Another pointless Rugby Thread

[Te Kaha]

And I don't know why it even matters if a player played one or both codes growing up. Umaga and Collins both served and captained the ABs with distinction and nobody cared what they played growing up. And it screams of insecurity if someone tries to "score points" by using it.

 

[Whatwhere]

34k turned up to watch NZ Maori play Brazil in Brazil earlier this morning. Brazil lost as expected 35-3 which isn't a true reflection of how competitive the game was. 10k watched the USA Eagles beat Samoa for the first time 31-30. In Spain.

 

[Force]

Look I understand you don't want to enter the shamateur aspect of ru, because it goes against everything that was promoted over many decades.It's the major countries mentioned(regardless of 2/3 or 6) not the minor ones involved.Not many ru fans like the fact brought up.
It's got zero to do with the number of countries, it's the fact it happened in some and the head body did little to stop it.

Again you don't read what I stated ,they were in the main fringe/ 2nd string players not fun blown ABS at their peak.Thus the opportunity to earn big money was going to rugby league in Oz.I didfn;t say they were all at the end of their careers,

You brought up NZ ru players being poached by an openly professional rl.Hardly surprising.

As a thin response to my point, French ru(supposedly amateur) poached rl(a pro sport) players ,with the world ru turning a blind eye.A hell of a difference.

It's obvious a professional code is going to poach players from an"amateur" sport.What is not expected is a supposed amateur sport is able to poach players from a pro rl sport.

I'm fully aware of the fact NZ is a union country And the devotion the country has to the ABS.

I read what you stated...this is a copy and paste of your comment..."The bulk of those players
you mentioned were either at the ends of their AB careers, or second string ABS".....this is incorrect, the bulk of the players were at the peak of their careers or early on and they were far from 2nd stringers....the likes of Timu, Inga the winger, Craig Innes were all starters, only Kirwan was in the twilight of his career, all the rest were early to mid 20's and Ridge was considered an up and coming talent who could've had a lengthy career in Union but left early, think he was lucky to be 21.

The poaching argument was my swings and roundabouts response....nobody should be taking the moral high ground as one is as bad as each other.

 

[Force]

34k turned up to watch NZ Maori play Brazil in Brazil earlier this morning. Brazil lost as expected 35-3 which isn't a true reflection of how competitive the game was. 10k watched the USA Eagles beat Samoa for the first time 31-30. In Spain.

Yep....Brazil held their own against a Super Rugby laden Maori All Blacks team, a team that can put any of the top teams to the sword or at least run them close. As alluded to before, the power in Rugby Union is in the International game, it was pointless using club footy games played in Brazil to highlight an argument.

 

[taipan]

I read what you stated...this is a copy and paste of your comment..."The bulk of those players
you mentioned were either at the ends of their AB careers, or second string ABS".....this is incorrect, the bulk of the players were at the peak of their careers or early on and they were far from 2nd stringers....the likes of Timu, Inga the winger, Craig Innes were all starters, only Kirwan was in the twilight of his career, all the rest were early to mid 20's and Ridge was considered an up and coming talent who could've had a lengthy career in Union but left early, think he was lucky to be 21.

The poaching argument was my swings and roundabouts response....nobody should be taking the moral high ground as one is as bad as each other.

Halligan and Ridge quite clearly were not full blown peak ABS .Timu in fact had played 7 years from 1988 -1994 before switching to the Bulldogs(hardly early in his career) in 95.I know what Ridge was considered ,it was clearly spelt out when he played for Manly.
Kurt Sherlock play 3 games for NZ in 1985, classify him as fringe.

I'll make your day and cede Inga and Innes.Doesn't alter the fact they then earned a lot more playing rl because it was OPENLY PRO.I still maintain the other players status remain as stated.

Good to see you continue to ignore the shamateurism argument, because it's inarguable.It happened.
I clearly explained to you I couldn't give a stuff about poaching either way now, as both codes are professional)openly).
My point which still hasn't sunk in,French ru (supposedly amateur) poached rl players for decades, and nothing was said from the RU admin.IOW RU turned a blind eye to countries who practised under the table payments or pretended they didn't know or were plainly naive(which I doubt).
Secondly the same Italian ru (a supposedly amateur code )who somehow found Campese plenty of pasta),lobbied their Govt to prevent an actual pro code rl, not to get Govt Insurance because it was pro.

When it comes to the moral high ground ,your code are hardly the high priests, in fact leave rl for dead.Vichy,shamateurism and the involvement by the SARU head body during the apartheid years. It's all over now, but please lilly white .

 

[Whatwhere]

Yep....Brazil held their own against a Super Rugby laden Maori All Blacks team, a team that can put any of the top teams to the sword or at least run them close. As alluded to before, the power in Rugby Union is in the International game, it was pointless using club footy games played in Brazil to highlight an argument.

They'll actually have a reasonable opportunity to judge whether there's interest in the domestic game the with the launch of the Liga Sud Americana de Rugby in 2020. The planned Sth American Pro League featuring two teams from Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil and one from Paraguay and Chile.

