ARLC to meet expansion bidders.

[The Great Dane]

How exactly am I cherry picking ??? You quote me saying . And there's a chart above showing that there are other clubs also.

Then you have to resort to misquoting me. What is your problem? Did you think just run out of arguments ? Just make something up because you had nothing else to say?


I just showed you a graph on how much teams like the Suns cost. And then you come up with this little gem

You aren't cherry picking their numbers, you are cherry picking them!

You pick them for particular condemnation out of half a dozen potential example, angry about the extra money that is spent on them while brushing over the others.

Not once have you suggested that it's bad that the other clubs get money, nor have you explained why it's ok that they get extra money but it's terrible when the 'expansion clubs' get there's.
Why aren't you furious that e.g. St. Kilda gets more than the base amount, why isn't that a waste of money that the NRL couldn't possibly afford if they were in the AFL's shoes?

Frankly, you are intentionally trying to paint GWS and the Suns in a worse light than the other AFL clubs, and you are doing it because it suits your argument.

It's the exact same thing that you do with NRL clubs, you whinge about how much expansion will cost (for some reason assuming that it'll cost the same, or similar, to what expansion costs the AFL, when it won't/shouldn't even come close to costing what it costs the AFL), but you ignore the hundreds of millions the other clubs cost the NRL each year. It's a massive double standard.

" But again, we have no reason to believe that expansion clubs will cost the NRL anymore than any of the other clubs in the league, so your whole argument is based on a false premise."

Don't you read the paper? Or listen to what goes on in the outside world?

As far as I know there's no suggestion that expansion clubs will get anything more from the NRL than the same yearly grant of $13mil that all other clubs get.
If they are getting more, then either the NRL has chosen to give them more for whatever reason (which in the case of Brisbane or Perth, is unnecessary IMO), or the NRL has f**ked it up, either way that extra money wouldn't be on the club it'd be on the NRL.

The AFL are playing the long game, I do agree there. But your the one that's trying to compare Apples to Oranges. The NRL aren't the AFL. They haven't been building up a bank for just 8 years.

And when will there be enough money in the bank?

I think there'll never be enough money in the bank, because you don't actually want expansion.

I love how you totally ignored the point I was making though.

 

[The Great Dane]

That's absolutely false - apart from teams I mentioned all clubs started small with many competing rivals. United & City first played prior to both adopting Manchester moniker.

Of course they started small, everything has too start small before they can grow big. But starting small doesn't make you a suburban club, and you are trying to move the goal posts.

BTW, United started out as Newton Heath LYR Football Club. The LYR stands for Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway, as they were started as the team for the Carriage and Wagon department of the LYR that was based in Newton Heath.

In other words they were a company club, not a suburban club.

Fremantle most resembles Redcliffe being geographical break & focused on one particular region. Funny you call Redcliffe new manly while it has more in common with Fremantle. Bombers similar to Clippers & Jets covering same area as existing team. Both teams pale to rivals.

Fremantle more or less represents the whole southern half of Perth, not just one suburb, they also weren't a pre-existing suburban club like Redcliffe.

An NRL equivalent to the Dockers would be if a new club was set up in Brisbane that represents the city south of the river, which is actually a brilliant idea for the new Brisbane club.

There is no way in hell that warriors existence add quarter of value to broadcast deal. Warriors add nothing to FTA in australia - there absence would make no difference to value. Timeslots important to fox but still without you can get around that - not like warriors draw large home crowds.
All Sydney teams draw bigger ratings in Sydney & probably attract my foxtel subscribers overall. This large audience allows big broadcast deal. Less Sydney teams would hurt ratings as NRL relies on Sydney & Brisbane. Melbourne doesn't watch NRL like Sydney doesn't watch afl.

I never said that the Warriors add a quarter of the value to the Australian broadcast deal lol, no club individually adds that much to the Australian broadcast deal.

I said that the NZ broadcast deal would probably be worth less than a quarter of what it's worth now without the Warriors, and that is one of the reasons that makes them extremely valuable to the league.

Dolphins represent bigger population & different demographic. Less competition with room to grow. If NRL wants to increase revenue there should be at least 3 brissy teams. If goal is dots on map then add perth, Adelaide, Christchurch wherever, but this would bring nothing but cost of funding.

