AFL in $45 million money grab

[Green Machine]

KELVIN SHONKY: Oh, no. No. No, I mean, obviously when you look at what - we’ve been in western Sydney for eight years. That’s what a lot of people don’t realise. The ground we got to build out there is the size of the MCG. We’ve worked with governments - both state governments, local and obviously federal government for eight years to build the stadiums that are out there. We’re going to come back in and hopefully help reignite Homebush and play our home games there and from a point of view - you know, when you think about it, probably in the last 10 years since the Olympic Games, which I thought were just Sydney’s greatest advertisement for this nation as a city, absolutely fantastic, probably we need an injection here in Sydney and maybe - maybe - some sports like the soccer Rovers who are coming out to the west, too, and the AFL might be one of the injections out west and that’s what we’re intending to do.

Did you know the GWS AFL Celtics are going to help reignite Homebush Bay?
Did you know that Western Sydney needs an injection something similar to the 2000 Olympics and GWS AFL Celtics will do it?

 

[Green Machine]

Because the AFL and Royal Agricultural Society aren't interested in spending money on ANZ. By upgrading the showgrounds they are drawing 15 million extra dollars for the west of Sydney, improving the facilities for other sporting and event organisations of different levels that will use it now and those they can draw in the future, and they help set up the GWS football side, which will bring jobs and tourism to Sydney.

The stadium at the showground is only 12 years old. Besides the show, it was built to accommodation baseball at the 2000 Olympics. The stadium has plenty of elevated seating. The bulldogs were enticed there for 2 seasons and then rejected it for a financially superior deal at ANZ. The biggest problem for viewing rugby league at the showground is you a bit far back. To reconfigure it to a full size AFL ground would make it less attractive to rugby league, soccer or union. In fact, besides the odd union match on the day of a Union test at ANZ Stadium I can’t remember any other event being held on in outside the Easter Show. Besides AFL, I can’t see any other sport being interested in playing there,

 

[Big Mick]

60 millions dollars doesent just get dropped into a hole. Its paid to architectural firms to managers and architects, then construction companies to contractors and sub-contractors. Every one of them spends their money on food and cars and houses, and TVs and boats, and the food vendors, car dealers, real estate agents, and TV salesmen all keep their jobs and go buy all the same stuff.

This is why capital works are a good idea during times of economic crisis, because the stimulus goes well beyond the initial investment.

Because the AFL and Royal Agricultural Society aren't interested in spending money on ANZ. By upgrading the showgrounds they are drawing 15 million extra dollars for the west of Sydney, improving the facilities for other sporting and event organisations of different levels that will use it now and those they can draw in the future, and they help set up the GWS football side, which will bring jobs and tourism to Sydney.

You are right, that the money spent on infrastructure is a great idea.

However, this is a WASTE of infrastructure. The Government will not see a return on their investment for quite some time.

No other sport will play sports in this environment.

There are plenty of other projects in which that $45m could be spent where it would be VITAL for the state of NSW, rather than a luxury project to benefit the AFL.

You have also failed to tell me how the GWS side will bring tourism. Again, Blacktown to Homebush isn't tourism. Why would people travel up to Sydney in bulk? hardly any would.

As for creating jobs, that is incorrect. These people would be the same people that are currently employed by the contractors of which service the Sydney Olympic Park Trust.

My argument isn't again spending the money on infrastructure, I'm just very critical of the choice of spending. There are plenty of other issues that the state government could address with that money. This is purely to cater ego's of the AFL, which I find astounding considering that the Government has wasted a significant amount of opportunities in attracting more major events to ANZ stadium because it is a "multi-purpose" stadium, rather than a premiere rectangular ground.

The AFL have backflipped on a committment to play out of ANZ when GWS would enter the competition, however they now want another $45m for a luxury development to cater for their ego's when they only get 10-20k to each game.

 

[Ray Mosters]

You are right, that the money spent on infrastructure is a great idea.

However, this is a WASTE of infrastructure. The Government will not see a return on their investment for quite some time.

No other sport will play sports in this environment.