 

[Whatwhere]

The NZ Maori game against Chile is apparently officially sold out. Significantly smaller stadium though. A touch over 14k. But still a good effort.

 

[Force]

Halligan and Ridge quite clearly were not full blown peak ABS .Timu in fact had played 7 years from 1988 -1994 before switching to the Bulldogs(hardly early in his career) in 95.I know what Ridge was considered ,it was clearly spelt out when he played for Manly.
Kurt Sherlock play 3 games for NZ in 1985, classify him as fringe.

I'll make your day and cede Inga and Innes.Doesn't alter the fact they then earned a lot more playing rl because it was OPENLY PRO.I still maintain the other players status remain as stated.

Good to see you continue to ignore the shamateurism argument, because it's inarguable.It happened.
I clearly explained to you I couldn't give a stuff about poaching either way now, as both codes are professional)openly).
My point which still hasn't sunk in,French ru (supposedly amateur) poached rl players for decades, and nothing was said from the RU admin.IOW RU turned a blind eye to countries who practised under the table payments or pretended they didn't know or were plainly naive(which I doubt).
Secondly the same Italian ru (a supposedly amateur code )who somehow found Campese plenty of pasta),lobbied their Govt to prevent an actual pro code rl, not to get Govt Insurance because it was pro.

When it comes to the moral high ground ,your code are hardly the high priests, in fact leave rl for dead.Vichy,shamateurism and the involvement by the SARU head body during the apartheid years. It's all over now, but please lilly white .

John Timu was only 26 when he switched to league, Im sure thats considered mid 20's and he was at his peak. Same for Halligan,, he was in his mid 20's too, however, I wouldn't call him All Black material, he was a good provincial player though. Kurt Sherlock is in the 'how on earth did he play for the AB's basket'.

If you go back through my posts you'll see Im not disputing shamateurism, what I am saying is it was only the few at the top.

 

[taste2taste]

As a league fan I always get jealous watching Rugby internationals, they have a great international program, hopefully in our lifetimes League can be as big, it'll take at least 30 years but if the game is run well it will get there. Alot will depend on leagues push into North America over the next decade...but thats a discussion for another thread.

I agree with others that Union might slightly exaggerate when they call it a "global" game. In the lead up to the 2019 RU World Cup have a listen to how many times they tell us its the second biggest sporting event in the world..... Really ?.... its bigger than the summer Olympics, Winter Olympics, Cricket World Cup, FIBA World Cup, Euro cup ? All those tournaments have a far larger global audience than the rugby world cup. In fact you you could pick any NBA game, it doesn't even have to be two good teams, and it has a larger TV audience than the union world cup final. But the rugby mob don't like facts getting in the way.

Union fans also love to tell you its played in over 100 countries but how many countries is it the number 1 sport ? NZ .... and if you're feeling very generous you could also say Wales ( although the answer is actually soccer ) so, thats 2 countries with a combined population smaller than western Sydney ! Aside from these 2 countries rugby is a "who cares" sport where people only get excited twice a year for internationals.

Union also love to throw mud at League for our eligibility laws although theirs arent much better. In the recent Spring tests only South Africa and Argentina fielded teams entirely made up of players who were born there. Other nations were fielding teams with between 35% to 50% foreign born players. Scotland and Italy the worst offenders with close to 50% Australia and England both about 40%...how Ben T'eo, who had never stepped foot in England until 2016 is playing for England i'll never know :/

 

[Whatwhere]

As a league fan I always get jealous watching Rugby internationals, they have a great international program, hopefully in our lifetimes League can be as big, it'll take at least 30 years but if the game is run well it will get there. Alot will depend on leagues push into North America over the next decade...but thats a discussion for another thread.

I agree with others that Union might slightly exaggerate when they call it a "global" game. In the lead up to the 2019 RU World Cup have a listen to how many times they tell us its the second biggest sporting event in the world..... Really ?.... its bigger than the summer Olympics, Winter Olympics, Cricket World Cup, FIBA World Cup, Euro cup ? All those tournaments have a far larger global audience than the rugby world cup. In fact you you could pick any NBA game, it doesn't even have to be two good teams, and it has a larger TV audience than the union world cup final. But the rugby mob don't like facts getting in the way.

Union fans also love to tell you its played in over 100 countries but how many countries is it the number 1 sport ? NZ .... and if you're feeling very generous you could also say Wales ( although the answer is actually soccer ) so, thats 2 countries with a combined population smaller than western Sydney ! Aside from these 2 countries rugby is a "who cares" sport where people only get excited twice a year for internationals.

Union also love to throw mud at League for our eligibility laws although theirs arent much better. In the recent Spring tests only South Africa and Argentina fielded teams entirely made up of players who were born there. Other nations were fielding teams with between 35% to 50% foreign born players. Scotland and Italy the worst offenders with close to 50% Australia and England both about 40%...how Ben T'eo, who had never stepped foot in England until 2016 is playing for England i'll never know :/

There really isn't anything happening in RL in Nth America. Particularly at the grassroots level, As for eligibility. Once a player commits to a nation they are bound by that decision. This issue many have with League is the ability to bounce between teams as they wish.