You know what has a bigger population than Redcliffe; the whole city of Brisbane.

Why the f**k would you want a tiny suburban club in Redcliffe when you could have a huge metropolitan club that represents over a million people. It's literally choosing to stunt your own potential, it's f**king insanity.

And three clubs in Brisbane is just asking to over saturate the market.

Could Brisbane support it, probably. Does it need three teams though, no. So why do it when you don't need it?!

At that point you are just splitting the fan-base three ways instead of two, and making three smaller clubs instead of two big ones, which, again, would be choosing to stunt your own potential, which is f**king insanity.

 

[Perth Red]

Wrong broncos do much higher rating in Brisbane than all other teams.

how much? Not saying they don’t but when ever someone says this they can’t actually produce the figures to show how many more watch a Friday fta game featuring the broncos v’s one that doesn’t. Is it 20k or 200k? Then we have to ask are all those people currently boosting the broncos games figures going to watch a different Brisbane team when broncos aren’t on? Do the titans games rate higher in brisbane?

 

[Perth Red]

Ok, then look at the storm. and how they went for the first dozen or so years. The networks wouldn't show them till after midnight - that's gives an idea of what they thought of them. And just having to show them will cost the networks money.

The NRL needs to have plenty of cash behind them before they can start putting teams in AFL territories, funding them tune of what the Suns, GWS are getting, and The Storm Was.

The Networks have shown little or no interest in a Perth team. So how can you be so certain?

They wouldn’t show the game let alone the Storm. That’s more to do with the way Ch9 treat the game rather than anything to do with the interest in the Storm. 500k in Melbourne tune in for the Storm GF’s would suggest there is a level of interest in watching RL on tv in Melbourne.
Even at the most funded time Storm were only getting the grant ($7mill) plus $4.6million, well below what the afl are investing in their expansion teams. Expansion for nrl will cost around $30mill (if Brisbane are the safe bet everyone seems to think). We should be able to cover that at least with the sale of the ninth game. Like I said afl expanded when they were earning a lot less than the nrl is currently.

 

[Perth Red]

Of course they started small, everything has too start small before they can grow big. But starting small doesn't make you a suburban club, and you are trying to move the goal posts.

BTW, United started out as Newton Heath LYR Football Club. The LYR stands for Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway, as they were started as the team for the Carriage and Wagon department of the LYR that was based in Newton Heath.

In other words they were a company club, not a suburban club.



Fremantle more or less represents the whole southern half of Perth, not just one suburb, they also weren't a pre-existing suburban club like Redcliffe.

An NRL equivalent to the Dockers would be if a new club was set up in Brisbane that represents the city south of the river, which is actually a brilliant idea for the new Brisbane club.


I never said that the Warriors add a quarter of the value to the Australian broadcast deal lol, no club individually adds that much to the Australian broadcast deal.

I said that the NZ broadcast deal would probably be worth less than a quarter of what it's worth now without the Warriors, and that is one of the reasons that makes them extremely valuable to the league.


You know what has a bigger population than Redcliffe; the whole city of Brisbane.

Why the f**k would you want a tiny suburban club in Redcliffe when you could have a huge metropolitan club that represents over a million people. It's literally choosing to stunt your own potential, it's f**king insanity.

And three clubs in Brisbane is just asking to over saturate the market.

Could Brisbane support it, probably. Does it need three teams though, no. So why do it when you don't need it?!

At that point you are just splitting the fan-base three ways instead of two, and making three smaller clubs instead of two big ones, which, again, would be choosing to stunt your own potential, which is f**king insanity.

other smart thi g Dockers did was appeal to a different demographic. Eagles were seena s the rich western suburbs/northern beaches club, Dockers went for the blue collar worker. So they went for a major population (south of river = around 1million people) and a different demographic to the existing club.
Doesn’t hurt that if you want to follow a afl club in perth you can’t be a ticketed eagles member as they are sold out for the next seven years at least so Dockers is only option lol.

 

[tri_colours]

You aren't cherry picking their numbers, you are cherry picking them!

You pick them for particular condemnation out of half a dozen potential example, angry about the extra money that is spent on them while brushing over the others.

