Bret Stewart >Josh Dugan & Hayne

[zombie jesus]

Stewart 2008 stats (24 games)

293 runs
9.95 metres per run
97 kick returns
12.17 metres per kick return
4.04 returns per game
91 Tackle Breaks
16 Line Breaks
14 Line Break Assists
22 Tries
14 Try Assists
+ he was becoming a viable kicking option back then too, on par with Matt Ballin at least.

Just throwing it out there. Hope he gets back to that, would be moot to argue his worth until he's back on the field.

Hayne > Dugan with Stewart TBA at the moment.

 

[typicalfan]

Plenty of players play well in their rookie year (Hayne got Dally M Rookie of the Year in his). That's why it's called 'second season syndrome' rather than 'rookie season syndrome'.

Runs (non kick return)
Dugan
2010: 245 runs at 8.5 metres/run
2009: 208/8.4

Hayne
2010: 271/8.7
2009: 304/9.4

Kick Returns
Dugan
2010: 12.1 metres/return
2009: 12.1

Hayne
2010: 11.7 metres/return
2009: 12.8

All quite interesting, with the key stat being that while Hayne's metres per run in general play are still higher than Dugan's this year, his metres per kick return are much less - evidence teams are deliberately kicking (and chasing) to nullify his kick return. It's clearly harder to limit his running in attack because they can't dictate where and how he receives the ball.

Here's more evidence:

Kick Returns
Dugan
2010: 5.6 returns/game
2009: 6.8

Hayne
2010: 5.1 returns/game
2009: 6.1

Teams have learnt not to kick to Dugan so much but they still kick to him more than they kick to Hayne.



Tackle breaks are a bit of a nothing stat in that they bear little relation to linebreaks, and can indicate a number of different things - a player that runs sideways and even backwards a lot, a player that fights in the tackle instead of going for a quick play-the-ball, or a player whose halves manage to get him into a lot of one-on-one contests against isolated defenders.

Here's the tackle break champions of the past 5 years:

Dugan (2010)
Tackle breaks: 192
Linebreaks: 20

Hayne (2009)
Tackle breaks: 184
Linebreaks: 32

Folau (2008)
Tackle breaks: 146
Linebreaks: 17

Bowen (2007)
Tackle breaks: 220
Linebreaks: 32

Hodges (2006)
Tackle breaks: 167
Linebreaks: 23



Agreed. However the stats are all we have to back up our arguments on the internet so they have their place.



Of course.

Though you have to admit Campese is the main man at Canberra. At Parramatta it's Jarryd Hayne except for the handful of games where Mateo feels like turning up.

They kick to Hayne less than they kick to Dugan. A few reasons for this. One is that Hayne possibly stands out more and try and kick away more. Might be a small reason, hardly the main one though IMO.

Another is that teams may feel the Parramatta wingers are a weakness in returning the ball, I could understand teams targeting Inu considering the times he offloads the ball when he is being driven back. Daniel Vidot the young Raiders winger on the other hand is a strong kick returner and Joel Monaghan is safe under the high ball. I think reason 2 has more weight then reason 1.

The other reason is that teams are just more successful at kicking the ball away from Hayne than Dugan, tbh it is one of Dugan's strengths and the area I think Hayne needs to improve most. But still I would put my money on reason 2 if I had to choose.

Tackle breaks are like an offload without the risk of turning the ball over, it is the most effective way to create 2nd phase play. I have found that the special players don't die with the ball and are not easily rounded up. The fact that both players can do it so frequently is a testament to their abilities. I am not sure how Dugan makes so many but he is so dangerous in the attacking area. I remember the Raiders having Milne at the back a few times this year and could barely score a point, throw Dugan in and they win 9 of 10 or something like that.

Hayne and Dugan are a lot more similar than you think and those stats back that up. Hayne a bit more solidly built means he could handle the rigours of footy earlier than Dugan who still is yet to fill out. Not sure if Hayne's best position will remain fullback though. He is one of those guys who is so naturally talented he could play anywhere and still come up with big plays but Dugan is an out and out fullback.

Even Graeme Langlands moved to accomodate Ken Thornett in his time. Fittler, Daley, Johns, Meninga etc Even when I said Dugan might be a blue in 2011 I never said it would be at the expense of Hayne. He is too good to leave out.

 

[RufusRex]

thats ok .... Darius Boyd is better than all of them

 

[typicalfan]

What a season Boyd has had. Incredible his turn around.

Not sure if he was best on the park but certainly up there. What about that pass to set up Nightingale. Class.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Face it the moment you are facing the reality of getting bit on the backside you go back to your book of stats.

The represent what happens on the field. They are more reliable than just your opinion.

