Another pointless Rugby Thread

[Force]

Union has been professional since the 40s ,when the French paid their players under the table.As did the spaghetti rugby .
I followed union for many years, the hypocrisy that historically exists beneath that code, makes Trump seem truthful.

Wrong, its only been professional since 1996. One Country paying their players a bit of money does not make the entire game professional.

 

[taipan]

When it comes to slagging off each others game, it goes both ways but I dont expect one-eyed fans from either sport to admit that.

When a large number of ONE EYED ru administrators and journalists in this country who lass off rl, compared to the number of ONE EYED rl journalists who do the opposite, I suggest I know which side of the slagging is most buttered.
And this happens also in England and NZ.

 

[taipan]

Wrong, its only been professional since 1996. One Country paying their players a bit of money does not make the entire game professional.

Beg to differ, here's why.
And guess what ,there are/were countless of rl players at clubs who were not paid or just for petrol money, and the code was openly professional.As it has been since day one.

You're even more naive than I thought. French ru was paying players post WW2.South Africa ,Italy, and Australia mainly covertly.Why the hell was ru in Italy called spaghetti rugby, because the saying goes they were only paying in pasta.
A player in the days of
Campese was offered a big contract with the Dragons.He knocked it back.:Last was heard of securing nice unit.

And I'll never forget the comment by a NZ Prime Minister Muldoon(from memory) pre 1995."it never ceases to amaze me to see these AB players with no visible means of support ,running around in the latest cars".
You can call any sport amateur ,but when quite a few of the top players are getting under the table deals, it may not be professional per se, but it's bleeding shamateur.

 

[Force]

When a large number of ONE EYED ru administrators and journalists in this country who lass off rl, compared to the number of ONE EYED rl journalists who do the opposite, I suggest I know which side of the slagging is most buttered.
And this happens also in England and NZ.

Like I said, I dont expect one-eyed fans from either side to admit it, hence, your response..

 

[Force]

Beg to differ, here's why.
And guess what ,there are/were countless of rl players at clubs who were not paid or just for petrol money, and the code was openly professional.As it has been since day one.

You're even more naive than I thought. French ru was paying players post WW2.South Africa ,Italy, and Australia mainly covertly.Why the hell was ru in Italy called spaghetti rugby, because the saying goes they were only paying in pasta.
A player in the days of
Campese was offered a big contract with the Dragons.He knocked it back.:Last was heard of securing nice unit.

And I'll never forget the comment by a NZ Prime Minister Muldoon(from memory) pre 1995."it never ceases to amaze me to see these AB players with no visible means of support ,running around in the latest cars".
You can call any sport amateur ,but when quite a few of the top players are getting under the table deals, it may not be professional per se, but it's bleeding shamateur.

Once again, theres a difference between players from different Unions being paid and the entire game going Pro.

 

[taipan]

Like I said, I dont expect one-eyed fans from either side to admit it, hence, your response..

And correspondingly your response touche.

 

[taipan]

Once again, theres a difference between players from different Unions being paid and the entire game going Pro.

Let me spell it out.
Of course there is a difference between professional and amateur, that's a given.

The lines are blurred however when some of the major ru nations, abused the privilege.Which was my point all along.

Prior to the decision to to go openly professional in 1995/6 ,ru authorities were well, aware of the skullduggery of the French ,the Italians and even in Sth Africa.RL players in France were openly poached by ru during the amateur years. World Rugby union did nothing for 55 years.

Yet ru authorities continued to bang on about the great amateur ethos, that supposedly prevailed prior to 1996, when it clearly was being abused. Campese
even laughed about his Italian sojourn ,as did many others.

Yet it was in Italy where rl was actually growing in the mid 20th Century, where ru authorities lobbied the Govt, to deny rl access to Insurance because it was a professional sporting body.The game as a result withered.

You appear in denial shamateurism was hardly isolated in ru.That doesn't surprise me.
.

 

[Force]

Let me spell it out.
Of course there is a difference between professional and amateur, that's a given.

The lines are blurred however when some of the major ru nations, abused the privilege.Which was my point all along.

Prior to the decision to to go openly professional in 1995/6 ,ru authorities were well, aware of the skullduggery of the French ,the Italians and even in Sth Africa.RL players in France were openly poached by ru during the amateur years. World Rugby union did nothing for 55 years.

Yet ru authorities continued to bang on about the great amateur ethos, that supposedly prevailed prior to 1996, when it clearly was being abused. Campese
even laughed about his Italian sojourn ,as did many others.