Not once have you suggested that it's bad that the other clubs get money, nor have you explained why it's ok that they get extra money but it's terrible when the 'expansion clubs' get there's.
Why aren't you furious that e.g. St. Kilda gets more than the base amount, why isn't that a waste of money that the NRL couldn't possibly afford if they were in the AFL's shoes?

Frankly, you are intentionally trying to paint GWS and the Suns in a worse light than the other AFL clubs, and you are doing it because it suits your argument.

It's the exact same thing that you do with NRL clubs, you whinge about how much expansion will cost (for some reason assuming that it'll cost the same, or similar, to what expansion costs the AFL, when it won't/shouldn't even come close to costing what it costs the AFL), but you ignore the hundreds of millions the other clubs cost the NRL each year. It's a massive double standard.



As far as I know there's no suggestion that expansion clubs will get anything more from the NRL than the same yearly grant of $13mil that all other clubs get.
If they are getting more, then either the NRL has chosen to give them more for whatever reason (which in the case of Brisbane or Perth, is unnecessary IMO), or the NRL has f**ked it up, either way that extra money wouldn't be on the club it'd be on the NRL.



And when will there be enough money in the bank?

I think there'll never be enough money in the bank, because you don't actually want expansion.

I love how you totally ignored the point I was making though.

I Was talking about the expansion teams WHY do you think I mentioned the Suns and GWS? Do you even know what cherry picking means? because It doesn't appear so.


NRL clubs get $13m . not $27m

They were used as examples of expansion in non heart cities because that what they are!!!

 

[Perth Red]

With a $13mil grant, a $15.7million spending cap, 2 millionaire backers, a decent active fanbase and a keen state Govt I’m not sure why you think a perth nrl club will need anything like the central funding those afl clubs get?

 

[The Great Dane]

I Was talking about the expansion teams WHY do you think I mentioned the Suns and GWS? Do you even know what cherry picking means? because It doesn't appear so.

Either it's bad that a club gets extra money from the AFL, or it's not, you can't have it both ways.

So if you are going to get angry about extra money being spent on GWS and the Suns, then you should be equally angry about the extra money spent on "heartland" clubs, if not you are holding a double standard and I don't here you decrying the extra money that e.g. North Melbourne's getting.

And as you yourself allude to, you are cherry picking the expansion teams to try and make an argument, you are picking GWS and the Suns out and saying look how much expansion cost, and ignoring the other clubs and the money they get because the implications of them getting extra money doesn't suit your argument.

NRL clubs get $13m . not $37m

They were used as examples of expansion in non heart cities because that what they are!!!

And as far as we know the expansion clubs in the NRL will only get $13mil each in annual grants as well, so what is your problem?

 

[The Great Dane]

With a $13mil grant, a $15.7million spending cap, 2 millionaire backers, a decent active fanbase and a keen state Govt I’m not sure why you think a perth nrl club will need anything like the central funding those afl clubs get?

He doesn't actually think that NRL expansion will cost anywhere near what GWS and the Suns have cost the AFL, he is just trying to fear monger because, for whatever reasons, he doesn't want expansion to happen.

 

[tri_colours]

You aren't cherry picking their numbers, you are cherry picking them!

You pick them for particular condemnation out of half a dozen potential example, angry about the extra money that is spent on them while brushing over the others.



Not once have you suggested that it's bad that the other clubs get money, nor have you explained why it's ok that they get extra money but it's terrible when the 'expansion clubs' get there's.
Why aren't you furious that e.g. St. Kilda gets more than the base amount, why isn't that a waste of money that the NRL couldn't possibly afford if they were in the AFL's shoes?

Frankly, you are intentionally trying to paint GWS and the Suns in a worse light than the other AFL clubs, and you are doing it because it suits your argument.

It's the exact same thing that you do with NRL clubs, you whinge about how much expansion will cost (for some reason assuming that it'll cost the same, or similar, to what expansion costs the AFL, when it won't/shouldn't even come close to costing what it costs the AFL), but you ignore the hundreds of millions the other clubs cost the NRL each year. It's a massive double standard.



As far as I know there's no suggestion that expansion clubs will get anything more from the NRL than the same yearly grant of $13mil that all other clubs get.
If they are getting more, then either the NRL has chosen to give them more for whatever reason (which in the case of Brisbane or Perth, is unnecessary IMO), or the NRL has f**ked it up, either way that extra money wouldn't be on the club it'd be on the NRL.



