Armchair Coach/Selector time

[Bazal]

No it’s not. See my post re. our tackle efficiency which takes this into account. We are poor no matter how much we try and sugar coat it.

Highest missed tackles, 2nd highest points against and 3rd worst tackle efficiency.

How many of those ineffective tackles lead to a problem? How many were the third man falling off an effective two man tackle?

Ineffective tackles are an individual stat, like missed tackles. Unlike missed tackles they are only relevant if you know the context.

Once again, you're not really understanding the point. Our attitude and our application is not an issue in defence. Our issue is that we are making way more tackles than other teams, and when you are forced to make more tackles, you are likely to miss more tackles. It's really very simple, and what's more it's a compounding issue. The more tackles you make, the more you miss, but also the greater your missed percentage as time goes on because you get tired.

Our missed tackle count is high because our possession count is low. Our possession in six matches currently reads;

53%
39%
44%
45%
52%
44%

In the two games we won possession, we still had long periods without the ball (Rd 1 second half we spent 30 mins in our own end and 11 minutes defending our line, Rd 5 first half we had 45% of the ball)

That is the main overriding reason for your missed tackle count. We are simply being forced to make a lot more tackles. Now, there are many reasons for that and some that we can control; (errors being a key one, penalties to an extent)...but our actual defensive application is ok.

 

[Happy MEel]

Foxsports stats also indicates we have the highest number of line breaks conceded (with the Titans still to
Play this weekend who are second)

 

[Noise]

Foxsports stats also indicates we have the highest number of line breaks conceded (with the Titans still to
Play this weekend who are second)

But if you ignore the fact that we have the 2nd worst points against, the worst total missed tackles, the worst tackle efficiency rate and the highest number of line breaks conceded...we are applying ourselves well

 

[Happy MEel]

How many of those ineffective tackles lead to a problem? How many were the third man falling off an effective two man tackle?

Ineffective tackles are an individual stat, like missed tackles. Unlike missed tackles they are only relevant if you know the context.

Once again, you're not really understanding the point. Our attitude and our application is not an issue in defence. Our issue is that we are making way more tackles than other teams, and when you are forced to make more tackles, you are likely to miss more tackles. It's really very simple, and what's more it's a compounding issue. The more tackles you make, the more you miss, but also the greater your missed percentage as time goes on because you get tired.

Our missed tackle count is high because our possession count is low. Our possession in six matches currently reads;

53%
39%
44%
45%
52%
44%

In the two games we won possession, we still had long periods without the ball (Rd 1 second half we spent 30 mins in our own end and 11 minutes defending our line, Rd 5 first half we had 45% of the ball)

That is the main overriding reason for your missed tackle count. We are simply being forced to make a lot more tackles. Now, there are many reasons for that and some that we can control; (errors being a key one, penalties to an extent)...but our actual defensive application is ok.

I think our attitude to defence isn’t as bad as it could be considering our position on the ladder, but our execution and decision making is terrible. You can’t just gloss over the stats because it doesn’t suit your argument and assert that an even share of possession would fix our problems, based on no evidence. One might even call that disingenuous.

 

[strider]

And also ignore the fact probably a 3rd of all the shit occurred in one horrific game ..... and yes it still counts and it was a terrible game ...and yes it still counts and was a terrible game .... and yes it still counts and was a terrible game

 

[Happy MEel]

But if you ignore the fact that we have the 2nd worst points against, the worst total missed tackles, the worst tackle efficiency rate and the highest number of line breaks conceded...we are applying ourselves well

 

[Bazal]

That's about 10% of attempted tackles being missed tackles. That doesn't seem very good to me. I imagine our ineffective tackles are pretty bad too.

251/11
337/8
247/12
280/15
315/30
224/16

1654/72

That's the Dragons, they're very good obviously...leading the comp and with loads of possession. They're operating at 95%, which is excellent.

