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Alex McKinnon possibly Quadriplegic - Mclean guilty of dangerous throw - 7 weeks

How many weeks?

  • 1-2

    Votes: 53 42.7%
  • 3-4

    Votes: 25 20.2%
  • 5-6

    Votes: 10 8.1%
  • 7-8

    Votes: 10 8.1%
  • 9+

    Votes: 26 21.0%

  • Total voters
    124
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magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
Messages
21,875
I get where all the people saying being allowed to drop the ball is a good idea, however, if the refs did their jobs and penalised every single tackle that has gone past horizontal it wouldn't matter about the ball. You would drop it and still receive a penalty. The current rule actually being enforced would allow the dropping of the ball.

Sure but given no penalty can guarantee something like this will never happen adding an extra protection that has no impact on the game seems fairly harmless.
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
If you want to stop gang tackling, then start rewarding one on one tackling. A couple easy changes:

1) Any one on one tackle means the tackled player cannot play the ball until the tackler is square at marker, signified by a call of "play it" by the ref when the marker is ready

2) Any 2 person group tackle initiated around the legs WITHOUT lifting e.g. one low, then one high. Shall be deemed a dominant tackle and the tacklers will be given additional time to hold down

3) As soon as forward progress is halted, held is called. Additional time allowed for tacklers to get back to marker


Seriously all this wrestling nonsense only came about when the rules were changed to punish text book tackling styles in an effort to artificially speed up the play the ball. Once players started getting pinged for holding onto the legs and holding down, coaches had to develop wrestling techniques to hold up the player, extend the tackle, and give their side a chance to get back onside again.

Remove all the stupid "holding down" and "MOOOOOOVE" calls from the game and wrestling suddenly becomes redundant.

This is an excellent post.
 

nick87

Coach
Messages
12,343
1) Any one on one tackle means the tackled player cannot play the ball until the tackler is square at marker, signified by a call of "play it" by the ref when the marker is ready

Team A is beating Team B in the NRL Grand Final. Score is 24-22. There is 2 minutes left on the clock.
Team B makes a break from deep in their own half, winger streams down the sidelines but is cut down 15 metres out from the try line in a one on one tackle.

Tackler then lays on the ground for a few seconds, slowly gets to his feet because he's out of brethe and after about 6-7 seconds, finally takes his place at marker, by which time his entire team is back on side and ready to defend.

Sound good?
No thank you.
 

BranVan3000

Coach
Messages
12,275
I think these angles are not very flattering for McLean
F3mJJrC.jpg

dY79h7p.jpg

Looks like pretty clear cut lifting and driving, it would have looked far more spectacular if McKinnon hadn't gotten a hand down to try and stop the impact

Sorry images are huge
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
31,972
Team A is beating Team B in the NRL Grand Final. Score is 24-22. There is 2 minutes left on the clock.
Team B makes a break from deep in their own half, winger streams down the sidelines but is cut down 15 metres out from the try line in a one on one tackle.

Tackler then lays on the ground for a few seconds, slowly gets to his feet because he's out of brethe and after about 6-7 seconds, finally takes his place at marker, by which time his entire team is back on side and ready to defend.

Sound good?
No thank you.


Professional foul for time wasting and 10 in the bin. Pretty simple.

Much like a multitude of areas in our game the ref would be able to make a judgement call on how much time they can practically give a player to get back to square.
 
Messages
33,280
I like the first 2 points that Danish made but point 3 I can see used with referee "interpretation" and getting very inconsistent very quickly.

We need to remove "interpretation" away from the referees mindset. The great blight on the game left to us by Harrigan has to be done with.
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
31,972
I like the first 2 points that Danish made but point 3 I can see used with referee "interpretation" and getting very inconsistent very quickly.

We need to remove "interpretation" away from the referees mindset. The great blight on the game left to us by Harrigan has to be done with.


Fair enough, and I agree that grey areas are the bane of the code.

Tbh if we just introduced reward for one on one and low tackles and instructed refs to double the time required for a holding down penalty we'd see the wrestling gone.

If you watch games from the 90s players would flop in and hold down every play the ball, but the game was still plenty fast. Why we decided we needed to speed up the game is beyond me given it was never more popular than back then
 

Billythekid

First Grade
Messages
6,627
I think these angles are not very flattering for McLean


Looks like pretty clear cut lifting and driving, it would have looked far more spectacular if McKinnon hadn't gotten a hand down to try and stop the impact

Sorry images are huge

He isn't far above horizontal there and it certainly isn't close to as bad as other lifting tackles in this match. Simple fact is if there had been no injury no one would be talking about that tackle (and no wonder as there were like 5 in that match).

The question is how does a player getting injured impact the penalty a player recieves. Past precedent suggests it gives a harsher penalty, i can certainly live with that. What's bullsh*t is people trying to make out that the tackle was anything worse than it really was. There would have been dozens of tackles as bad last week and 100s everywhere year. This one there was a freak accident that saw a player get injured.