Wont they? There are numerous local, school and city level sporting and event organisations that can use the ground, and in terms of top level sport, well the bulldogs already played there, so its hardly out of the question as a (more appropriately sized) venue for league, soccer and union. And it would be just right for some Twenty20.

Still, you are correct, there is very little other than GWS games that is guaranteed, and thats not even a full schedule of GWS games, just the 9 lowest drawing ones... their bigger crowd draws will all be played next door at ANZ, with or without this investment.

There are plenty of other projects in which that $45m could be spent where it would be VITAL for the state of NSW, rather than a luxury project to benefit the AFL.

Perhaps your right, but your point harkens back to what I said was a quintessential question of civics, how do you justify spending on sporting infrastructure when there are so many other worthy ways to spend public money. After all...all sport is by definition leisure and luxury spending!

The Melbourne stadium is a classic example, all the square field codes had workable solutions before the new stadium. Now you can complain about Olympic Park being atrocious and thats true, and Docklands being set up for AFL, and thats true too, but the Storm, Victory, Rebels and Heart (snigger) werent going to go out of business without a new stadium. The new stadium isnt going to bring in thousands of new tourists or fans, some maybe but not thousands... the bubble stadium was and is a luxury project for those codes, really no different to the showgrounds, differing only in the scale.

Now, 300 million buys alot of hospital and school upgrades, perhaps they should have put their money into them?

Now those codes are obviously alot less popular than AFL, perhaps they should have upgraded the MCG to the tune of 300 million?

Sure, you can say "Well obviously there are alot more teams playing square field codes in Melbourne" but is there 6.6 times as many? Because 300m is ALOT more than 45m.

Obviously I'm pleased about Melbourne getting a square stadium, but dont pretend the choices are any different...its fringe sports getting a handout for infrastructure.

You have also failed to tell me how the GWS side will bring tourism. Again, Blacktown to Homebush isn't tourism. Why would people travel up to Sydney in bulk? hardly any would.

Just as they get along to games alot more often, AFL fans travel, even moreso than league fans. They travel to Sydney every second week to watch the Swans, they fill hotels and bars and restaurants and golf courses.

The AFL no doubt has their own estimations of what a second Sydney side will be worth to the economy of Sydney.

As for creating jobs, that is incorrect. These people would be the same people that are currently employed by the contractors of which service the Sydney Olympic Park Trust.

Sorry which job creation are you referring too here? The initial construction or the ongoing jobs?

My argument isn't again spending the money on infrastructure, I'm just very critical of the choice of spending. There are plenty of other issues that the state government could address with that money. This is purely to cater ego's of the AFL, which I find astounding considering that the Government has wasted a significant amount of opportunities in attracting more major events to ANZ stadium because it is a "multi-purpose" stadium, rather than a premiere rectangular ground.

As I said, the AFL gave them an offer that was very good, they offered them a significantly upgraded Showgrounds for use by the RAS and the community, and 60 million dollars of capital works, for the price of 45 million.

I daresay there isnt much the NSW government can spend its money on that is that good value for money, other than the NRL grand final, which of course they have got at the same time.

The AFL have backflipped on a committment to play out of ANZ when GWS would enter the competition, however they now want another $45m for a luxury development to cater for their ego's when they only get 10-20k to each game.

Wait I thought the AFL committed GWS to playing out at Blacktown?? I have heard different things in this thread.

The truth is they did neither, they lobbied (and helped pay) for upgrades to Blacktown as a training and administrative ground, which can only host preseason matches. They cant play regular season matches out there as the transport links are not up to scratch and the capacity is too low. The also have a long standing contractual obligation to play 3 games per year at ANZ and no more. That didnt change when they announced GWS. ANZ is just the back up plan if nothing more suitable could be arranged.

Since then they have evidently been working on a suitable deal to entice investment from the NSW government.

 

[Sunshine Coast Tiger]

With a change of Government a formality in March 2011, I want the opposition to come out and say they will scrap this stupid project and use the money more wisely.

Stuff AFL, I am not a Liberal voter but I will vote for them if they scrap this stupid AFL project.

I live in Western Sydney, Football (Soccer) and League are the biggest sports in this area by a long way.

The capacity of the AFL facility at Blacktown (i think it is 10,000) should be more than sufficient for the crowds they will attract.