Yet it was in Italy where rl was actually growing in the mid 20th Century, where ru authorities lobbied the Govt, to deny rl access to Insurance because it was a professional sporting body.The game as a result withered.

You appear in denial shamateurism was hardly isolated in ru.That doesn't surprise me.
.

"Of course there is a difference between professional and amateur, that's a given"....this is all you needed to say, fullstop.

The rest of the post....'poaching' was going both ways. League was also poaching Union players right up until Union turned pro in 96. Guys like Inga Tuigamala, John Timu, John Kirwan, Graig Innes, Mathew Ridge, Daryl Halligan, Frano Botica etc.....were all poached from Union, namely the All Blacks so the coin cant have been that good. But nowadays, poaching is usually confined to the juniors. And like the rest of the argument in this thread...its 'swings and roundabouts'....what you complain about in Union also happens in league and vice-versa.

 

[taipan]

"Of course there is a difference between professional and amateur, that's a given"....this is all you needed to say, fullstop.

The rest of the post....'poaching' was going both ways. League was also poaching Union players right up until Union turned pro in 96. Guys like Inga Tuigamala, John Timu, John Kirwan, Graig Innes, Mathew Ridge, Daryl Halligan, Frano Botica etc.....were all poached from Union, namely the All Blacks so the coin cant have been that good. But nowadays, poaching is usually confined to the juniors. And like the rest of the argument in this thread...its 'swings and roundabouts'....what you complain about in Union also happens in league and vice-versa.

Why? Because it suits your agenda?
Or do you choose to ignore the countries who flouted amateurism?Some countries were openly amateur and adhered to the rules, others did not.
You appear not to handle the fact, some of the major ru countries during the amateur years ,bent the rules.Whilst at the same time union authorities bagged professionalism.

LOL
League was fully professional, it never hid from that view.In fact union people in past history called them mercenaries not playing for love.

Junior rl backgrounds Jonah Lomu, SBW and quite a few NZ players with a junior rl background, who became All Blacks.Throw in Umaga,Collins,Nonu,Thorn ,Kaino.

"The coin can't be that good".The bulk of those players
you mentioned were either at the ends of their AB careers, or second string ABS.They got their retirement money or big bikkies in the open professional code.

A N.Z P.M made the comment, not me.

Junior rl players in Oz, ended up playing National ru,the 3 Ellas ,David Campese, Russell Fairfax ,Kurtley Beale( a Penrith junior).

My complaints don't revolve around these codes both being professional,my point is about ru pretending they were lilly white during the amateur years, whilst they bagged rl players for earning money in a pro code.You can't see the irony.You ignore history, that's fine, but you cannot change the fact nor the hypocrisy that existed.

What happens now is a different ball game
it's every player out to earn a living ,for which I fully applaud.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Theres nothing wrong with being a simple game, the fact that it is, should make it easier to attract non-followers from non-traditional footy playing Countries. We just need to make a better effort Internationally.

Also on these club games you keep posting....like I said before, the strength in Union is in the International Game, hence the quality and interest is in the tests, not so much club footy. Its vice-versa for league.

Again you miss my point. If union is coming to league to learn defensive strategies (NOT the other way around) and it is the most complex part of their game then league can't be that simple can it.

Club football is a true reflection of the sports strength not a one off international event.

 

[Force]

Why? Because it suits your agenda?
Or do you choose to ignore the countries who flouted amateurism?Some countries were openly amateur and adhered to the rules, others did not.
You appear not to handle the fact, some of the major ru countries during the amateur years ,bent the rules.Whilst at the same time union authorities bagged professionalism.

LOL
League was fully professional, it never hid from that view.In fact union people in past history called them mercenaries not playing for love.

Junior rl backgrounds Jonah Lomu, SBW and quite a few NZ players with a junior rl background, who became All Blacks.Throw in Umaga,Collins,Nonu,Thorn ,Kaino.

"The coin can't be that good".The bulk of those players
you mentioned were either at the ends of their AB careers, or second string ABS.They got their retirement money or big bikkies in the open professional code.

A N.Z P.M made the comment, not me.

Junior rl players in Oz, ended up playing National ru,the 3 Ellas ,David Campese, Russell Fairfax ,Kurtley Beale( a Penrith junior).

