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3rd ODI: New Zealand v Sri Lanka at Nelson on Dec 31, 2015

typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,488
Bevan would manipulate the field and the scoring rate and adjust it just right to chase the score required. He also batted well with the bowlers and often formed crucial partnerships with them. If Bevan needed a SR of 70 to win he would probably bat around 72. That was part of his ability.

Maxwell has a great strike rate but if I want a finisher that bats at 6 or 7 then I want someone who can be relied on to get the job done. Especially in an all time team.
 

JJ

Immortal
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32,787
Yep, if you're looking at all-time, SR's need to be taken with a grain of salt - for an Australian ODI team, for instance, Greg Chappell, Michael Bevan and Dean Jones have to be in or very close 3-4-5 might be Ponting, Jones, Chappell? but their SRs would be low compared to modern players, just not sure that matters
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
You're comparing strike rates like they've always been the same - Turner was a one day genius, that was a different game in a different era - he, Astle and Crowe are certainties imo - forgot Chris Cairns, he's probably the one - and obviously a hugely superior bowler - anyway, like I said not too much thought - but I don't really give a toss what Turner's SR was, he was revolutionary in an era that was somewhat different - please don't tell me you'd pick someone like Guptill ahead of Glenn Turner? Or even Astle

Yes. I would.

Your ODI "genius" Turner only played a mere 41 matches.

He averaged 27 against Australia, 27 Pakistan and 28 West Indies.

He scored 3 centuries, one against East Africa - 179* and one against Sri Lanka in 1983. Sri Lanka got test status in 1982. He made 83* against them in 1979.

He decimated India in the mid 70's when Maden Lal, the medium bowler was the "strike seamer" and a lot of medium pacers and spinners tried to compete in Christchurch and Manchester. He never played them in India. Only his final match against India was an attack that included Kapil Dev, in 1979, when Turner batted at 4, and both openers made 50's. Turner made 43* in that match, to go with his 2 50's and a century on NZ and English pitches against a spin attack.

How exactly do you conclude that Turner was a ODI genius? A couple of big 50's against a England team heading home from a lost test series in Australia in 1983? Even those knocks only got his average to 32 against them. And they were his only 50's against England.

32 is not the stuff of a genius.
 
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typicalfan

Coach
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15,488
An Aussie team would be difficult due to having to pick between similar players like Bevan and Hussey. Also you would have Gilchrist opening which means you could have both Faulkner and one of Bevan or Hussey. Probably couldn't have both. Wouldn't consider Watto or Maxwell.
 

JJ

Immortal
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32,787
Yes. I would.

Your ODI "genius" Turner only played a mere 41 matches.

He averaged 27 against Australia, 27 Pakistan and 28 West Indies.

He scored 3 centuries, one against East Africa - 179* and one against Sri Lanka in 1983. Sri Lanka got test status in 1982. He made 83* against them in 1979.

He decimated India in the mid 70's when Maden Lal, the medium bowler was the "strike seamer" and a lot of medium pacers and spinners tried to compete in Christchurch and Manchester. He never played them in India. Only his final match against India was an attack that included Kapil Dev, in 1979, when Turner batted at 4, and both openers made 50's. Turner made 43* in that match, to go with his 2 50's and a century on NZ and English pitches against a spin attack.

How exactly do you conclude that Turner was a ODI genius? A couple of 50's against a England team heading home from a test series in Australia in 1983?

As you well know he was exiled from international cricket for a long while - I'm strongly of the opinion he remains our greatest bat - imo better than Crowe, of course I didn't see Dempster, Donnelly or Sutcliffe - Williamson likely to overtake all, but Turner like those earlier players is a case of what he could have been, unfortunately

The English county scene was very demanding and he was a force in all cricket there, his utilising the field restrictions and chipping over the top was very special
 

JJ

Immortal
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32,787
An Aussie team would be difficult due to having to pick between similar players like Bevan and Hussey. Also you would have Gilchrist opening which means you could have both Faulkner and one of Bevan or Hussey. Probably couldn't have both. Wouldn't consider Watto or Maxwell.