And when will there be enough money in the bank?

I think there'll never be enough money in the bank, because you don't actually want expansion.

I love how you totally ignored the point I was making though.

Stop waffling on and get with the program.

I've Always fully supported a 2nd Brisbane team.
And I would like to see another Perth team in the competition, but its a matter of money. And if we cant afford it at the moment , then we cant afford it.

And as I said previously , Some AFL clubs do get extra money. But no others get close to $27m




Perth Red,
That $7m a year figure they were costing was almost 15 years later. So that's over $100m , lucky they were owned by News LTD's. Has Perth got a backer like that behind them PR?.

 

[The Great Dane]

Stop waffling on and get with the program.

I've Always fully supported a 2nd Brisbane team.
And I would like to see another Perth team in the competition, but its a matter of money. And if we cant afford it at the moment , then we cant afford it.

Every time expansion is brought up, under any circumstances, you find a reason, any reason no matter how nonsensical, to oppose it.

Mate, for whatever reasons you are threatened expansion, and that is fine, but stop trying to fool yourself and others by pretending that you aren't.

By the way, the NRL is the richest that it's ever been. If you don't think that it can afford expansion now then you'll never be satisfied that it's capable of supporting it.

And as I said previously , Some AFL clubs do get extra money. But no others get close to $27m

The principle is that clubs costing the league anything is bad, so why does it matter that they are getting more?

Besides one could easily argue the fact that those teams from the heartlands are getting money at all is way worse than the expansion clubs getting money.
At least the expansion clubs have the excuse that they aren't established businesses yet and that they have to build a support base, the older clubs on the other hand have been around for up to a hundred years, if they can't support themselves by now they are never going to be able too.

 

[tri_colours]

Every time expansion is brought up, under any circumstances, you find a reason, any reason no matter how nonsensical, to oppose it.

Mate, for whatever reasons you are threatened expansion, and that is fine, but stop trying to fool yourself and others by pretending that you aren't.

By the way, the NRL is the richest that it's ever been. If you don't think that it can afford expansion now then you'll never be satisfied that it's capable of supporting it.

The principle is that clubs costing the league anything is bad, so why does it matter that they are getting more?

Besides one could easily argue the fact that those teams from the heartlands are getting money at all is way worse than the expansion clubs getting money.
At least the expansion clubs have the excuse that they aren't established businesses yet and that they have to build a support base, the older clubs on the other hand have been around for up to a hundred years, if they can't support themselves by now they are never going to be able too.

Try looking at some of the other threads.

 

[Perth Red]

Perth Red,
That $7m a year figure they were costing was almost 15 years later. So that's over $100m , lucky they were owned by News LTD's. Has Perth got a backer like that behind them PR?.

2 multi millionaires lining up, with the club grant a football cap the days of clubs needing $30million revenue should be over.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-premiership/nrl-2020-perth-western-australia-nrl-bid-expansion-peter-cumins-nrl-nines/news-story/ef3088c155675b10ac14d85638ff5564

[URL]https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/western-bears-could-be-latest-bidder-for-a-license-in-an-expanded-nrl-20180222-h0wi7h.html[/URL]

 

[tri_colours]

2 multi millionaires lining up, with the club grant a football cap the days of clubs needing $30million revenue should be over.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nr...s/news-story/ef3088c155675b10ac14d85638ff5564

[URL]https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/western-bears-could-be-latest-bidder-for-a-license-in-an-expanded-nrl-20180222-h0wi7h.html[/URL]

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nr...s/news-story/ef3088c155675b10ac14d85638ff5564
[URL='https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-premiership/nrl-2020-perth-western-australia-nrl-bid-expansion-peter-cumins-nrl-nines/news-story/ef3088c155675b10ac14d85638ff5564']
I would say the cost of running a club is more expensive.

Any rate Its the NRL you need to convince not me.
[/URL]

 

[MrE_Assassin]

https://www.nrl.com/news/2020/03/05/immortal-blessing-why-beetson-backed-western-corridor-nrl-bid/

Immortal blessing: Why Beetson backed Western Corridor NRL bid
Author
Joel Gould NRL.com Reporter
Timestamp
Thu 5 Mar 2020, 09:01 AM

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The Western Corridor NRL bid is determined to bring rugby league Immortal Arthur Beetson's vision to fruition.

