2016/17 Summer of Cricket

[oldmancraigy]

On a sidenote the last aussie spinner to get 12 in a test in India waa Jason Krezja.

Anyone remember him?

Yeah but 12-358 (at almost 5 an over) in an almost 200 run loss isn't quite as impressive is it?

Side note: he's only 34 years old - could still be running around!
Worst control ever for an offie, that's what I remember about him.

 

[oldmancraigy]

I think SOK will be more economical than Lyon, but I reckon Lyon will take more wickets from here on. But that's 2nd order....Starc is the guy....if he stays fit. I would think that innings will go quite a bit longer and reverse swing is the killer.

Lyon is a 1.8 wickets per innings guy. I don't see how he gets more wickets? He's been stealing SOKs test spot for years.

Hopefully by the end of the tour we've established who the better spinner is!

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Lyon is a 1.8 wickets per innings guy. I don't see how he gets more wickets? He's been stealing SOKs test spot for years.

Hopefully by the end of the tour we've established who the better spinner is!

They're very different styles of spinner. Neutrals just laugh at the crap Lyon cops from Australian fans. He's a 1.8 innings per game guy who plays the majority of his tests on wickets that are typically unhelpful to finger spinners (i.e. Australian test grounds). What we will (or may) learn from this series is who is the more effective spinner on the sub-continent. Whether that generalises to Australian (or English) conditions is another issue. Anyway, they both bowled very well in this test, and let's hope they both bowl very well in the next two!

PS: Lyon takes a wicket every 63 balls in Tests. That's pretty good for a finger spinner. Graeme Swann was a little better (60 per wicket), as was Herath (61), Dan Vettori considerably poorer (69 balls per wicket).

 

[hineyrulz]

Yeah but 12-358 (at almost 5 an over) in an almost 200 run loss isn't quite as impressive is it?

Side note: he's only 34 years old - could still be running around!
Worst control ever for an offie, that's what I remember about him.

I also remember the terrible fields he had to bowl to in Perth when SA chased 400 down. Ponting really had NFI when it came to spinners.

 

[hineyrulz]

That pitch actually was not worse than this one.

Clarke got his 6-9 late in that test, possibly even day 5.

This test didnt even last 3 days.

Ummm no, India were bowled out for 105 in 40 overs on day one, we got to 205 and a 100 run lead but could only get 80 odd in chasing 100 and lose by about 13 runs on day 3. That pitch was worse than this one and the scores prove it. India only made it look worse because how spineless they were with the bat.

 

[Twizzle]

This isn't a regular old Indian 'turner', nor is it similar to what India have produced over the last couple of seasons* . It is cratered and has had variable bounce and spin from day one. What we'll cop in the later tests (I would think) are pitches that are quite good to bat on for at least a day or two.....no great spin, but similarly no great bounce or pace.

yes it is Baz, they have been producing this type of pitch for about 18 months now. Its akin to pitch doctoring but there are no rules regarding pitch preparation so they are not really breaking any rules here.

So, when you get a pitch like this, a guy who is accurate, and bowls at the stumps like O'Keefe does pretty well....he doesn't have to vary the delivery in terms of spin.....the pitch will do that. He's been a very good 4th innings bowler for NSW for this reason.

SOK has been our best first class bowler in the country for about 10 years now, averages just over 20, Lyon averages about 40, no contest. Even on our flat and green decks he has been very effective and has no problems in picking up wickets. He has the variation in pace and spin that Lyon has only just stared using in the last 12 months.

There is a reason why SOK is ignored and its got nothing to do with his ability. (lets just call it off field behaviour)

Lyon is the reason we are so desperate for an all rounder to bat at 6. We need some one to back up our quicks and Lyon has been very ineffective at doing that. He has never taken 6 wickets in his life and SOK did it twice in 2 days. Lyon hasn't taken a 5 bag in over 4 years. Last season we prepared 2 rank turners, one in Adelaide and one in Sydney, I think the Goat took a total of 1 wicket in those 2 test matches in the second innings and in those conditions he should be bringing it home for us, that's why you pick a spinner.

He seems like a nice bloke but hopelessly overrated for mine.

* I think there might have been one other really odd pitch in the last few years.

