from a purely numbers sense, the South certainly holds its own against the North. Sure there are some factors that skew it in the South's favours, such as the quality of some of the events, and the larger capacity, but its fair to say people from the North enjoy a trip down to the capital, and there is a supporter base in the Southern half of England that can hold its own.

The fact that half of the viewers who watch Super League are based in the Southern half of the UK means there is a huge number of people who watch the game but don't attend matches. An event such as Australia v England at Wembley Stadium is something that could get them out.

As for the argument about France not being able to compete in the four nations, here is the French's teams recent results against the big four:

2004: France 20 - 24 New Zealand
2004: France 30 - 52 Australia
2005: France 12 - 44 Australia
2007: France 14 - 42 Great Britain
2007: France 16 - 21 New Zealand
2008: France 8 - 56 England

Some touch ups, some close results, fair to say they are a side victim of only playing one off clashes. Would they win a game if they joined a Quad-Nations tournament? Possibly not in their first few years, but they would offer a lot more than say Italy in the Rugby Union 6 Nations.

I think with Toulouse joining National League One in 2009, and the Les Catalans only to get better, the missing link in the redevelopment of France is having them included in a high quality international tournament like the Quad Nations.
 
bartman

bartman

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41,022
On those figures, the South only holds it's own against the north when games are held at Wembley - and the place is overrun with Northern supporters that have forked out good money to make a weekend out of it.

I was at Loftus Road for the 2005 game, and it was mostly ex-pat Kiwis in my opinion. The 2004 figure and match-ups suggests the same level of native support in London.

The days of pre-2000 large crwods there for internationals are a long time ago, and unless something dramatic happens (like England winning this World Cup), then in my mind the organisers would be best going for the 2004-style 35-40K crowd by holding the opening game in the North. You don't want to hurt the hip[ pocket of your biggest supporters more than you have to through the course of a season.

They might consider holding the final at Wembley, if they want to try for a decent crowd in the South? And bank on the tournament having been a success and England having reached the Final... But don't underestimate how much of those southern crowds (for Challenge Cup) are actually from the North anyway. Crusaders might bring a few on the train from Wales, and London is easy to get to from Paris these days, but from Perpignan the difference between making a trip to London and Manchester or Leeds is neglible.
 
C

Calixte

First Grade
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5,428
yakstorm said:
Crowds in London for Test Matches:

2005: Great Britain v New Zealand - Loftus Road
Crowd: 15,568

2004: Australia v New Zealand - Loftus Road
Crowd: 16,750

2000: Australia v England - Twickenham Stadium (World Cup Opener)
Crowd: 33,758

1997: Australia (SL) v Great Britain (SL) - Wembley Stadium
Crowd: 41,135

1995: Australia v England - Wembley Stadium (World Cup Final)
Crowd: 66,540

1995: Australia v England - Wembley Stadium (World Cup Opener)
Crowd: 41,271

1994: Australia v Great Britain - Wembley Stadium
Crowd: 57,034

1992: Australia v Great Britain - Wembley Stadium (World Cup Final)
Crowd: 73,631

Total: 345,687
Average: 43,211


Crowds in Northern England (Against Australia only)
2005: Great Britain v Australia - Hull
Crowd: 25,120

2005: Great Britain v Australia - Wigan
Crowd: 25,004

2004: Great Britain v Australia - Leeds
Crowd: 39,200

2004: Great Britain v Australia - Wigan
Crowd: 25,011

2004: Great Britain v Australia - Manchester
Crowd: 38,572

2003: Great Britain v Australia - Huddersfield
Crowd: 24,163

2003: Great Britain v Australia - Hull
Crowd: 25,147

2003: Great Britain v Australia - Wigan
Crowd: 24,614

Total: 226,831
Average: 28,354

So looking at it from a purely numbers sense, the South certainly holds its own against the North. Sure there are some factors that skew it in the South's favours, such as the quality of some of the events, and the larger capacity, but its fair to say people from the North enjoy a trip down to the capital, and there is a supporter base in the Southern half of England that can hold its own.

The fact that half of the viewers who watch Super League are based in the Southern half of the UK means there is a huge number of people who watch the game but don't attend matches. An event such as Australia v England at Wembley Stadium is something that could get them out.

As for the argument about France not being able to compete in the four nations, here is the French's teams recent results against the big four:

2004: France 20 - 24 New Zealand
2004: France 30 - 52 Australia
2005: France 12 - 44 Australia
2007: France 14 - 42 Great Britain
2007: France 16 - 21 New Zealand
2008: France 8 - 56 England

Some touch ups, some close results, fair to say they are a side victim of only playing one off clashes. Would they win a game if they joined a Quad-Nations tournament? Possibly not in their first few years, but they would offer a lot more than say Italy in the Rugby Union 6 Nations.

I think with Toulouse joining National League One in 2009, and the Les Catalans only to get better, the missing link in the redevelopment of France is having them included in a high quality international tournament like the Quad Nations.
Click to expand...

