2010 Crowds

[WireMan]

Then explain to them that playoffs are not a new thing to the Engllish game by any stretch of the imagination. We've had them for a fair chunk of our history especially when it was just a single league and not all teams played each other twice.

The "Grand Final" has not been part of Rugby history for many years. Their has always been a comp at the end of the season, but only since Skys hype machine came along is it as big.

Say what you like, the fan numbers show that this isn't the NRL. We ain't big on the playoffs.

The crowd increase was helped by a Hull Derby and a Stains vs Wire match.


It won't snow before the grand final. The season length is fine.

 

[docbrown]

Those stats aren't correct, they've included the finals series in the 2009 total and still only divided by 27. I think crowd averages are actually up this year from 2009. For a better picture on that website, look at the end of year tables and click 'home results' to give home attendances, or just look at the individual club crowds and you will see how in general they have greatly improved.

Right, cheers thanks for that. I prefer linked tables though so you can see the calculation method.

Looking at those numbers and their trending as you say since 2000 then, looks like:

Bradford - down
Castleford - steady
Catalans - over 5 years, rose, then dropped this year
Crusaders - over 2 years, up
Harlequins - steady
Huddersfield - up
Hull FC - up
Hull Kingston - steady
Leeds - up
Salford - steady
St Helens - up
Wakefield - up
Warrington - up
Widnes - steady
Wigan - up

It definitely appears Super League is increasing the crowds as was the intent, at least over the last decade. Only one club needs to be worred - Bradford. What's the story there?

I don't think the length of Super League is the problem, and having Salford play Swinton certainly wouldn't help anything. Salford would win by 80 points and about 500 people would turn up. Most teams already play trial games against the other local teams without the need to disrupt the league calendar.

So has the gulf between Super League and Championship 1 increase by that much? Are those traditional rivalries now dead?

 

[VictoryFC]

Well I'm struggling to come up with many others to be honest.

Ticket prices coupled with live coverage? Total stab in the dark, but low finals crowds are almost always usually down to increase in ticket prices, coverage on TV and bad weather.

 

[DINGb@T]

Yeah, it's a bit hard to get a proper scale to the crowds over there, especially going off the slstats website. They're probably quite good but in comparison they look terrible. Need a like for like comparision with the last 5 years of finals to really see what's going on.

Pretty sure the overall average has been slowly trending upwards except they got the new team in a couple of years ago and that shot the average.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Catalans were down because half their stadium was a construction site.

You can see all the championship and championship 1 crowds at the same site you got the SL figures from.

 

[kovana]

I find the drop in crowds during the playoffs to be absolutely mystifying. Over here the crowds get better - and in many cases remarkably better - during the playoffs.
.

I dont know what you are talking about.

Compared to last years playoffs.. The crowds have grown for this years ESL.

 

[S.S.T.I.D]

I dont know what you are talking about.

Compared to last years playoffs.. The crowds have grown for this years ESL.

I'm talking about the fact that a few weeks ago when Wigan played Bradford, just as an example, they drew over 17K. Then, a week later in a game against the other massive club in England being Leeds, they drew 12K. It gets fobbed off as not being an elimination game but then they draw even fewer in an elimination game, 11K.

To use another example, in March, Wigan-Leeds at the DW drew 17,883. That is a 32% decrease when compared to the same fixture in the finals.

This isn't the best comparison as the Tigers didn't play the Dragons at home this season, but when they did play, at Kogarah in round 16, the crowd was 16,500 - not even a sell out. On Saturday the crowd will be over 70K, and it isn't the GF.

As I said, I just find it very odd the crowds drop so significantly for the finals in the ESL. I should make it clear that I am not meaning to bash the ESL in a non-constructive manner. I am a massive fan and if I'm honest would watch more of it than the NRL if I had even access to both. I just don't understand the mentality of the supporters in regards to the finals.

 

[JonG]

I think the drop in attendances in the Play-Offs, and the lack of interest is due to the perceived lack of competition.

Everyone expects one of Leeds/Saints/Wigan/Wire to win the CC and GF so when pteams like Hull KR and Hudds come to town, why bother with paying the £20 to see your team dominate.

However this attitude will decrease each year - you just have to look at the Wire/Giants game to see how that backfired on the Wire fans - only 9,000 turned up and some were even saying they were going to save their money for the next fixture against Saints.

As soon as there are no "easy" fixtures in the top 8, the sooner the importance of the knock-out games will become, and the crowds will increase

I think you are now seeing a definite Big 5 - Wigan/Wire/Saints/Leeds/Hudds, and given the recruitment of Hull KR and the improvement of Hull, this could quite easily turn into a top 7.