EDIT: Have a think about who it was that took 6 for 9 for Australia about 12 years ago a pitch in a similar condition.

yeh, that was Clarkey

 

[Twizzle]

I also remember the terrible fields he had to bowl to in Perth when SA chased 400 down. Ponting really had NFI when it came to spinners.

or captaincy in general, the word attacking was foreign to him

 

[strider]

but .... Nice Gary

 

[Twizzle]

he's another one who should be replaced, averaged less than 10 since he replaced Neville and Neville has been making tons for fun, yet Wade was reinstated because he is allegedly a "wicket keeper batsman"

he's a myth

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

yes it is Baz, they have been producing this type of pitch for about 18 months now. Its akin to pitch doctoring but there are no rules regarding pitch preparation so they are not really breaking any rules here.

Really?
So here are the most recent 1st innings scores in India in Tests (starting from most recent Test)

687/6
477
400
283
455
537
557
316
318

Not exactly turners and biters from day 1. The ones that were harder to play on were those in Nov 2015.

SOK has been our best first class bowler in the country for about 10 years now, averages just over 20, Lyon averages about 40, no contest. Even on our flat and green decks he has been very effective and has no problems in picking up wickets. He has the variation in pace and spin that Lyon has only just stared using in the last 12 months.

There is a reason why SOK is ignored and its got nothing to do with his ability. (lets just call it off field behaviour)

Lyon is the reason we are so desperate for an all rounder to bat at 6. We need some one to back up our quicks and Lyon has been very ineffective at doing that. He has never taken 6 wickets in his life and SOK did it twice in 2 days. Lyon hasn't taken a 5 bag in over 4 years. Last season we prepared 2 rank turners, one in Adelaide and one in Sydney, I think the Goat took a total of 1 wicket in those 2 test matches in the second innings and in those conditions he should be bringing it home for us, that's why you pick a spinner.

He seems like a nice bloke but hopelessly overrated for mine.

yeh, that was Clarkey

He obviously didn't have a good series against SA or Pakistan for that matter. Nevertheless, since the start of 2015 he has taken 99 Test wickets (26 matches). Outside Australia, he has taken 55 wickets in 13 Tests in that time period. I dunno how that is 'not supporting the quicks'. The reason we got caned by SA was not because Lyon didn't bowl well. We batted like a bunch of old women.

I like SOK as well. I don't care who they pick. But I think people somehow expect off-spinners to perform like Warnie.

 

[Twizzle]

are you just quoting stats Baz, or did you watch any of those games ?

they do have one pitch, forget its name, that wasn't a rank turner but the others pretty much turn from ball one and the Indians are used to batting on it while Kholi has been in exceptional form, some of the pitches were worse than the one we just played on

Like I said I dont dislike the Goat, its not his fault that he keeps getting picked and he does get a few wickets here and there but for mine its simple, SOK clearly would have got a lot more

if you want to compare the 2 and you are into stats jut look at their first class records and compare the two

 

[Twizzle]

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

are you just quoting stats Baz, or did you watch any of those games ?

they do have one pitch, forget its name, that wasn't a rank turner but the others pretty much turn from ball one and the Indians are used to batting on it while Kholi has been in exceptional form, some of the pitches were worse than the one we just played on

Like I said I dont dislike the Goat, its not his fault that he keeps getting picked and he does get a few wickets here and there but for mine its simple, SOK clearly would have got a lot more

if you want to compare the 2 and you are into stats jut look at their first class records and compare the two

Of course I watch the game (however, I didn't see the last SA test or much of the Pakistan tests...only highlights), and have played it at a pretty fair level. It's really easy to say 'SOK clearly would have got more'. On some pitches for sure. On others, less likely. He doesn't get the flight that Lyon gets, or the overspin. There are pitches that will suit one of the pair quite a bit more than the other bloke.

First class records are relevant, but they're also a very different kettle of fish. Do you wan't Chadd Sayers in the test team? Shield games are fundamentally different, partly because they are 4-day affairs, and partly because of the influence of contrived results / setup declarations. How many of Lyon's FC games are actually for NSW, rather than 3-day tour games?

In terms of the Indian pitches that have generated high first innings totals for the past year....a fair proportion of the 1st innings totals that I cited were scored by the touring team...it's not just Kohli.

Stats can obviously be misleading, particularly over small or selective samples. But wickets, averages and strike rates over 25+ recent tests have some meaning. Lyon is far from the perfect off-spinner. But his record sits well against people often regarded as superior bowlers (e.g. Vettori).

