3-2-1 v Titans

[Manu Vatuvei]

I think the plodder thing is hilarious. You could put a mask on him and pretend he's a new player, and no way does a guy with his post contact numbers, work rate, skill at times get called a plodder. But it's stuck to him.

I may be the only one left but you can count me in the ranks of those who definitely disagree with this.

For people quoting his post contact metres, metres per hit up etc - is this genuinely a reflection of the fact that when you watch Ford take a hit up you're thinking he's going to bend or break the line, or is it more a way to retrospectively bolster your praise for him? Compared to a Vaimauga or a Clark hit up for example, do you get more fizzed up when Jacko makes one of his powerhouse charges? I assume the answer I'll get is "yes" but I'm just so far from being there. For me in reality it's more like "here comes another Jackson Ford hit up, time to shift my focus to the next play and see if something interesting happens then".

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I think this week I'm going to try to be laser-focused on the quality of Ford's work so I can try to give him the praise he deserves (infinite).

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I may be the only one left but you can count me in the ranks of those who definitely disagree with this.

For people quoting his post contact metres, metres per hit up etc - is this genuinely a reflection of the fact that when you watch Ford take a hit up you're thinking he's going to bend or break the line, or is it more a way to retrospectively bolster your praise for him? Compared to a Vaimauga or a Clark hit up for example, do you get more fizzed up when Jacko makes one of his powerhouse charges? I assume the answer I'll get is "yes" but I'm just so far from being there. For me in reality it's more like "here comes another Jackson Ford hit up, time to shift my focus to the next play and see if something interesting happens then".

I'd hate to exist in a world or a forum where we didn't disagree. It's nice this is a sanctuary (mostly) where we do so, but it doesn't resort to name calling or death threating.

My opinion of Ford definitely changed in the Roosters game. I was at the ground and I was amazed by his work rate, how he seemed to have developed post contact meters in his game, how much energy he had around the field and that he seemed to have much more than just stats in his game. You could feel the impact he had. Now that's the only game I've gone to, so it's a limited sample size.

What you're saying is fine - there's not a lot of wow factor to a Jackson Ford hit-up, although I feel like he is running support pretty well and does get himself into try scoring situations. It's not like Micheal Luck days where if he got the ball anywhere inside the opposition's 40m, you wondered why the hell they bothered. But you need those dependable effort guys around the Demis, the JFH (man he's been good this year) the Erin Clarks etc.

We've cried out for a dependable guy who makes the squad better with numbers, effort, attitude etc, and on reasonably limited $ as well. His team mates fall over themselves to say how important he is, how great he is for this side. He's not in the Tino, AFB, Haas mould but I reckon sides look at him a lot more now and feel like they need to limit his impact. He might even be a barometer for this side - if Jackson Ford is dropping balls and giving away penalties, the Warriors are off. If he's having to make 50+ tackles, his error rate might go up.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Yeah, Ford is essentially putting up Terrell May 2025 numbers (though with better post contact). If May, who is a bigger body and harder to get to ground, and arguably with a better offload, didn't make Origin, I don't see how Ford does at this point.

That being said, Ford doesn't have the May name, so maybe he's got more chance

Terrell May is a good comparison. They're essential at club level and make a side better for infinite reasons, but I don't see what they add to Origin. When your rotation is AFB, maybe Haas, Barnett, Stefano, maybe Keaon etc, you don't need a 70+ minute guy in that mix. And is Ford in the top 4 NSW props in terms of 40-50min impact? No. Nor is May.

 

[Rich102]

Manu. I get your point, though I disagree with it.
You say "Compared to a Vaimauga or a Clark hit up for example".
Point to remember is this is a team game. Ford is not competing against the others.
He is doing a lot of the hard-yards to allow the ones you mention to have the energy to do theirs.
I have heard Clarke acknowledge this and I am sure the rest of the team does too.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

He is doing a lot of the hard-yards to allow the ones you mention to have the energy to do theirs.

I absolutely appreciate this. Ford's fitness and therefore the work he can take off others is an attribute no-one can deny.

The question is what the best "work allocation" is for the most effective team. I'm not convinced that having one "plodder" who takes more runs than any of his more effective teammates is the optimum strategy. Of course I understand the basic philosophy of "if one guy does a lot of work, the other guys will be fresher".

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

Terrell May is a good comparison. They're essential at club level and make a side better for infinite reasons, but I don't see what they add to Origin. When your rotation is AFB, maybe Haas, Barnett, Stefano, maybe Keaon etc, you don't need a 70+ minute guy in that mix. And is Ford in the top 4 NSW props in terms of 40-50min impact? No. Nor is May.