My complaints don't revolve around these codes both being professional,my point is about ru pretending they were lilly white during the amateur years, whilst they bagged rl players for earning money in a pro code.You can't see the irony.You ignore history, that's fine, but you cannot change the fact nor the hypocrisy that existed.

What happens now is a different ball game
it's every player out to earn a living ,for which I fully applaud.

There are 100+ Countries in the World who are full members of World Rugby....Like I said, just because a couple of those Countries had a few players getting paid, it does NOT mean the entire sport was professional. Why else do you think that many All Blacks switched to league in the 90's but very few do so now?...because back then, the money was in league, not union, not so the case now. You cant just pretend Union was professional based on what you once heard someone say. You're clutching at straws with that one.

As for the rest of your post, for every player you can name having a junior league background in NZ, you'd find tenfold more who had union backgrounds now playing league.

 

[Force]

Again you miss my point. If union is coming to league to learn defensive strategies (NOT the other way around) and it is the most complex part of their game then league can't be that simple can it.

Club football is a true reflection of the sports strength not a one off international event.

And you miss my point....League is a simpler game because it doesnt have as much rules. More rules make it harder to follow and understand, hence, why league is easier to follow.

 

[taipan]

There are 100+ Countries in the World who are full members of World Rugby....Like I said, just because a couple of those Countries had a few players getting paid, it does NOT mean the entire sport was professional. Why else do you think that many All Blacks switched to league in the 90's but very few do so now?...because back then, the money was in league, not union, not so the case now. You cant just pretend Union was professional based on what you once heard someone say. You're clutching at straws with that one.

As for the rest of your post, for every player you can name having a junior league background in NZ, you'd find tenfold more who had union backgrounds now playing league.

You completely are out of the loop.When the shamateurism was in full swing, the number of countries playing ru was much less.
And the point I was trying to make, the countries involved in the cash for play involved major ru playing countries.
"A couple": Try Sth Africa,Italy,France,Australia,NZ,Wales purportedly.

It means simply the sport's administration cast a blind eye, to shamateurism. Shamateurism a bastardisation of the word amateurism.

I spelt out why they switched ,either at the end of their careers or second string players during the so called amateur years..Plus it does not dilute the fact, that AB players apparently were doing OK with cars as an example,with as the P.M put it"no visible ,means of support".

I'm pretending zero.I'm spelling out hypocrisy laid bare in ru, whilast you are living in a bubble by playing it down.

Your last paragraph shows exactly why ,a sport going professional was the right thing to do in the end for the players.All ru did for decades was put down players who played pro rl, whilst administrators in their game made millions in International tests, little of which trickled down to ru players.

At least NRL clubs and even TV commentators have the decency to mention the fact, players with a ru background.
"Clutching at straws" LOL,you are in complete denial ,which reinforces the experience I had at a ru playing high school ,pre union going pro.Rugby union the amateur ideal ,never tarnished by filthy lucre.Try telling that to the guys receiving boot money.

 

[Te Kaha]

Junior rl backgrounds Jonah Lomu, SBW and quite a few NZ players with a junior rl background, who became All Blacks.Throw in Umaga,Collins,Nonu,Thorn ,Kaino.
.

Not that it really matters whether they did or not, but once again you are telling half truths.Collins and Nonu were not League "Juniors". The extent of their League experience was school yard "tackle" games. Neither of them played League for a school or club growing up and Collins only ever played one game of League, for the Vikings under an assumed name after he retired from the All Blacks.

 

[Force]

You completely are out of the loop.When the shamateurism was in full swing, the number of countries playing ru was much less.
And the point I was trying to make, the countries involved in the cash for play involved major ru playing countries.
"A couple": Try Sth Africa,Italy,France,Australia,NZ,Wales purportedly.

It means simply the sport's administration cast a blind eye, to shamateurism. Shamateurism a bastardisation of the word amateurism.

I spelt out why they switched ,either at the end of their careers or second string players during the so called amateur years..Plus it does not dilute the fact, that AB players apparently were doing OK with cars as an example,with as the P.M put it"no visible ,means of support".

I'm pretending zero.I'm spelling out hypocrisy laid bare in ru, whilast you are living in a bubble by playing it down.

Your last paragraph shows exactly why ,a sport going professional was the right thing to do in the end for the players.All ru did for decades was put down players who played pro rl, whilst administrators in their game made millions in International tests, little of which trickled down to ru players.