266/12
302/23
249/32
281/20
313/30
392/31

1803/148

That's the pre season favourites for the premiership, operating at 92% with a win under their belt. I prefer their stats over, say Newcastle (who are near identical to us) or the Dogs (who are about half a percent off us) because it demonstrates very clearly the cumulative relationship between possession and missed tackles (where Newcastle and the Dogs are missing at a fairly steady rate).

Round one they had a good win, good possession stats, made relatively few tackles and missed very few.

This week they were soundly beaten, both on the scoreboard and in possession, and missed a bunch of tackles.

They also demonstrate, though, that we are travelling ok all things considered when it comes to defence. Rd 3 and 5 they won possession quite comfortably, and defended at about the same rate we are with stuff all possession.

 

[strider]

On the plus side, we apparently have the 4th best number of "decoy runs" in the comp .... yes thats right .... wtf? ...

Maybe cos no f**ker wants the ball and just runs aimlessly

 

[Bazal]

I think our attitude to defence isn’t as bad as it could be considering our position on the ladder, but our execution and decision making is terrible. You can’t just gloss over the stats because it doesn’t suit your argument and assert that an even share of possession would fix our problems, based on no evidence. One might even call that disingenuous.

I haven't actually asserted that at all. I've said that the possession rate is the major factor in our missed tackle count.

We would miss fewer tackles with more ball. You can't argue that.

I do agree that there have been cases of individuals making poor decisions, I gave it to Kaysa just last night for his. That's the game, though. Players will make poor decisions and players under fatigue are more likely to do so. But you seem to think that our missed tackle count is just because we're poor defensively, rather than an obvious symptom of the hole we get ourselves into with our errors and our penalties.

I'm much more worried about the fact we've conceded 65 penalties than I am about missing the number of tackles we have, given the number of tackles we've been asked to make.

Ultimately, defence is far from being the key issue with our season.

 

[Bazal]

On the plus side, we apparently have the 4th best number of "decoy runs" in the comp .... yes thats right .... wtf? ...

Maybe cos no f**ker wants the ball and just runs aimlessly

I wonder, does jogging near the halfback while he crabs across field trying to find some merkin willing to push up count as a decoy?

Because I reckon they've missed a few hundred

 

[Noise]

On the plus side, we apparently have the 4th best number of "decoy runs" in the comp .... yes thats right .... wtf? ...

Maybe cos no f**ker wants the ball and just runs aimlessly

This must be what we are doing at training.

 

[Noise]

I haven't actually asserted that at all. I've said that the possession rate is the major factor in our missed tackle count.

We would miss fewer tackles with more ball. You can't argue that.

I do agree that there have been cases of individuals making poor decisions, I gave it to Kaysa just last night for his. That's the game, though. Players will make poor decisions and players under fatigue are more likely to do so. But you seem to think that our missed tackle count is just because we're poor defensively, rather than an obvious symptom of the hole we get ourselves into with our errors and our penalties.

I'm much more worried about the fact we've conceded 65 penalties than I am about missing the number of tackles we have, given the number of tackles we've been asked to make.

Ultimately, defence is far from being the key issue with our season.

The penalties we are conceding are a result of our poor defence. We can’t control the speed of the ruck (or the game) so try to cheat by taking off early and getting pinged for offside or laying all over the tackled player without making a dominant tackle and getting pinged for holding down

 

[Bazal]

The penalties we are conceding are a result of our poor defence. We can’t control the speed of the ruck (or the game) so try to cheat by taking off early and getting pinged for offside or laying all over the tackled player without making a dominant tackle and getting pinged for holding down

Lol. Give a dog a bone...

 

[Happy MEel]

251/11
337/8
247/12
280/15
315/30
224/16

1654/72

That's the Dragons, they're very good obviously...leading the comp and with loads of possession. They're operating at 95%, which is excellent.

266/12
302/23
249/32
281/20
313/30
392/31

1803/148

That's the pre season favourites for the premiership, operating at 92% with a win under their belt. I prefer their stats over, say Newcastle (who are near identical to us) or the Dogs (who are about half a percent off us) because it demonstrates very clearly the cumulative relationship between possession and missed tackles (where Newcastle and the Dogs are missing at a fairly steady rate).