 

[Bazal]

are you just quoting stats Baz, or did you watch any of those games ?

they do have one pitch, forget its name, that wasn't a rank turner but the others pretty much turn from ball one and the Indians are used to batting on it while Kholi has been in exceptional form, some of the pitches were worse than the one we just played on

Like I said I dont dislike the Goat, its not his fault that he keeps getting picked and he does get a few wickets here and there but for mine its simple, SOK clearly would have got a lot more

if you want to compare the 2 and you are into stats jut look at their first class records and compare the two

This pitch was different than most they've produced recently for two reasons....it had bounce, where most of the others were turning with absolutely no bounce, just shooting through low and slow and predictable for batsmen who have grown up on that kind of surface. It was also worse earlier, the others were roads for a day or so and then fell apart. This one was never anything but a piece of shit.

Agree on SOK though, he's always been a better bowler than Lyon. Comparisons to Herath are quite apt, he has a lot of natural variation through his action and he uses the wicket much better than Lyon, and understands where to bowl on different surfaces...Lyon is a very poor attacking spinner, SOK is a very good attacking spinner even if he doesn't rip the ball. He can when he wants to, but he understands spin bowling better than Lyon seems to. There is a reason SOK has more first class 5 wicket hauls than Lyon in fewer games and a reason his bowling average is 15 runs better. He also has a bowling strike rate of 54 as opposed to Lyons 70....

 

[oldmancraigy]

They're very different styles of spinner. Neutrals just laugh at the crap Lyon cops from Australian fans. He's a 1.8 innings per game guy who plays the majority of his tests on wickets that are typically unhelpful to finger spinners (i.e. Australian test grounds). What we will (or may) learn from this series is who is the more effective spinner on the sub-continent. Whether that generalises to Australian (or English) conditions is another issue. Anyway, they both bowled very well in this test, and let's hope they both bowl very well in the next two!

PS: Lyon takes a wicket every 63 balls in Tests. That's pretty good for a finger spinner. Graeme Swann was a little better (60 per wicket), as was Herath (61), Dan Vettori considerably poorer (69 balls per wicket).

Dan Vettori was either horribly overrated, or suffered because NZ's attack was so crap around him that there was no pressure being built.

To be fair, Lyon cops some crap because he has been taking OKeefe's spot ever since he was picked in the test team! OKeefe bowls on the same Aussie pitches to average 22 at FC level..... could he have been one of our great slow bowlers if given the spot 6-7 years ago? I doubt he would have a worse record than Lyon had he been given the chance. But that's pure speculation now!

 

[Bazal]

Dan Vettori was either horribly overrated, or suffered because NZ's attack was so crap around him that there was no pressure being built.

To be fair, Lyon cops some crap because he has been taking OKeefe's spot ever since he was picked in the test team! OKeefe bowls on the same Aussie pitches to average 22 at FC level..... could he have been one of our great slow bowlers if given the spot 6-7 years ago? I doubt he would have a worse record than Lyon had he been given the chance. But that's pure speculation now!

Lyon also cops crap because he is a very defensive spinner. The number of times you see him around the wicket spearing it at leg stump on day 4 and 5 is absolutely ridiculous. Compare that to SOK, who immediately comes around the wicket to the right hander and attacks the stumps...now, sure, SOK has the advantage of spinning the ball away from the right hander, but the mindset is the thing. SOK wants to get the batsman out, you can see that. He attacks with the angle and he attacks the stumps.

As an offie, Lyon is unbelievably unlikely to get LBW and bowled wickets from around the wicket to a right hander. So SOKs mindset is to make all dismissals available, even if it does leave him open to leaking a few runs. Lyon is happy to take some dismissals out of his arsenal to defend runs. That's a big reason why Lyon cops shit at times.

 

[oldmancraigy]

Lyon also cops crap because he is a very defensive spinner. The number of times you see him around the wicket spearing it at leg stump on day 4 and 5 is absolutely ridiculous. Compare that to SOK, who immediately comes around the wicket to the right hander and attacks the stumps...now, sure, SOK has the advantage of spinning the ball away from the right hander, but the mindset is the thing. SOK wants to get the batsman out, you can see that. He attacks with the angle and he attacks the stumps.

As an offie, Lyon is unbelievably unlikely to get LBW and bowled wickets from around the wicket to a right hander. So SOKs mindset is to make all dismissals available, even if it does leave him open to leaking a few runs. Lyon is happy to take some dismissals out of his arsenal to defend runs. That's a big reason why Lyon cops shit at times.