The real question should be how we avoid it. Cracking down on the one tackle that injures a player won't do anything.
 

taxidriver

Coach
Messages
14,492
He isn't far above horizontal there and it certainly isn't close to as bad as other lifting tackles in this match. Simple fact is if there had been no injury no one would be talking about that tackle (and no wonder as there were like 5 in that match).

The question is how does a player getting injured impact the penalty a player recieves. Past precedent suggests it gives a harsher penalty, i can certainly live with that. What's bullsh*t is people trying to make out that the tackle was anything worse than it really was. There would have been dozens of tackles as bad last week and 100s everywhere year. This one there was a freak accident that saw a player get injured.

The real question should be how we avoid it. Cracking down on the one tackle that injures a player won't do anything.

i disagree, this was no freak accident. This was an accident waiting to happen.

three 100kg plus players twisting and turning (wrestling) a player who also has to hold onto the ball, what on earth did you expect?
 

Ronnie Dobbs

Coach
Messages
17,124
It was a horrible accident. Its a game that carries immense risk every time you play it. There is no intent. There is a small, small argument for it being a dangerous tackle, but not much more than those you see like this where nothing happens.

Its distressing and horrifying whats has happened to Alex McKinnon, but please, keep the witch hunts to the 16th century. If there had been intent, then you could put someone in gaol and that would be fair enough.

The only intent was to tackle him.

Thats it.

Again, good luck Alex.
 

taxidriver

Coach
Messages
14,492
Fair enough, and I agree that grey areas are the bane of the code.

Tbh if we just introduced reward for one on one and low tackles and instructed refs to double the time required for a holding down penalty we'd see the wrestling gone.

If you watch games from the 90s players would flop in and hold down every play the ball, but the game was still plenty fast. Why we decided we needed to speed up the game is beyond me given it was never more popular than back then


excellent post
 

Ronnie Dobbs

Coach
Messages
17,124
i disagree, this was no freak accident. This was an accident waiting to happen.

three 100kg plus players twisting and turning (wrestling) a player who also has to hold onto the ball, what on earth did you expect?

I expect that it will be another 40 years before a shocking incident like this occurs again.

It wasnt a spear tackle, it wasnt a grapple.

Its a shocking outcome, but that doesnt mean its anything more than an accident.
 

taxidriver

Coach
Messages
14,492
It was a horrible accident. Its a game that carries immense risk every time you play it. There is no intent. There is a small, small argument for it being a dangerous tackle, but not much more than those you see like this where nothing happens.

Its distressing and horrifying whats has happened to Alex McKinnon, but please, keep the witch hunts to the 16th century. If there had been intent, then you could put someone in gaol and that would be fair enough.

The only intent was to tackle him.

Thats it.

Again, good luck Alex.

who has suggested intent?

you realise you can go to gaol for negligence?
 

taxidriver

Coach
Messages
14,492
I expect that it will be another 40 years before a shocking incident like this occurs again.

It wasnt a spear tackle, it wasnt a grapple.

Its a shocking outcome, but that doesnt mean its anything more than an accident.


the tackle was the direct result of the ruck turning into a wrestling contest as is pretty much every tackle in the game. it's what the game has been allowed to become.

i believe this 100%

this isnt the first injury to come out of wrestling in the ruck
 

--Storm--

Juniors
Messages
1,633
It was completly caused by Alex, he tried to win a penalty and it backfired, if any Melbourne player gets suspended its a farce.
 

Maximus

Coach
Messages
12,527
If that is true than Newcastle are up shit creek - that advice is so wrong.

In this situation maybe, but that is only because he didn't go as far as he probably thought he did. There was no time or room to roll as he was too close to the ground.

Normally in a dangerous tackle they are a bit higher, and a bit further past the horizontal, so their head is going straight into the ground. In that situation, rolling is the only option if they don't want a broken neck. The tucking of the head is to make them land on the back of the neck/shoulders instead of the top of their head.

Using his arms may slow him up a bit, but his head is still hitting the ground because of both his and the tackler's momentum.
 

Maximus

Coach
Messages
12,527
It was completly caused by Alex, he tried to win a penalty and it backfired, if any Melbourne player gets suspended its a farce.