 

[Green Machine]

Wont they? There are numerous local, school and city level sporting and event organisations that can use the ground,

Hang on, local and school sports don’t need to play in a stadium. They only need to play on field. How are local and school sports going to afford the fees to rent out a stadium?

and in terms of top level sport, well the bulldogs already played there, so its hardly out of the question as a (more appropriately sized) venue for league, soccer and union.

What part of the Bulldog fans hated it don’t you understand? If it’s bad viewing for Rugby League, why would it be good for Union or Soccer? Why would Rugby League, Union or Soccer play there, when there are far superior facilities at other venues in Sydney?

And it would be just right for some Twenty20.

Why would cricket play Twenty20 there, when they play it currently at ANZ Stadium for big dollars? Did you know the AFL venue at Rooty Hill is also a cricket facility? Not to mention the SCG,

Still, you are correct, there is very little other than GWS games that is guaranteed, and thats not even a full schedule of GWS games, just the 9 lowest drawing ones... their bigger crowd draws will all be played next door at ANZ, with or without this investment.

The ones that will draw over 10k?

 

[applesauce]

Wait I thought the AFL committed GWS to playing out at Blacktown?? I have heard different things in this thread.

The truth is they did neither, they lobbied (and helped pay) for upgrades to Blacktown as a training and administrative ground, which can only host preseason matches. They cant play regular season matches out there as the transport links are not up to scratch and the capacity is too low. The also have a long standing contractual obligation to play 3 games per year at ANZ and no more. That didnt change when they announced GWS. ANZ is just the back up plan if nothing more suitable could be arranged.

Since then they have evidently been working on a suitable deal to entice investment from the NSW government.

I think he means the backflip when post-olympics the AFL forced the NSW government to make ANZ multi-purpose instead of retangular so when it had a 2nd Sydney team it could utilise the facility.

And I'm not sure if you know Homebush (ANZ) is 45mins away from Blacktown and ANZ is next to the showgrounds. The AFL will have no games in Blacktown, going to be interesting to see how they go.

 

[Ray Mosters]

What part of the Bulldog fans hated it don’t you understand? If it’s bad viewing for Rugby League, why would it be good for Union or Soccer? Why would Rugby League, Union or Soccer play there, when there are far superior facilities at other venues in Sydney?

?? I was under the impression that the reason they moved next door was because of the financial enticement in the form of a guaranteed gate takings figure. ie as you originally stated it

The bulldogs were enticed there for 2 seasons and then rejected it for a financially superior deal at ANZ.

Not fan dissatisfaction. Having a guaranteed gate takings, and therefore a guaranteed future income that can be relied upon and borrowed against, is a massive deal for a club.

And would the bulldogs fans not prefer a stadium they can mostly fill and create some atmosphere at?

As for why anyone would play there, well for the same reasons the Dogs played there, they can make a profit there and there is good transport links.

Why would cricket play Twenty20 there, when they play it currently at ANZ Stadium for big dollars? Did you know the AFL venue at Rooty Hill is also a cricket facility? Not to mention the SCG,

All fair points.

The ones that will draw over 10k?

Ha, precisely

 

[Ray Mosters]

I think he means the backflip when post-olympics the AFL forced the NSW government to make ANZ multi-purpose instead of retangular so when it had a 2nd Sydney team it could utilise the facility.

Ahh i see. So how did the AFL force the NSW government to reconfigure the ground exactly? Was it at gunpoint perhaps?

And when exactly did they promise a second side would play there? Correct me if im wrong here but they committed only to playing 3 games a year there, not basing a second side there.

 

[Jamberoo]

Can't argue with much of that Ray.
I wish governments on all levels put more money into community infrastructure.
WIN stadium upgrade is way overdue, but it will still be B-grade.

 

[Green Machine]

?? I was under the impression that the reason they moved next door was because of the financial enticement in the form of a guaranteed gate takings figure. ie as you originally stated it

There was fan dissatisfaction with the showground. Compare the Bulldog crowd at ANZ to crowds at the Showground. The fans hated distance from the stands to the sideline,

Not fan dissatisfaction. Having a guaranteed gate takings, and therefore a guaranteed future income that can be relied upon and borrowed against, is a massive deal for a club.