I expect a big crowd at KR on Friday - Last game there and lots of Hudds supporters, who genuinely think they can beat St's. Leeds/Wigan will be a sell out as well, given the last game they played

 

[fanatique]

I'm talking about the fact that a few weeks ago when Wigan played Bradford, just as an example, they drew over 17K. Then, a week later in a game against the other massive club in England being Leeds, they drew 12K. It gets fobbed off as not being an elimination game but then they draw even fewer in an elimination game, 11K.

To use another example, in March, Wigan-Leeds at the DW drew 17,883. That is a 32% decrease when compared to the same fixture in the finals.

This isn't the best comparison as the Tigers didn't play the Dragons at home this season, but when they did play, at Kogarah in round 16, the crowd was 16,500 - not even a sell out. On Saturday the crowd will be over 70K, and it isn't the GF.

As I said, I just find it very odd the crowds drop so significantly for the finals in the ESL. I should make it clear that I am not meaning to bash the ESL in a non-constructive manner. I am a massive fan and if I'm honest would watch more of it than the NRL if I had even access to both. I just don't understand the mentality of the supporters in regards to the finals.

The whole finals idea is still a novelty in England. Traditiaonally the ladder toppers won the league and the Challenge Cup was a huge KO draw. It takes ages for culture to change.

 

[VictoryFC]

The whole finals idea is still a novelty in England. Traditiaonally the ladder toppers won the league and the Challenge Cup was a huge KO draw. It takes ages for culture to change.

Disagree. The country is used to knockout competition more so than Australia. Again, if you read UK league forums, ticket prices seem to be the sticking point. Cant exactly use your ST to go to a finals game.

 

[WireMan]

Disagree. The country is used to knockout competition more so than Australia. Again, if you read UK league forums, ticket prices seem to be the sticking point. Cant exactly use your ST to go to a finals game.

I disagree with you. Sorry mate.

The playoffs are still a novelty and are seen as a tv invention. It will take time to grow. A long time. People are still coming to terms with a team in London which has been around for 20 years!

It needs a better format, having the top 4 play each other in the first round is wrong.

The Aus model is better, top seed vs bottom seed, top at home. Simple and every game is important. As the league gets tighter the games get bigger.

Pricing is an excuse not a reason. People travel round the country to watch games. It was £17 to watch either of the Warrington games. People who want to go to the games (and can afford season tickets) can spend that. For comparison, an indian takeaway for two cost £17.

 

[fanatique]

I do find the 13K plus at Knowsley Road in the prelim Final hard to believe. Saints are hugely successful and won qualifying for a 5th successive final. They averaged over 11,000 at home in the Home and away season and were playing a last ever game at their ancient home.

I'd have thought the town would have been rugby mad with a PF being the last game at Knowsley and a huge derby GF a couple of wins away. I really cannot understand why it wasn't packed to the rafters. I'm not being critical. I just genuinely do not understand it. If I was a Saints fan i wouldn't miss it for anything.

 

[VictoryFC]

I disagree with you. Sorry mate.

The playoffs are still a novelty and are seen as a tv invention. It will take time to grow. A long time. People are still coming to terms with a team in London which has been around for 20 years!

It needs a better format, having the top 4 play each other in the first round is wrong.

The Aus model is better, top seed vs bottom seed, top at home. Simple and every game is important. As the league gets tighter the games get bigger.

Pricing is an excuse not a reason. People travel round the country to watch games. It was £17 to watch either of the Warrington games. People who want to go to the games (and can afford season tickets) can spend that. For comparison, an indian takeaway for two cost £17.

Fair enough yeah.

Well, in any case, looks like some soccer clubs are experiencing drop in gates as well. On top of lower gates for the Union, looks like its a widespread problem.

 

[docbrown]

Perhaps they could drop two games and promote it like the Challenge Cup knock outs instead.

Home Finals
1v8
2v7
3v6
4v5

losers eliminated, home finals next week for top two winners (AB)

A v D
B v C

losers eliminated

Super League Grand Final:
E v F

 

[shaver]

I'm talking about the fact that a few weeks ago when Wigan played Bradford, just as an example, they drew over 17K. Then, a week later in a game against the other massive club in England being Leeds, they drew 12K. It gets fobbed off as not being an elimination game but then they draw even fewer in an elimination game, 11K.

To use another example, in March, Wigan-Leeds at the DW drew 17,883. That is a 32% decrease when compared to the same fixture in the finals.

This isn't the best comparison as the Tigers didn't play the Dragons at home this season, but when they did play, at Kogarah in round 16, the crowd was 16,500 - not even a sell out. On Saturday the crowd will be over 70K, and it isn't the GF.