I would have thought Lyon isn't that defensive though? His forte is his ability bowl a really good ball amongst some of the junk he throws out there.
When he is a 'good month' he gets big bags of wickets, then he goes through long dry spells where it seems he couldn't get out you or I if his life depended on it.

SOK is good because he is painfully nagging away at the front pad/ off stump the whole time.
Honestly, when he got 4 fer for AsA against the poms (back in 2010?) they should have picked him - but instead they went for Doherty because 'we need a left armer to get Pieterson out' (um hello?? OKeefe just did that for you...).

Anyway, I maintain that guys who average 40 at FC level will tend towards the same at test level. Lyon (to his credit) has overperformed his ability for Aus, but rarely seems to show up when we need a big effort to bowl us to victory.....

 

[Twizzle]

Of course I watch the game (however, I didn't see the last SA test or much of the Pakistan tests...only highlights), and have played it at a pretty fair level. It's really easy to say 'SOK clearly would have got more'. On some pitches for sure.

First class records are relevant, but they're also a very different kettle of fish. Do you wan't Chadd Sayers in the test team? Shield games are fundamentally different, partly because they are 4-day affairs, and partly because of the influence of contrived results / setup declarations. How many of Lyon's FC games are actually for NSW, rather than 3-day tour games?

In terms of the Indian pitches that have generated high first innings totals for the past year....a fair proportion of the 1st innings totals that I cited were scored by the touring team...it's not just Kohli.

Stats can obviously be misleading, particularly over small or selective samples. But wickets, averages and strike rates over 25+ recent tests have some meaning. Lyon is far from the perfect off-spinner. But his record sits well against people often regarded as superior bowlers (e.g. Vettori).

I watched RSA V India last year and could not believe the pitch, not only did it turn from day one but no bounce at all, this was to negate the RSA bowling attack which it did pretty well. This one did have a little more bounce than most of their dust bowls.

And yeh, I'd have chad Sayers at 4th spot just behind Bird but Cummins is now available for 4 day games so I'm keen to see how he goes for the rest of the season, I dont think he should just walk into the team ahead of Bird just because he's fit and bowled well about 5 years ago, he needs to earn it.

We dont really get too many first class warm up games any more as host nations dont want to give us a leg up so I dont think Lyons 3 day FC stats would be significant.

On others, less likely. He doesn't get the flight that Lyon gets, or the overspin. There are pitches that will suit one of the pair quite a bit more than the other bloke.

Completely agree with this, I expected SOK to do well on these type of pitches but never expected a 12 fer. While Lyon has a lot of flight and over spin its his lack of variation that is his downfall for mine, far too predictable.

Similarly I would bowl the likes of Zampa in India as he is similar to SOK in flight and spin, similar to Kumble, and I would use the like of Swepson at home where more flight and spin is whats needed, like Warnie but Warnie's record in India was pretty average, averaged over 40 I think.

 

[Bazal]

I would have thought Lyon isn't that defensive though? His forte is his ability bowl a really good ball amongst some of the junk he throws out there.
When he is a 'good month' he gets big bags of wickets, then he goes through long dry spells where it seems he couldn't get out you or I if his life depended on it.

SOK is good because he is painfully nagging away at the front pad/ off stump the whole time.
Honestly, when he got 4 fer for AsA against the poms (back in 2010?) they should have picked him - but instead they went for Doherty because 'we need a left armer to get Pieterson out' (um hello?? OKeefe just did that for you...).

Anyway, I maintain that guys who average 40 at FC level will tend towards the same at test level. Lyon (to his credit) has overperformed his ability for Aus, but rarely seems to show up when we need a big effort to bowl us to victory.....

Nah he is very defensively minded. He's not bowling around the wicket to right handers to bowl them around their legs, like a top flight leggie might. I think it's a symptom of that inconsistency you mention....he feels like he can't get a wicket so he goes into his shell and just concentrates on defending runs. He does have a good ball in him, but he also has absolutely no variety so maybe he feels that by strangling batsmen he will get them to make a mistake. Doesn't really work when batsmen are happy to milk him at 2-3 an over though.

Either way, SOK is a much more attacking bowler and his record indicates that. Lyon isn't a bad bowler by any means...I just think his deficiencies outweigh his upside for the most part.

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Behrendorff took the 1st three wickets in Vics 2nd innings (so he has 12 of the first 13 wickets to fall). Cameron Green got the 4th though (and he might an interesting prospect in 2 or 3 years time).