I was there, I watched the game live.

And I had a better view watching on TV in Afghanistan.

A team of 100 million dollars over the cap doesn't stop you from putting your best foot forward. He didn't.

They managed to stop all the other superstars leading up to that match. Why should Hayne be any different?

In any game, in any set of 6, at any specific play-the-ball, you can choose who to focus on defensively. You do that by 'spotting' - watching the guy and calling his every movement off the ball. This keeps the defenders switched on and allows them to counter any mismatches the oppositon attacker might be trying to set up.

Sometimes it comes up trumps, especially when you have so few defensive weaknesses like the 2006-2010 Melbourne Storm team.

And lol at single handedly. Moimoi was a standout for the Eels in the decider, throw Kingston as well.

Don't forget Mateo and Grothe. Looks like Melbourne were so focused on Hayne the other guys got under Melbourne's guard.

And Hayne still made the second most metres of the 34 players that day (after Mateo) despite essentially playing as a decoy.

I mean, you can try to make out that Hayne's rubbish under pressure but he's already proven himself both in Origin and finals football.

If he's criticised for not getting man-of-the-match every week it shows how good he is, and how much haters like yourself are hoping for him to fail.

Hayne didn't bring the game he did in the weeks prior. This was evident very early on.

So what do you think happened? He was shut down by a 6 million dolar team who actively focused on him to the exclusion of other players or he crumbled under pressure even though he's already proven his ability to star in high-pressure finals and Origin football?

And Slater was the man of the match and series in origin.

Slater's also been dropped as QLD fullback twice in the middle of a series (after game 1 2008 and game 2 2005). All players have good days and bad days.

Understand the concept of being the best player on the entire park.

You're talking like he's the only bloke ever to win man-of-the-match. It's good for Slater that he redeemed himself.

He got the medal in front of all the other very worthy QLD players

He was also awarded the Clive Churchill Medal ahead of more deserving Melbourne players in Cronk and Blair.

you don't do that unless you are among the best if not the best player in the game. He won the QLD team the match in a game where NSW were in control of.

NSW were in control? They were in front on the scoreboard for about 3 minutes out of the 80.

The Blues were never in control, though Slater did play very well.

Hayne's performance in SOO 3 was widely regarded as poor and no stat changes that. Didn't stand out one bit in either origin match from fullback.

Did anybody from the Blues stand out this series? Their forwards were dominated, their halves had no time to create and their outside backs were starved of quality ball.

Slater's shown how fragile he is when his team is dominated (at Origin level), and it's a saving grace that he looks good when his team plays well. But Hayne's worst isn't as bad as Slater's worst, while his best is much better as shown last year.

Slater >>>> Hayne. As fullbacks the gap between Hayne and Dugan is smaller than the gap between Slater and Hayne.

No. Out of the three, Hayne's the only one who's ever dominated games. Not just won man-of-the-match when his team shat all over the opposition; dominated, as in he looked like the only player on the field.

And don't forget there was a lot of support for Dugan over Hayne as the fullback option in origin.

From Raiders fans and Hayne haters.

The fact that Hayne can play on the wing (played his best in origin there) and Gidley off the bench (same goes) can and will eventually work in Dugan's favour. Dugan's inexperience lost him the battle in the end but if 2011 starts the same as 2010 then I would expect to see Dugan debut next year.

The Blues fullback is Hayne's to lose and unlike Slater he's never played a bad Origin. The worst Hayne ever plays is quiet, which usually means only 200m running and maybe a linebreak or try assist.

 

[boxhead]

Went to a live game featuring Slater and Hayne. Two actually in the last 12 months. The 2009 Grand Final and the 3rd Origin. It is safe to say Slater had his measure comfortably on both occasions even if he did make a few mistakes in the Grand Final. Hayne was noticably absent and ineffective. Noticable enough to grab the attention of a few Parra notables I was with.

Hayne absent and ineffecitve? I agree with that in regards to the grand final, but watching it from home, I could definitely tell how Hayne was playing in Origin 3. Jarryd was playing brilliantly, and was terrorising QLD. I'm sorry, but I really disagree with you here. The only NSW players that were better than Hayne on that night were Greg Bird and Paul Gallen, Hayne was absolutely destructive. His kick-returns were monstrous, and his general play was great. He showed in that game that he will be long-term NSW fullback of the future, unless he moves to the halves.

And Slater was the man of the match and series in origin. Understand the concept of being the best player on the entire park. He got the medal in front of all the other very worthy QLD players, you don't do that unless you are among the best if not the best player in the game. He won the QLD team the match in a game where NSW were in control of.