Of course, that's the point I guess... Steve Waugh could also come into consideration for the 6-7 spot as early on his bowling was tremendous

I'd be thinking (again, off the top of my head)
Gilchrist
Not sure - Mark Waugh perhaps, and to bowl a few overs
Ponting
Jones
Chappell
Hussey
Bevan
Lee
Warne
Lillee
McGrath
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
As you well know he was exiled from international cricket for a long while - I'm strongly of the opinion he remains our greatest bat - imo better than Crowe, of course I didn't see Dempster, Donnelly or Sutcliffe - Williamson likely to overtake all, but Turner like those earlier players is a case of what he could have been, unfortunately

The English county scene was very demanding and he was a force in all cricket there, his utilising the field restrictions and chipping over the top was very special

FC and test batsmen - no doubt - Turner was a great test batsman.

But in ODI cricket, were some SR is required - he only regularly successfully punished spinners outside of Asia.

So I feel no qualms about questioning his place in any ATG ODI NZ team; and further, have no qualms about leaving him out, altogether.
 

typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,488
Of course, that's the point I guess... Steve Waugh could also come into consideration for the 6-7 spot as early on his bowling was tremendous

I'd be thinking (again, off the top of my head)
Gilchrist
Not sure - Mark Waugh perhaps, and to bowl a few overs
Ponting
Jones
Chappell
Hussey
Bevan
Lee
Warne
Lillee
McGrath


Junior would be the other opener. Apart from his batting he also has the best pair of hands. Some would argue that Faulkner hasn't proven himself over a long period of time but I would pick him over either Bevan or Hussey for better balance.

Another guy I'd consider is Andrew Symonds especially post 2003. Very aggressive, can bowl and a gun field which is especially important in limited overs cricket. He would at least be in the squad.
 

Meth

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
35,795
No apologies to Sir Richard here. No ATG World XI named. There is a middle of Maxwell, Anderson and Faulkner chosen by me ahead of Bevan as I said - even De Villiers and Viv batting 3 is discussed as batsmen far greater than Bevan. No openers and no bowlers. No ATG World XI is named. So why you are posting this link after what I said above seems unnecessary. Maybe you can make six = eleven.

Well, there's no apologies to Sir Richard because you edited your post...unfortunately for you, I quoted it in reply before you did and that can be seen at the bottom of the page.

We can play games if you want, but you were talking about Corey Anderson in the context of a Word XI.

I think you need to take a break from posting for a while champ...this is getting a bit silly.
 

JJ

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32,787
Junior would be the other opener. Apart from his batting he also has the best pair of hands. Some would argue that Faulkner hasn't proven himself over a long period of time but I would pick him over either Bevan or Hussey for better balance.

Another guy I'd consider is Andrew Symonds especially post 2003. Very aggressive, can bowl and a gun field which is especially important in limited overs cricket. He would at least be in the squad.

With the lineup I chose, Chappell and Waugh could share the overs - with the other bowlers and the batting lineup that would work - only the Windies could compete - and they'd be better, I think
 

typicalfan

Coach
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15,488
I agree the West Indies probably have the better side on paper.

The key would be Shane Warne imo. The great West Indian batsmen of the 70s and 80s would never have faced someone like Warne. If they could handle him I'd say West Indies. If not Australia.
 

Meth

Moderator
Staff member
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35,795
All time NZ ODI side would be interesting though - these things are hard given the changes in how ODIs are played - obviously Gavin Larsen for example couldn't keep anything like that RPO now, but still he was excellent in that era so imo warrants consideration, and Harris (like Bevan) was decent at a role then - but the game has evolved...

For me there are certainties, and lots of debate - but without too much thought, something like:
1. Astle
2. Turner
3. Williamson
4. Crowe
5. Taylor
6. xxx
7. McCullum (k)
8. Hadlee
9. Vetorri
10.Mills
11. Bond

at 6 there are many options - Fleming although he should be higher, Harris although I never liked him, Styris, Coney -leaning towards the Pig... but could have mental blocks, sorry no place yet for Corey :lol: imo

Astle
Fleming (c)
Williamson
Crowe
Styris
Harris
McCullum
Hadlee
Vettori
Mills
Bond

Had to choose Fleming over Turner

Had to choose Williamson and Crowe over Taylor

Had to choose Harris over Cairns...a poor mans Michael Bevan, but the closest we've had and handy with the ball as well.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Well, there's no apologies to Sir Richard because you edited your post...unfortunately for you, I quoted it in reply before you did and that can be seen at the bottom of the page.