So what you are saying is that the lifting tackle played no part at all in this? If he wasn't lifted it would still have happened?
 

jamesgould

Juniors
Messages
1,466
As expected the Alex McKinnon debate has become quite intense, so I have decided to throw in my opinion as I believe this incident could see all concerned in the New South Wales Courts in the not so distant future. Nevertheless, Before going on let me firstly state that 'Bunnies' argument above has a lot of credibility.
I am not going to attest to being the world's greatest lawyer, however, and as alluded to above, it will not surprise me in the least if Alex McKinnon decides in the future to sue either (or altogether) the relevant players of the Melbourne storm, the Melbourne Storm, and NRL. I will explain.
In my honest opinion this unfortunate incident is one that has been waiting to happen! For example many of you would have now heard on TV and through various media outlets that the NRL is now going to rigidly enforce a ?concussion rule? because it has received stern legal advice that it could be potentially liable to past and present players who have sustained brain trauma as a result of unavoidable (and perhaps avoidable) collisions on the football field. In other words the NRL has received legal advice that it owes a greater ?duty of care? to the players.
Given this new position as far as the ?concussion rule? is concerned one only has to draw a simple analogy to the incident which has occurred to the poor and unfortunate Alex McKinnon. Ultimately the legality of the tackle will be a decision for other tribunals (and possibly Courts), and let me assure you the courts in this country have dealt with similar situations before and have come down with a firm hand when it was justified to do so. Maybe there are a few older members in this forum, who like me, remember the Rogers v. Bugden & Canterbury Football Club court decision back in 1986. This decision was later followed by another well-known NRL legal case of Jack v. Roberts.
For your benefit I will draw some ?Union v. League? comparisons as far as foul play is relevant; especially with respect to the rigidity of how union polices its game. The first example is the shoulder charge. In union it has been banned as far back as I can remember. At all levels of union such tackles result in ?yellow cards?, and in more serious instances a ?red cards? (which are usually followed by severe suspensions). In league it has only recently been outlawed but it generally only presently results in the player being put on report. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I have yet to see any player in the NRL ?sin binned? (the equivalent of union?s yellow card), or worse, being sent from the field! Admittedly there have been recent developments with respect to suspensions and I suspect they will continue.
The second example is the tackle above the shoulder. In union anything above the shoulder is treated in the same way as the shoulder charge as far as discipline is concerned. They actually stipulate the shoulder because it negates the, ?it bounced up and hit the head? excuse which is so often used as a defence to a ?high shot? in league. The last example I will use here is the tackle going over the horizontal, which is regrettably what happened to Alex McKinnon. From my understanding, it is outlawed in both codes however I believe it is more severely policed and punished in union. I have never seen a player stay on the field in union. No discretion applies once the tackle is over the horizontal; the player is off for either ten or for the match.
Perhaps the question to be asked is why is union so strict in regard to the examples I have provided above? The answer is obviously primarily geared toward the safety of the players. Accordingly, and on a secondary level, it satisfies an acceptable standard of a ?duty of care? which thereby negates the potential exposure to lawsuits which union's governing bodies could otherwise face. If one were to peruse the law reports on the subject of personal injury in sport they would soon find that it is very common for judges to look at and compare other similar and like sports when determining acceptable standards of a ?duty of care?. For mine I would not be surprised if a judge were to draw comparisons between union and league if the opportunity were to now arise with a high profile ?personal injury? league case. As I will suggest below, I believe one is now about to start simmering away.
I know there will be plenty of detractors out there ready to shout me down with comments like, ?it's a game of footy, not ballet?, and to be perfectly honest I would agree with such people. League is after all a contact sport and what is most loved is the ?biff?. In fact for most of us who have played the game and have sustained an injury it is akin to a badge of honour. To have copped a gash to the head which has left a scar, or in my case a broken nose (times three) have made for timeless and great ?B-S? stories down at the local club/pub, where very few now let the truth get in the way of a good story. No, I am merely coming at you from a legal perspective during a time, where from my legal experience, I am finding that most people seem to have better comprehension or understanding of their legal rights and obligations.
I am no expert in personal injury law and nor do I profess to be one, however I will state (from my limited knowledge of the area - and again I will stand corrected if anybody knows better) the following. As far as this area of law is concerned a club and/or the NRL could potentially be vicariously liable for the ?foul play? of a player(s) if it has not taken all the requisite steps deemed necessary, which are also within their organisational control, which deters and/or prevents such foul play. It doesn't necessarily just have to be about foul play, it is about the greater and general issue pertaining to a ?duty of care?. As noted above with the example of the introduction of the new ?concussion rule?, it was introduced because the NRL received legal advice that they owe this ?duty of care? to the players.
For me the Alex McKinnon incident is going to be one to watch for the future as far as a legal cases go. I will form no public opinion on the same ? I will leave that to the experts in this area of the law. Suffice to say we now have a young lad who is likely to see the premature ending of his career. The flow on from his ending will be a substantial loss of present and future income. If I were a betting man I would have one on Alex McKinnon's manager seeking legal advice on behalf of his client in the near future; if he/she is worth their salt they no doubt will!
Tuc.

Excellent post.

For years, many (myself very much included) have derided union for their soft stance on send offs and sin bins.

In hindsight they were light years ahead of league in player welfare.

Anyone who knows me will know I would never say union was ahead of league in ANYthing lightly. Absolutely hate the code with a passion.
 

Rhino_NQ

Immortal
Messages
33,050
all the best to the bloke, atleast he can still run around the yard with his kids down the track
 
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