The thing is mate, Slater was not the best player on the park in Origin 3. If the selectors for man of the match could actually pick a player from the losing team (which they never will), it would have gone to Greg Bird, easily. Slater won QLD the match, but he was not the best player on the park. Mate he wasn't even the best player of the series, winning the medal doesn't change the obvious that Sam Thaiday, Johnathon Thurston and Darren Lockyer were all way better than him over the three Origins. This is an argument that the person who gets the medal is automatically the best, it is wrong; why? Look at Slater getting the Clive Churchill Medal last year, everyone agrees he did not deserve it and it should have gone to one of the Storm forwards. It's the exact same principle, as everyone I've talked to or heard also believes that it Slater deserved the MotM award as he was the best for QLD, but definitely not the Player of the Series award.

Hayne's performance in SOO 3 was widely regarded as poor and no stat changes that. Didn't stand out one bit in either origin match from fullback.

Again, I hugely disagree with you here. What are you talking about? Everyone I ever talked to, and also hearing off numerous experts, agreed that Hayne was one of the best on the field for Origin 3. I can't believe you cannot see what he did in his kick-returns and also in the tries he set up. Also, the entire NSW team in Origin 2 was crap, using that as a tool for your argument is wrong.

Slater >>>> Hayne. As fullbacks the gap between Hayne and Dugan is smaller than the gap between Slater and Hayne.

And don't forget there was a lot of support for Dugan over Hayne as the fullback option in origin. The fact that Hayne can play on the wing (played his best in origin there) and Gidley off the bench (same goes) can and will eventually work in Dugan's favour. Dugan's inexperience lost him the battle in the end but if 2011 starts the same as 2010 then I would expect to see Dugan debut next year.

For the rest of your post, I'm not sure. I doubt they will move Hayne to the wings when they have Brett Morris, Akuila Uate, Michael Gordon, etc all in arrears.
The problem with moving Hayne to the wing is that unless you let him play up the middle, all he will do is score tries and set them up along the wings plus make breaks. Yes that sounds good, but if you don't get him involved in the middle, there is virtually no point to playing him in Origin at all.....they will keep Hayne in the team, no question, but if they put him on the wing they would realize that if he only plays on the wing, they could bring in someone better at the 'winger' job; aka Akuila Uate.

It creates a big problem for NSW, but the thing is, it is good for NSW that they have such good talent waiting for the opportunity; look at QLD's halfback depth as an example, if Thurston is injured, they have Cronk, if Cronk is injured, they have Prince. It's insane that the three best halfbacks in the game aren't even all utilised in the QLD team, they are that good a team. It's the same with the NSW fullback spot; at the moment, Hayne is the preferred option with Dugan, Coote, Stewart, etc plus some old guys is great for NSW; most of them young.

What I think you will find mate, is that unless Dugan plays like superman during 2011, they will not move Hayne.....the selectors said they are going to stick with this young team and the spine (switch Barrett for Carney obviously), which obviously includes Hayne; they will stick with the spine that almost won Origin 3, and they will stick with the player that has been one of their best for a few years. If he under-performs at fullback, then yes he will go to the wings, but unfortunately, whether you want Dugan to be NSW fullback or not, the selectors have pretty much already stated they will stick with Hayne there.

I think you will find that the selectors will ease Dugan into it, yes he is older than when Hayne made his Origin debut, but throwing a fullback who is unproven at State level into the deep end against a team like QLD when they already have a great fullback there who knows Origin is asking for trouble. The selectors will see the logical choice, and whether we like it or not, that's what it will be.

 

[typicalfan]

Hayne played a bad origin in game 2 and 3 this year, I am not denying the talent of Hayne but Slater still has the runs on the board in big games. Billy Slater man of the series isn't just a good day.

Players get dropped and bad things happen. Billy Slater was put back to the bench in game 2 2008 and in game 3 scored the match winner. Slater was really only hitting his peak by then.

Yeah Hayne played outstandingly prior to that but was still flat in the Grand Final. Those other players had good games, doesn't mean they got under their guard, they are allowed to play well if they put the effort in. Hayne needed to put in a big one for Parra to get over the line. Putting in your best possible effort in a Grand Final is kind of important. He may never get an opportunity again. I hope he does because I am sure he can do much better than last year. But until then I am not going to say definitively that he is best in the game.

Hayne has been a revelation at origin (on the wing) Slater has been a revelation at all levels at fullback. Slater has been among the best of all the players in the 5 series win especially the last 7 matches. I don't recall anything even close to a quiet game from him in that time.