Round one they had a good win, good possession stats, made relatively few tackles and missed very few.

This week they were soundly beaten, both on the scoreboard and in possession, and missed a bunch of tackles.

They also demonstrate, though, that we are travelling ok all things considered when it comes to defence. Rd 3 and 5 they won possession quite comfortably, and defended at about the same rate we are with stuff all possession.

How is comparing us to a team that is 1-5 a good indication we’re travelling ok. I don’t care how good they were rated preseason. We were rated a top 4 team FFS.

The example you prefer also discredits your earlier assertion

The more tackles you make, the more you miss, but also the greater your missed percentage as time goes on because you get tired.

Our missed tackle count is high because our possession count is low

 

[Noise]

Lol. Give a dog a bone...

Huh?

Why do you think we are getting pinged so often in defence for being offside and holding down? It’s because we keep losing the ruck....Or is it a ref conspiracy

 

[Happy MEel]

I haven't actually asserted that at all. I've said that the possession rate is the major factor in our missed tackle count.

We would miss fewer tackles with more ball. You can't argue that.

I do agree that there have been cases of individuals making poor decisions, I gave it to Kaysa just last night for his. That's the game, though. Players will make poor decisions and players under fatigue are more likely to do so. But you seem to think that our missed tackle count is just because we're poor defensively, rather than an obvious symptom of the hole we get ourselves into with our errors and our penalties.

I'm much more worried about the fact we've conceded 65 penalties than I am about missing the number of tackles we have, given the number of tackles we've been asked to make.

Ultimately, defence is far from being the key issue with our season.

I won’t argue it but I’ll point you to your own stats...

251/11
337/8
247/12
280/15
315/30
224/16

1654/72

That's the Dragons, they're very good obviously...leading the comp and with loads of possession. They're operating at 95%, which is excellent.

266/12
302/23
249/32
281/20
313/30
392/31

1803/148

[/QUOTE]

It isn’t always a direct correlation.

 

[Bazal]

How is comparing us to a team that is 1-5 a good indication we’re travelling ok. I don’t care how good they were rated preseason. We were rated a top 4 team FFS.

So you're just picking and choosing the data you want to matter? You're better than that.

The example you prefer also discredits your earlier assertion

No it doesn't. The Dragons have, with the exception of one game, missed more tackles the more that they have been asked to make. As have the Cowboys. It's right there ffs. The Dragons had one great defensive game (Rd 2) but as they make more, they miss more. The Cowboys had one shocker where they missed a buttload, but the trend is very clear....the only time they've missed under 20 tackles is when they've made the least for their season.

The Dragons have had the one stormer in defence, but they miss fairly consistently in the mid teens when they make in the mid 200-odd tackles. They also missed by far their most tackles in the only other game they've been asked to make 300 or more.

If you define data by its' outliers, then you're bound to be wrong.

 

[Bazal]

Huh?

Why do you think we are getting pinged so often in defence for being offside and holding down? It’s because we keep losing the ruck....Or is it a ref conspiracy

So the three times we've given away a penalty in the first set or so, we were losing the ruck already?

We've pushed the envelope since BA took over. It's what made us relatively successful last season, we played on the edge and pushed sides with our intensity. We were often just offside last year too, but got away with it. This season we're being called on it. It's just a fact of the game. Interpretations and attitudes change, the challenge is for us to adapt to that.

At the moment we're killing ourselves with the penalties we give away, which leads to more work in D, which leads to fatigue, which leads to more errors and penalties and lapses in defence.

 

[lingard]

I have a suspicion M Jennings was told to not let Bevan take the kick returns. Limit the opportunity for ragdolling him.

So why would the coach put him on the wing, then?

 

[Chipmunk]

I have a suspicion M Jennings was told to not let Bevan take the kick returns. Limit the opportunity for ragdolling him.

That's a bit unfair on Jennings. You can't carry players like French in the NRL any more.