In the final years of his life, Beetson threw his support behind the bid and wrote the foreword to the bid document that was presented to former NRL CEO David Smith.

On Monday, NRL CEO Todd Greenberg said Brisbane was in "the box seat" to get a new team should the game expand in 2023.


Western Corridor NRL bid chairman Steve Johnson worked with Beetson in the late 2000s on establishing a bid – founded in the fast-growing Ipswich, Logan and Toowoomba regions – that would stand the test of time.

In the foreword Beetson, who was also aware of the significant playing numbers in the Western Corridor bid's catchment, said "the bid's vision and passion for our game and our kids is something I share".

"All too often I see boys taken from their home and parents care and uprooted to another city where the game becomes their parents and the focus of their lives," wrote Beetson, who died in 2011.

"Things other than talent decide if the boy will make it in the game and dreams lived or crushed.

"The Western Corridor bid will provide kids, in particular from rural areas like my home town of Roma, the chance to chase their dreams without having to leave home as boys."

Arthur Beetson represented his country in 28 Tests. NRL Photos
Johnson said Beetson was "a visionary" who had learned plenty from his own experience at the Roosters, where he often put up players from Queensland like Justin Hodges in his own home.

"He said at the time that he did the best he could in what he understood to be a flawed system," Johnson told NRL.com.

"He came to the vision that there needed to be another club in Queensland because Queensland was under-represented and to stop the kids having to move south.

"As part of our bid we were going to run an Indigenous academy and run that under Arthur's banner to create a pathway for Indigenous kids based on his knowledge of his people, which we will still do if our bid is successful and involve another Indigenous visionary in Tony Currie."


The Western Corridor bid draws on the playing numbers from Toowoomba, Ipswich and Logan.

"We were flagged to start in 2015 and the numbers for our bid have only gotten better since then," Johnson said.

"Back in 2016, Brisbane had 11,355 registered players and the Western Corridor 15,733 and the game's planning is working on Brisbane having 13,054 registered players and the Western Corridor 19,075 by 2026.

"Redcliffe had only 2840 registered players and was forecasted to have 3452 by 2026. The forecasted Western Corridor growth in registered players was 3342 so our projected growth is almost the same as the total number of players at Redcliffe.

"Participants gives you two things, obviously playing strength being one.

"If you have 19,000 people playing in your patch exponentially you have 10 times that number who are aligned to those players. So that is 190,000 people to be your fans, buy your merchandise and come to your games.

Former Titans assistant coach Terry Matterson could be in the coaching mix. Scott Davis/NRL Photos
"It is the biggest numbers in rugby league. Ipswich itself is the megastar of growth in rugby league in Australia.

"The other advantage of having rusted-on supporters is that like Newcastle you then get fans that stick with you through thick and thin."

The side would play games out of Suncorp Stadium and initially use North Ipswich Reserve as its training base.

"The Ipswich City Council has commissioned KPMG to do a study into the cost of building a stadium at North Ipswich Reserve that mirrors Redcliffe's and I have been part of the planning committee for that," Johnson said.

"They have asked what we need for the NRL side and they are taking that into account. If the 2032 Brisbane Olympics bid is successful [possibly as soon as 2021] they will play games out of North Ipswich Reserve and the Federal Government will commit funds."

The Brisbane Lions use a site in Ipswich as a training base that had been put aside for the Western Corridor NRL side when expansion was touted in 2015.

"We could have a conversation with sharing that facility in Springfield when there is more certainty around expansion,” Johnson said.

Johnson, who believes any successful bid in the greater Brisbane area would attract the necessary corporate support, said their bid was keen to talk to Wayne Bennett about his coaching plans beyond 2021.


He said Kevin Walters, Terry Matterson and Ben and Shane Walker would also be in the coaching conversation.

It is the ethos of the Western Corridor bid that most appealed to Beetson, as he revealed with some of the closing words of his foreword.

"With the game becoming more of a business and players 'stock in trade', it more than ever needs to keep some traditional values and the Western Corridor model will go a long way to keeping a balance between healthy business and healthy life," he wrote.