Why would Sir Richard Hadlee be in a discussion about Michael Bevan?

Think about it Meth.

I edit - but nothing about Anderson, Maxwell, Faulkner, Viv or De Villiers - high SR batsmen, has anything to do with Sir Richard Hadlee.

We can play games if you want, but you were talking about Corey Anderson in the context of a Word XI.

Read the posts in the context. I re-posted them for you. You said I named an All Time XI. I did not. Don't get upset with me because you lack precision. Write what you mean, edit if you have to. I cannot read your mind, so I'm left reading your words.

I think you need to take a break from posting for a while champ...this is getting a bit silly.

I think you need to be more accurate with your reading and comprehension. Posting on forums is often silly.
 
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Meth

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Staff member
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35,795
Why would Sir Richard Hadlee be in a discussion about Michael Bevan?

Think about it Meth.

I edit - but nothing about Anderson, Maxwell, Faulkner, Viv or De Villiers - high SR batsmen, has anything to do with Sir Richard Hadlee.

Your pre-edited post, quoted in post #945 http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=395853&page=63#fwIX0qz67CBwjk5q.97

"Viv is great.

AB De Villiers is the man to bat 5... Or better yet, put him at 3, Viv at 4. Or Vice Versa.

And put Maxwell and Anderson at 5 and 6.

Heck squeeze Kohli into the top with AB keeping, and Maxwell and Anderson play 6 and 7. Faulkner at 8. And drop Watto. UNless you want batting depth at 9. To bowl with Garner and Bond (sorry Sir Richard)"
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Your pre-edited post, quoted in post #945 http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=395853&page=63#fwIX0qz67CBwjk5q.97

"Viv is great.

AB De Villiers is the man to bat 5... Or better yet, put him at 3, Viv at 4. Or Vice Versa.

And put Maxwell and Anderson at 5 and 6.

Heck squeeze Kohli into the top with AB keeping, and Maxwell and Anderson play 6 and 7. Faulkner at 8. And drop Watto. UNless you want batting depth at 9. To bowl with Garner and Bond (sorry Sir Richard)"

Okay.

But I still did not name an XI as you claimed.

And it was edited out for not being at all relevant to Bevan and middle order batsmen.
 

Meth

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
35,795
You said I named an All Time XI. I did not. Don't get upset with me because you lack precision. Write what you mean, edit if you have to. I cannot read your mind, so I'm left reading your words.

Ok, I said you posted at All Time XI, when really you were discussing the composition of an All Time XI.

But you were still having a conversation about what an All Time World XI might look like and you suggested Corey Anderson.

So who's the dopey one?
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Ok, I said you posted at All Time XI, when really you were discussing the composition of an All Time XI.

But you were still having a conversation about what an All Time World XI might look like and you suggested Corey Anderson.

So who's the dopey one?

Why don't you read the following:

Further, I did not name any all time ODI XI - but I think he would be very close if not starting in my ATG NZ ODI team - so that is fine. He's definitely in the shortlist squad. I think what you're referring to is that I may have said that I would have Glen Maxwell and Corey Anderson and James Faulkner in any ATG middle order all well ahead of Michael Bevan.

I never denied discussing Corey Anderson in that context.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
ffs Antilag, you're so painfully snapped

Huh? I'm not "snapped" at all.

Further, I did not name any all time ODI XI - but I think he would be very close if not starting in my ATG NZ ODI team - so that is fine. He's definitely in the shortlist squad. I think what you're referring to is that I may have said that I would have Glen Maxwell and Corey Anderson and James Faulkner in any ATG middle order all well ahead of Michael Bevan.

I repeat, I never denied discussing Corey Anderson in that context.

There is no point in playing "gotcha" when there is nothing to be got, Meth.
 
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