The Bulldogs are one of the richest clubs in the NRL. See above,

And would the bulldogs fans not prefer a stadium they can mostly fill and create some atmosphere at?

I’m a member of ANZ Stadium and can tell you that the Bulldog fans are the loudest in the NRL. I’ve turned up late at ANZ and have been walking past the southern end to get to the western entrance and if the Bulldogs score a try, the noise is deafening outside the stadium. A 20k crowd with both the lower tier stands are pushed out, full makes great atmosphere. A lot better than the showground,

As for why anyone would play there, well for the same reasons the Dogs played there, they can make a profit there and there is good transport links.

Transport links are great at Homebush. I’m not sure who else would play there? Parramatta has an excellent rugby league stadium and Parramatta has great public transport. I couldn’t think of one professional sporting team in Sydney who would be interested in sharing a revamped showground with an AFL sized playing field. Can you?

 

[Green Machine]

Ahh i see. So how did the AFL force the NSW government to reconfigure the ground exactly? Was it at gunpoint perhaps?

No it wasn't. It was Bob Carr's stupidity,

And when exactly did they promise a second side would play there?

It was announced in 1998. The AFL ran a campaign that the Kangaroos were going to be Western Sydney's team,

Correct me if im wrong here but they committed only to playing 3 games a year there, not basing a second side there.

No mention at that time. It was all Kangaroos. When the Kangaroos got rejected after a few games at the SCG, the 3 games thing surfaced when the Swans were going to be the only AFL team in sydney,

 

[seanoff]

I think he means the backflip when post-olympics the AFL forced the NSW government to make ANZ multi-purpose instead of retangular so when it had a 2nd Sydney team it could utilise the facility.

ANZ had to movable and have rounded ends from the start. The athletics track sort of dictated the shape.

there is no engineering solution (within reason) that could have turned ANZ into a square stadium with the upper decks on the east and west sides closer than they currently are or having square ends.

the ends have already being significantly re-done and had 4 bays at each end removed as well as covered.

the only sensible thing, cost wise for ANZ is for the roof to be completed. it can be a completely covered stadium with an opaque roof.

Also ANZ will be getting some international and state cricket, something that couldn't be done with a rectangular field. If you are an investor, you want as much flexibility as you can get. not just a rectangular field. and tbf, people don't turn up to a perfect for league rectangular stadium (SFS) so so why would you bother to limit yourself.

 

[Green Machine]

ANZ had to movable and have rounded ends from the start. The athletics track sort of dictated the shape.

You’re talking pure sh*t. The whole bottom bowl was rebuilt after the Olympics

there is no engineering solution (within reason) that could have turned ANZ into a square stadium with the upper decks on the east and west sides closer than they currently are or having square ends.

the ends have already being significantly re-done and had 4 bays at each end removed as well as covered.

the only sensible thing, cost wise for ANZ is for the roof to be completed. it can be a completely covered stadium with an opaque roof.

When the bottom bowl was rebuilt, the end could have been built closer in. A second tier could have been constructed at the ends (similar, but larger than the northern end). The playing surface could have been lowered and put more people in the bottom bowl. The seats at the back of level 6 are too far away. We should have ended up with a stadium like Manchester got after the Commonwealth games,

Also ANZ will be getting some international and state cricket, something that couldn't be done with a rectangular field.

Cricket should stay at the SCG,

If you are an investor, you want as much flexibility as you can get. not just a rectangular field. and tbf, people don't turn up to a perfect for league rectangular stadium (SFS) so so why would you bother to limit yourself.

Do realise that ANZ hosts International Union and soccer as well? Do you realise it hosts rock concerts as well? It has the up coming Ben Hur event?

 

[grayham]

Just to correct two points on ANZ's configuration.

Yes, the AFL were planning on having a 2nd team in Sydney when the reconfiguration was done. They signed on for 6 games per year (not sure where the others would be played), with a break even crowd of 25,000

When North Melbourne pulled out, had to renegotiate but with the same cost base, which the AFL forced the swans to take 3 games there, and with a break even of 50,000. Luckily the swans were getting those sort of crowds, but obviously werent happy with being able to draw 50,000 fans, and walk away with nothing. After a few years, this was renegotiated down a bit.