 

[flippikat]

If a 2nd Brisbane team HAS to be geographically based (and my preference is for it not to be geographical), then Ipswich-Logan or "Western Corridor" or whatever you call it seems better than Redcliffe.

You can set the rivalry up against the Broncos in terms of "North of the river vs South of the river". In that respect, the new team automatically has a FAR better chance of transcending just one suburb than the Dolphins.

Especially if they choose a neutral name that's not the Jets.

 

[Perth Red]

Looks like he’s been reigned in since his initial comments lol

NB: There's a lot of issues going on in the game, there always is in rugby league. Can I start with expansion? Are we looking at a 17th Brisbane team or are we looking at two extra teams in the new broadcast cycle?

PV: We're doing an analysis. The total focus for us at the Commission is to ensure we get the same broadcast revenue we've had in the past. We want more, it's like getting a house, If you get your foundation wrong, the whole house collapses. If we don't have the money, we can't do the programs - we can't pay the players, we can't pay the referees.

NB: You've talked about getting more?

PV: We need to maximise our revenue, and the majority of our revenue is broadcast. So we need to look at the foot print and make sure that whatever we do is going to maximise the return for the broadcasters, which in turn maximises the return for rugby league.

NB: So that means a 17th team is a possibility in 2023?

PV: It's a possibility. We are analysing all the scenarios at the moment. And the staff have done a very good job in analysing all markets. And we're very strong in the Queensland market, we dominate the Queensland market, so it does make sense to have more presence in in the Queensland market, but in saying all that no final decision has been made, that will happen in the next few months.

It will be done with management information, not just gut feeling. It has to have a business case, it has to produce return on capital and also has to give us more eyeballs for broadcast. And all those things will be factored in the next few months, and a decision will be made.

https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/commis...es/a3d535ca-9287-4cfd-8979-468f27b0e1cf#close

 

[mongoose]

If a 2nd Brisbane team HAS to be geographically based (and my preference is for it not to be geographical), then Ipswich-Logan or "Western Corridor" or whatever you call it seems better than Redcliffe.

You can set the rivalry up against the Broncos in terms of "North of the river vs South of the river". In that respect, the new team automatically has a FAR better chance of transcending just one suburb than the Dolphins.

Especially if they choose a neutral name that's not the Jets.

What would this western corridor team be called? and before any suggestions are made I just want to mention that Logan is not west and it's 40km from Ipswich central! But i think it's a better idea than the old holiday village of Redcliffe.

I guess one drawback is that the Broncos have always had close ties with the region the western corridor team will represent. However the Broncos have 4 or 5 feeder clubs in Brisbane and can make do with Norths, Redcliffe and Wynnum. I think Easts are with the Storm now? Obviously western corridor would get the Jets and Logan Magpies.

 

[flippikat]

What would this western corridor team be called? and before any suggestions are made I just want to mention that Logan is not west and it's 40km from Ipswich central! But i think it's a better idea than the old holiday village of Redcliffe.

I guess one drawback is that the Broncos have always had close ties with the region the western corridor team will represent. However the Broncos have 4 or 5 feeder clubs in Brisbane and can make do with Norths, Redcliffe and Wynnum. I think Easts are with the Storm now? Obviously western corridor would get the Jets and Logan Magpies.

Good question. I think the best way is to just throw it open to fan suggestions and have the bid filter through the submissions.. so long as they don't pick "Footy McFooty-Face"

As far as feeder clubs go, true that a north/south split between Brisbane 2 and the Broncos will work best if there's a realignment of those arrangements.. but if it's done sensibly, it adds into the equal division of the city.

 

[jim_57]

What would this western corridor team be called? and before any suggestions are made I just want to mention that Logan is not west and it's 40km from Ipswich central! But i think it's a better idea than the old holiday village of Redcliffe.

I guess one drawback is that the Broncos have always had close ties with the region the western corridor team will represent. However the Broncos have 4 or 5 feeder clubs in Brisbane and can make do with Norths, Redcliffe and Wynnum. I think Easts are with the Storm now? Obviously western corridor would get the Jets and Logan Magpies.

I'd like to see 'Hornets' (The fighter jet).

The location name is the one that is hardest to pick. Western Corridor, West Brisbane, South/West Brisbane, Ipswich, Western, South East QLD etc all have flaws. None obviously better spring to mind.