Nice contribution yakstorm...

Some good points.
 
deluded pom?

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
Familiarity also breeds contempt. The Kangaroos came to Britain in 2003/4/5. The anticipation of seeing players you'd only seen on tv and even then only once every four years pre ESL had gone.
 
yakstorm

yakstorm

First Grade
Messages
6,098
bartman said:
On those figures, the South only holds it's own against the north when games are held at Wembley - and the place is overrun with Northern supporters that have forked out good money to make a weekend out of it.

I was at Loftus Road for the 2005 game, and it was mostly ex-pat Kiwis in my opinion. The 2004 figure and match-ups suggests the same level of native support in London.

The days of pre-2000 large crwods there for internationals are a long time ago, and unless something dramatic happens (like England winning this World Cup), then in my mind the organisers would be best going for the 2004-style 35-40K crowd by holding the opening game in the North. You don't want to hurt the hip[ pocket of your biggest supporters more than you have to through the course of a season.

They might consider holding the final at Wembley, if they want to try for a decent crowd in the South? And bank on the tournament having been a success and England having reached the Final... But don't underestimate how much of those southern crowds (for Challenge Cup) are actually from the North anyway. Crusaders might bring a few on the train from Wales, and London is easy to get to from Paris these days, but from Perpignan the difference between making a trip to London and Manchester or Leeds is neglible.
Click to expand...

There is no doubt that a lot of fans come from the North to any event held at Wembley, I don't think anyone will argue with that, but there is also a very large 'passive' supporter base in the South that needs to be activated.

The fact that over 100,000 people in the South watch Super League on a regular basis means there is a base there which we need to convince to take the next step and turn up to a match. Events like the Challenge Cup are club based, meaning if you don't follow the two clubs there, or more follow the sport than have a favourite side, you're unlikely to turn up (still it was something like 15,000 tickets were sold in the southern half of England for the 2007 events...not sure about this years).

I agree with what you're saying that we don't want to penalise those who live in the north by expecting them to help prop up any Test in London, especially at a venue with the capacity like Wembley, but would somewhere like White Heart Lane (36K capacity) be a worthwhile option?
 
bartman

bartman

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Messages
41,022
Passive is the key word there. And the reported Sky ratings/subscriptions in London would probably include a significant ex-pat/transient factor too, not all to be assumed native English support down there.

Given the 2005 crowd for GB in London, I'm yet to be convinced that running a huge financial risk by having a Quad-Nations opener at a place like Wembley (or even White Heart Lane) will see that passive following turned into bums on seats and cash in hand? More likely would be a massive tournament financial loss - something the game still can't afford. Just my personal opinion, everyone's got one that's equally valid.

If England win the World Cup the the code will get a publicity boost in the mainstream, and that passive southern following might get off their butts during 2009 (much like the increase in cricket popularoty and awareness following the Ashes victory in 2005). And then maybe consider a 30-40K capacity London venue for the Quad Nations final... and pray like anything GB make it and the Northeners come down.

But for long term growth in London, in my opinion slowly building the Harlequins and Skolar operations up to more significantly supported levels would be the key, rather than trying a stab in the dark major event too soon, that risks a flop of 2000 WC proportions and damage to the code? We must remember that league is still virtually invisible to the populous in the massive cultural and news sphere of London, and it's only through things hitting the mainstream (occasional BBC Challenge Cup telecasts, Harlequins local radio efforts, and international success etc) that will really help things along there significantly (again, just my opinion).

Our passion sees us want to get carried away with hopes for growth of the game, but I think London's own following for an international match (regardless of the teams) will remain at 15K tops (including masses of Aus/NZ expats). I think we're stuck with that level rather than 30K for at least another 5 or more years, even with a prevailing wind!

The Northerners are more likely to come down in their numbers for a weekend "event" for the Final (a good six weeks after forking out for their Grand Final weekend) rather than for the Opening game only some 6-7 days later. So to me that's the key reason in opting for a 15K ground/crowd in London, rather than aiming much too high with a bigger/more expensive venue and running the risks.

I'm pretty confident the RFL guys (Lewis etc) know what they're doing and won't get ahead of themselves though. It'll be good just to have France in the competition from then on, and slowly the growth in the non-heartlands areas will come. Good times....
 
CAS

CAS

Juniors
Messages
298
As a 'Northerner', i was talking about this at the weekend with lads i went down to wembley with for the weekend a couple of weeks ago, ALL said as long as the tickets are reasonable they would all be prepared to go down even if its just for the day.

You WILL get a lot of Southern based Fans along, plus have you any idea how many ex pat Aussie live in london? Think Big, promote it, offers deals for Clubs, i coach at Junior level and i can Guarantee, buy tickets as deals and get things like extra fee tickets or well nedeed equipment for Clubs and they will snap tickets off you. The RFU do it, any Sport worth its salt does it.

The people who run our game are at long last catching on, that a good International aspect of the game can be a Cash Cow. Bring it on and i will be there.:lol::lol:
 
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