Secondly, when the state government was deciding what to do with ANZ after the olympics, they were very keen to secure AFL because the realised that normal NRL H&A games wouldnt get big enough crowds. A perfectly reasonable view as in he few years up to 2000, AFL (Swans) were getting around 30K average, whereas NRL was only around 12K. It needed AFL to complement SOO, Rugby union tests, and soccer internationals. Remember ANZ was carrying a lot of debt, and had to maximize all possible revenue.

Only once the debt was restructued, did it actively court the NRL teams a few years ago.

 

[Sunshine Coast Tiger]

Again I state that $45 million to the AFL is a waste of our money.

The facility at Blacktown (10,000 capacity) should be fine for GWS matches. No one in the west gives a crap about AFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TheCollector]

The AFL will never take over NSW or QLD. If soccer can't, the AFL will not.

 

[Green Machine]

Just to correct two points on ANZ's configuration.

Yes, the AFL were planning on having a 2nd team in Sydney when the reconfiguration was done. They signed on for 6 games per year (not sure where the others would be played), with a break even crowd of 25,000

Is that so? And here was me thinking it was their lack of ability to sell memberships that put them in the red,

When North Melbourne pulled out, had to renegotiate but with the same cost base, which the AFL forced the swans to take 3 games there, and with a break even of 50,000. Luckily the swans were getting those sort of crowds, but obviously werent happy with being able to draw 50,000 fans, and walk away with nothing. After a few years, this was renegotiated down a bit.

Secondly, when the state government was deciding what to do with ANZ after the olympics, they were very keen to secure AFL because the realised that normal NRL H&A games wouldnt get big enough crowds.

bullsh*t

A perfectly reasonable view as in he few years up to 2000, AFL (Swans) were getting around 30K average, whereas NRL was only around 12K.

In 1998, Canterbury played 12 games at Belmore and averaged 8363. In 1999, they moved to Stadium Australia and their average went up around 17k. The Dogs moved away at the end of 2000. It wasn’t until 2003 that the bottom bowl was renovated at Stadium Australia to make it more viewer friendly for Rugby League. In 2003, the Dogs were back for 6 home games,

It needed AFL to complement SOO, Rugby union tests, and soccer internationals. Remember ANZ was carrying a lot of debt, and had to maximize all possible revenue.

Is that so? Not a mention of the NRL Grand Final? Stadium Australia from 1999 also hosted the NRL season opening double headers and some Easter double headers. The first match at Stadium Australia in 1999 was an NRL double header, which attracted a crowd of 104,583. In 2000, the double header attracted 62,253. Since 1999, Stadium Australia has hosted a game from the 3rd week of the final series. Stadium Australia hosted a Test match in 2000. A little bit more that just State of Origin,

Only once the debt was restructued, did it actively court the NRL teams a few years ago.

Hogwash. I would say it had more to do with reconfiguration. In 2003, the Bulldogs played in 6 games at Stadium Australia
In 2004, the Panthers played the Roosters in the round 4 grand final replay.
The Bulldogs played 6 games there again in 2004. The Bulldogs moved back permanently in 2005 and the West Tigers played 5 games there in 2005,

 

[Brutus]

PS I'm not sure the Barry O'Farrell is the ideal person to be contacting on this... he is a Victorian who is an avid AFL fan, and he supports Richmond

We just can't win. I remember him going on about AFL once, that explains it.

Bring back Nick Greiner!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[In-goal]

Defence.....Defence......Defence,

Christ, the number of uninformed posts here is ridiculous. Green Machine are you using fact, or just heart felt opinion???

The biggest issue with ANZ is the Sydney public, no more no less. I can't believe the the govenment continues to waste money on Kograh, Brookvale and the the like, why not just have central stadiums?

We whinge when someone looks to be given a leg up! we whinge when we shoot ourselves in the foot! just give it up, Rugby League needs the assistance of other sports to increase all infrastructure both in training facilities and in stadium. 12K attending a match dosen't give government a warm fuzzy feeling when looking to lockout new sports.