Yea agree, I posted similar in another thread.

That said, Haas is obviously out now and Wayne may be managing Keaon's knee by playing him off the bench last week, and naming him on the bench again this week.

Loz still has a number of options with AFB locked in, Barney and Leniu back getting some gametime now, and Murray back giving him the option of playing Yeo upfront if/when needed. But he'll be hoping no one else tips over and that Stefano pulls finger soon.

 

[TheDMC]

Yeah, Ford is essentially putting up Terrell May 2025 numbers (though with better post contact). If May, who is a bigger body and harder to get to ground, and arguably with a better offload, didn't make Origin, I don't see how Ford does at this point.

That being said, Ford doesn't have the May name, so maybe he's got more chance

Bearing all this mind, how exactly did Jacob Lillyman become a Queensland regular for awhile? He was just a workhorse prop.

 

[Big Marn]

I absolutely appreciate this. Ford's fitness and therefore the work he can take off others is an attribute no-one can deny.

The question is what the best "work allocation" is for the most effective team. I'm not convinced that having one "plodder" who takes more runs than any of his more effective teammates is the optimum strategy. Of course I understand the basic philosophy of "if one guy does a lot of work, the other guys will be fresher".

Along with what Rich said, if the ultimate strategy is field position and then launch a kick to defend the next set from, considering Ford is averaging more metres per hitup then the rest of the forwards, it makes sense to give him most of the hitups to be closer to the red zone.
If a error is forced, THEN the likes of Vaumaga and Clark come into play with more impactful hitups/offloads in the tackle. Assuming that is the team strategy.

 

[ozenzud]

Along with what Rich said, if the ultimate strategy is field position and then launch a kick to defend the next set from, considering Ford is averaging more metres per hitup then the rest of the forwards, it makes sense to give him most of the hitups to be closer to the red zone.
If a error is forced, THEN the likes of Vaumaga and Clark come into play with more impactful hitups/offloads in the tackle. Assuming that is the team strategy.

I think possession and field position this is something that we all understand now, but we still want to see a Vilasanti, or a Paleaeasina running off the back fence and ripping in the line, hair and sweat flying on contact, bodies flying in all directions and the crowd roaring and leaping to their feet. Jackson Ford steeping as he hits the line, swerving into the tackle, often with his back to the tackler, and taking 3 steps with two guys hanging onto him, doesn't appear quite so combative, physical and plain entertaining. But its effective.

We won games in the past with that combative, flashy, play and player. But we ain't won any trophies except the minor premiership in 2002, when we have the biggest, flashiest team maybe ever! Go back ad watch those games now! There would be a whole team suspended every week! I could not get over the head highs!

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

If Ford's carries are "effective" (whatever that means) then there's absolutely no issue, and I'm in no position to argue that he's been ineffective this season.

It's more a question about the value of a hypothetical forward who struggles to carry effectively but takes a lot of carries (arguably Michael Luck was in this category, arguably Ford has been in the past - but that's all "arguable").

 

[marlins2.0]

It's Wah syndrome. Get so used to bagging a bloke that we do it even when they're going gangbusters!

Jokes aside, surely the bloke gets a stand named after him?

 

[Izz]

Bearing all this mind, how exactly did Jacob Lillyman become a Queensland regular for awhile? He was just a workhorse prop.

Good point!

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Queensland have a history of picking plodders, particularly in the forwards, while NSW have tended to be averse to it (although ironically NSW have also had a tendency to not pick small, fast backs).

As much as anything that's because Queensland have generally had fewer players to pick from, but I think to some extent it's become part of their culture/DNA. It's like if they pick some undersized forward to get belted all day, suffer multiple concussions and get a gaping head wound stapled back together it enhances their collective Origin Spirit.

tbh it's not inconceivable that NSW might have an epiphany that they need to pick "Queensland-style" forwards and pick Jacko.

 

[marlins2.0]

Queensland have a history of picking plodders, particularly in the forwards, while NSW have tended to be averse to it (although ironically NSW have also had a tendency to not pick small, fast backs).

As much as anything that's because Queensland have generally had fewer players to pick from, but I think to some extent it's become part of their culture/DNA. It's like if they pick some undersized forward to get belted all day, suffer multiple concussions and get a gaping head wound stapled back together it enhances their collective Origin Spirit.

tbh it's not inconceivable that NSW might have an epiphany that they need to pick "Queensland-style" forwards and pick Jacko.

Ironically the bloke most well known for getting stapled back together was a plodder for NSW...and he was an outside back!