As I said, I just find it very odd the crowds drop so significantly for the finals in the ESL. I should make it clear that I am not meaning to bash the ESL in a non-constructive manner. I am a massive fan and if I'm honest would watch more of it than the NRL if I had even access to both. I just don't understand the mentality of the supporters in regards to the finals.

I think there's two main reasons for the attendance drop off.

1 - the domination by the big clubs. Only a fool would bet against one of saints or leeds being there again this yr. and if you go all the way back to 1998, the same four teams (saints, Leeds, wigan, Bradford) have contested all the grand finals with the exception of Hull gettin there in 2006.

2 - the majority of older generation of fans i.e. anyone 40 and above in this country are STILL gettin used to the playoff system but also might never do. they are still of the belief that the team that finishes top should be champions etc. As these generations of people pass on slowly over the next 30-40 years, the generations of fans who have been brought up on the playoffs will come to the fore, the importance and attendance at matches will grow. Its gonna be a slow process though.

 

[fanatique]

I think there's two main reasons for the attendance drop off.

1 - the domination by the big clubs. Only a fool would bet against one of saints or leeds being there again this yr. and if you go all the way back to 1998, the same four teams (saints, Leeds, wigan, Bradford) have contested all the grand finals with the exception of Hull gettin there in 2006.

2 - the majority of older generation of fans i.e. anyone 40 and above in this country are STILL gettin used to the playoff system but also might never do. they are still of the belief that the team that finishes top should be champions etc. As these generations of people pass on slowly over the next 30-40 years, the generations of fans who have been brought up on the playoffs will come to the fore, the importance and attendance at matches will grow. Its gonna be a slow process though.

Shaver has to be right here. Look at Saints. This will be their 8th GF since the 1998 introduction and they have playerd what is it 6? 7? Challenge Cup finals in that time as well. Big set piece finals come along every year if you support the Saints. Similar with Leeds and Wigan. Bradford down now but they were sated for years. play offs simply don't catch the attention of fans who are in big finals all the time. I'm sure there are now plenty of Saints who turn up for finals only knowing that they will likely be in either or perhaps both of the Big finals.
.

 

[shaver]

The current play-off format doesnt help also. the big teams play each other in week 1 only to then find themselves playing each other again in week 3. for variety's sake we should adopt the nrl format.

 

[WireMan]

I think there's two main reasons for the attendance drop off.

1 - the domination by the big clubs. Only a fool would bet against one of saints or leeds being there again this yr. and if you go all the way back to 1998, the same four teams (saints, Leeds, wigan, Bradford) have contested all the grand finals with the exception of Hull gettin there in 2006.

2 - the majority of older generation of fans i.e. anyone 40 and above in this country are STILL gettin used to the playoff system but also might never do. they are still of the belief that the team that finishes top should be champions etc. As these generations of people pass on slowly over the next 30-40 years, the generations of fans who have been brought up on the playoffs will come to the fore, the importance and attendance at matches will grow. Its gonna be a slow process though.

There is another problem the RFL may have to consider if point 2 happens.

In the NRL the crowds are quite low for league matches and the crowds then get good for the playoffs. This is because the Aus public are used to the system of the league being almost seen as a qualifying comp for the finals which are the biggest part of the sport.

In the UK we are used to a league and cup format. Hence we get good crowds for league matches where winning it is important, and the cup final always has a big crowd.

Now if fans in the UK changed to be more like fans in Aus the league will lose its appeal. That would be really bad for the English games. Going of crowds this year at my club Warrington, we would have 13 games with an average crowd of 8,000 and a playoff crowd of 13,000. This would reduce the money in the game.

In Aus with big tv deals and the main sport that is fine. In the UK thats the end of the league.

As stated many times, the game in Aus is not the game in the UK and vice versa.

 

[JonG]

I do find the 13K plus at Knowsley Road in the prelim Final hard to believe. Saints are hugely successful and won qualifying for a 5th successive final. They averaged over 11,000 at home in the Home and away season and were playing a last ever game at their ancient home.

I'd have thought the town would have been rugby mad with a PF being the last game at Knowsley and a huge derby GF a couple of wins away. I really cannot understand why it wasn't packed to the rafters. I'm not being critical. I just genuinely do not understand it. If I was a Saints fan i wouldn't miss it for anything.

I found that figure hard to believe - I was there and it looked packed. All 3 sides were full, and the Hudds away end looked about 3/4 full.

I would have put the figure at nearer 16k. There was a lot of pay on the day attendees - £20 in, cash only, no receipts etc.... Makes me wonder if the attendances are artificially reduced to avoid declaring it to the tax man?

 

[Teddyboy]

Was reading how the Guinness Premiership crowds were down as well as the Magners League which apart from Leinster,Munster and the 2 Italian teams who are starting out, the rest are really really Wakefield low.