At least NRL clubs and even TV commentators have the decency to mention the fact, players with a ru background.
"Clutching at straws" LOL,you are in complete denial ,which reinforces the experience I had at a ru playing high school ,pre union going pro.Rugby union the amateur ideal ,never tarnished by filthy lucre.Try telling that to the guys receiving boot money.

Naming 6 Countries in the scheme of things isnt much different to 'a couple', the World of Union is much bigger than 6 Countries, even back in those days.

And you're wrong about those All Black players switching when they were at the ends of their careers as most of them were early to mid 20's bar the obvious (Kirwan) who was around 30. They switched at the peak of their careers, not the end.

My last paragraph was to state its pointless pointing out how many NZ Union players have league backgrounds cos NZ is a Union Country where more boys and girls play Union, not league so most will have a union background.

 

[taipan]

Not that it really matters whether they did or not, but once again you are telling half truths.Collins and Nonu were not League "Juniors". The extent of their League experience was school yard "tackle" games. Neither of them played League for a school or club growing up and Collins only ever played one game of League, for the Vikings under an assumed name after he retired from the All Blacks.

That being the case, and that is what i have been advised, FWIW so I bow to your views.,doesn't alter the fact @ players with a rl background played for the ABS and b) shamateurism was around with the major ru playing countries.

 

[taipan]

Naming 6 Countries in the scheme of things isnt much different to 'a couple', the World of Union is much bigger than 6 Countries, even back in those days.

And you're wrong about those All Black players switching when they were at the ends of their careers as most of them were early to mid 20's bar the obvious (Kirwan) who was around 30. They switched at the peak of their careers, not the end.

My last paragraph was to state its pointless pointing out how many NZ Union players have league backgrounds cos NZ is a Union Country where more boys and girls play Union, not league so most will have a union background.

Look I understand you don't want to enter the shamateur aspect of ru, because it goes against everything that was promoted over many decades.It's the major countries mentioned(regardless of 2/3 or 6) not the minor ones involved.Not many ru fans like the fact brought up.
It's got zero to do with the number of countries, it's the fact it happened in some and the head body did little to stop it.

Again you don't read what I stated ,they were in the main fringe/ 2nd string players not fun blown ABS at their peak.Thus the opportunity to earn big money was going to rugby league in Oz.I didfn;t say they were all at the end of their careers,

You brought up NZ ru players being poached by an openly professional rl.Hardly surprising.

As a thin response to my point, French ru(supposedly amateur) poached rl(a pro sport) players ,with the world ru turning a blind eye.A hell of a difference.

It's obvious a professional code is going to poach players from an"amateur" sport.What is not expected is a supposed amateur sport is able to poach players from a pro rl sport.

I'm fully aware of the fact NZ is a union country And the devotion the country has to the ABS.

 

[taipan]

Not that it really matters whether they did or not, but once again you are telling half truths.Collins and Nonu were not League "Juniors". The extent of their League experience was school yard "tackle" games. Neither of them played League for a school or club growing up and Collins only ever played one game of League, for the Vikings under an assumed name after he retired from the All Blacks.

Further research suggest otherwise.
From Jerry Collins:Hard Out by Margot Butcher 8/6/15

"I was a really skinny as a kid.I was always tough though.I was skinny but I would play up the middle in League.I always had guts ,that's why coaches liked me"



Umaga born Lower Hutt
Played for Wainuiomota Lions ,Wellington U16-17 then to Junior Kiwis in 1991.

So info I had been given, was not a half truth ,if the above is correct.

 

[Te Kaha]

Further research suggest otherwise.
From Jerry Collins:Hard Out by Margot Butcher 8/6/15

"I was a really skinny as a kid.I was always tough though.I was skinny but I would play up the middle in League.I always had guts ,that's why coaches liked me"



Umaga born Lower Hutt
Played for Wainuiomota Lions ,Wellington U16-17 then to Junior Kiwis in 1991.

So info I had been given, was not a half truth ,if the above is correct.

That article does suggest otherwise so I will cede that one. Although as he played Rugby all through his childhood and teenage years, it would make him a "junior" for both codes.
I made no mention of Umaga as its Well known he played League. You stated it was Nonu, which is not the case.

 

[taipan]

That article does suggest otherwise so I will cede that one. Although as he played Rugby all through his childhood and teenage years, it would make him a "junior" for both codes.
I made no mention of Umaga as its Well known he played League. You stated it was Nonu, which is not the case.

And I will cede Nonu ,for some reason that has been my understanding all along.