 

[Force]

Union also love to throw mud at League for our eligibility laws although theirs arent much better. In the recent Spring tests only South Africa and Argentina fielded teams entirely made up of players who were born there. Other nations were fielding teams with between 35% to 50% foreign born players. Scotland and Italy the worst offenders with close to 50% Australia and England both about 40%...how Ben T'eo, who had never stepped foot in England until 2016 is playing for England i'll never know :/

Beast aka Tendai Mtawarira who is a current Springbok was born in Zimbabwe, although he is injured....also, Ben Te'o has an English mother, hence his eligibility for England.

 

[Whatwhere]

Union also love to throw mud at League for our eligibility laws although theirs arent much better. In the recent Spring tests only South Africa and Argentina fielded teams entirely made up of players who were born there. Other nations were fielding teams with between 35% to 50% foreign born players. Scotland and Italy the worst offenders with close to 50% Australia and England both about 40%...how Ben T'eo, who had never stepped foot in England until 2016 is playing for England i'll never know :/

You're over inflating those figures just a tad. Scotland are the worst with 47% but Australia in only around 29%. And when you go through the 9 players born overseas. 5 of them moved to Australia as children. Two under the age of 5 and the other 3 at the ages of 12-13.

These are the actual percentages.

Scotland: 46.3%
Japan: 37.1%
Italy: 29.7%
Australia: 29.4%
England: 27.7%
Ireland: 26.1%
Wales: 24.3%
France: 12.9%
New Zealand: 12.5%
Argentina: 0%
South Africa: 0%

And in that there are a number of foreign born players who have been living in those respective countries since children and in the case of France in French territories.

 

[Whatwhere]

Beast aka Tendai Mtawarira who is a current Springbok was born in Zimbabwe, although he is injured....also, Ben Te'o has an English mother, hence his eligibility for England.

Mtawariria has been a SA citizen since 09.

 

[Force]

Mtawariria has been a SA citizen since 09.

Yes but born in Zimbabwe. Argentina is really the only Nation in World Rugby to be all born players.

On a side note: Fiji just beat France for the first time ever with a majority home born players, good on them. Their league team can reach the same heights if given more opportunities.

 

[Whatwhere]

Yes but born in Zimbabwe. Argentina is really the only Nation in World Rugby to be all born players.

On a side note: Fiji just beat France for the first time ever with a majority home born players, good on them. Their league team can reach the same heights if given more opportunities.

Fiji are a team that takes a few games to really begin to hit their stride. Scotland got them at exactly the right time. They'd only been together for a week. If they were able to assemble more regularly they'd be seriously dangerous.

 

[Springs09]

Yes but born in Zimbabwe. Argentina is really the only Nation in World Rugby to be all born players.

On a side note: Fiji just beat France for the first time ever with a majority home born players, good on them. Their league team can reach the same heights if given more opportunities.

Their league team beat NZ last year and made the semi-finals of the last 3 World Cups. Is that not the same 'heights'?

 

[Force]

Their league team beat NZ last year and made the semi-finals of the last 3 World Cups. Is that not the same 'heights'?

Meh...the kiwis were shitbreak last year, coached by a shitbreak coach so they were vulnerable, however, Fiji's victory over the Kiwi's was a dominant one whereas Tonga's victory they didnt look as dominant. Yes they have made the semi's in the last 3 World Cups but thats more due to the quality of the teams in International league and the games being rather amateur.

 

[Springs09]

Meh...the kiwis were shitbreak last year, coached by a shitbreak coach so they were vulnerable, however, Fiji's victory over the Kiwi's was a dominant one whereas Tonga's victory they didnt look as dominant. Yes they have made the semi's in the last 3 World Cups but thats more due to the quality of the teams in International league and the games being rather amateur.

Oh okay but Fiji union beating a French team that this year reached the lowest ranking in their history is reaching 'heights' that the league team hasn't?

 

[Whatwhere]

Oh okay but Fiji union beating a French team that this year reached the lowest ranking in their history is reaching 'heights' that the league team hasn't?

Well, the vast majority of the Fijian side that beat the French were born and developed in Fiji while all but a handful of the Fijian squad from last year's RLWC were actually born and raised in Australia.

 

[taste2taste]

Beast aka Tendai Mtawarira who is a current Springbok was born in Zimbabwe, although he is injured....also, Ben Te'o has an English mother, hence his eligibility for England.

Ben Te'o was eligible for New Zealand, Samoa, Ireland, England and Australia. Bit of a joke right ?

Eligibility is currently a hot topic for the Ra Ra's. Reading the BBC comments section for the Aus V Eng game and it is full of English slagging Wales and Scotland for taking their discards and everyone throwing mud at England and Aus for having a large number of PI players.

One of Unions eligibility flaws is that they lock you in for life. There are countless players like Eto Nabuli, he was born and grew up in Fiji, played 1 game for the Wallabies, they dont pick him anymore, and so is lost to international rugby despite the fact Fiji would love to have him in their squad. I know the Ra Ra's are very proud of the 1 country law but it gives the islands no chance of seriously competing because they'll always loose thier best players to NZ or Australia.