Hayne having a quiet game is a bad game. Sure Slater gets more help around him but that means nothing unless he goes out there and performs and usually he performs to a level above his team mates, something that has been the case in Melbourne for 3 years and he has been as good as anyone at origin, it isn't simply a case of "any fullback could look good" because it is just as easy for an ordinary player to stick out in a great team as vica versa. If Hayne is to be better fullback than Slater he has to outperform him at origin and club level. It helps Slater that he plays with the same guys at most levels but that is what it is. Without that Slater wouldn't be a shadow of who he is.

Might sound like a hard marker but the expectation is there. We aren't comparing Hayne to a mug.

Slater is the only fullback that has dominated a match at every level of the game in his chosen position. Brett Stewart didn't get a real opportunity while Hayne is still mastering his craft.

In fact many of the selectors present at the City v Country this year started to consider the possibility of including Dugan. I remember Fulton comparing him to Langlands.

Again the fact that Hayne can slot anywhere in the backline and is probably already the best winger in blues origin history (big call but close) will mean the team can accomodate Dugan (or Stewart) without kicking Hayne out.

 

[boxhead]

Hayne played a bad origin in game 2 and 3 this year, I am not denying the talent of Hayne but Slater still has the runs on the board in big games. Billy Slater man of the series isn't just a good day.

Players get dropped and bad things happen. Billy Slater was put back to the bench in game 2 2008 and in game 3 scored the match winner. Slater was really only hitting his peak by then.

Yeah Hayne played outstandingly prior to that but was still flat in the Grand Final. Those other players had good games, doesn't mean they got under their guard, they are allowed to play well if they put the effort in. Hayne needed to put in a big one for Parra to get over the line. Putting in your best possible effort in a Grand Final is kind of important. He may never get an opportunity again. I hope he does because I am sure he can do much better than last year. But until then I am not going to say definitively that he is best in the game.

Hayne has been a revelation at origin (on the wing) Slater has been a revelation at all levels at fullback. Slater has been among the best of all the players in the 5 series win especially the last 7 matches. I don't recall anything even close to a quiet game from him in that time.

Hayne having a quiet game is a bad game. Sure Slater gets more help around him but that means nothing unless he goes out there and performs and usually he performs to a level above his team mates, something that has been the case in Melbourne for 3 years and he has been as good as anyone at origin, it isn't simply a case of "any fullback could look good" because it is just as easy for an ordinary player to stick out in a great team as vica versa. If Hayne is to be better fullback than Slater he has to outperform him at origin and club level. It helps Slater that he plays with the same guys at most levels but that is what it is. Without that Slater wouldn't be a shadow of who he is.

Might sound like a hard marker but the expectation is there. We aren't comparing Hayne to a mug.

Slater is the only fullback that has dominated a match at every level of the game in his chosen position. Brett Stewart didn't get a real opportunity while Hayne is still mastering his craft.

In fact many of the selectors present at the City v Country this year started to consider the possibility of including Dugan. I remember Fulton comparing him to Langlands.

Again the fact that Hayne can slot anywhere in the backline and is probably already the best winger in blues origin history (big call but close) will mean the team can accomodate Dugan (or Stewart) without kicking Hayne out.

I see your points, and I agree with a lot of them

One thing though, is that Hayne having a 'quiet' game, is still far better than almost any other player in the NRL. Look at the Roosters game, it was his worst game of the year and yet he was still extremely dangerous. Hayne being 'quiet' is a bad game by his standards, but to anyone else it would be like 'wow, wish I could play that way....'

As for best winger ever for NSW, yes I can agree with that.....even from an extremely young age, he has been devastating on the wings for NSW.....I remember the game where he threw the 'miracle' ball to Darren Lockyer for two things; firstly, he scored one of the greatest tries ever in Origin history, and secondly, he made one of the biggest mistakes ever in Origin history.
The thing is, I can say that if Hayne can do that stuff from the wing, then yes you can stick him anywhere you please he's also a proven centre, and one day (perhaps soon) it seems likely he will play in the halves......it's amazing really, he has so much value for Australia and NSW.

 

[typicalfan]

Hayne absent and ineffecitve? I agree with that in regards to the grand final, but watching it from home, I could definitely tell how Hayne was playing in Origin 3. Jarryd was playing brilliantly, and was terrorising QLD. I'm sorry, but I really disagree with you here. The only NSW players that were better than Hayne on that night were Greg Bird and Paul Gallen, Hayne was absolutely destructive. His kick-returns were monstrous, and his general play was great. He showed in that game that he will be long-term NSW fullback of the future, unless he moves to the halves.



For the rest of your post, I'm not sure. I doubt they will move Hayne to the wings when they have Brett Morris, Akuila Uate, Michael Gordon, etc all in arrears.
The problem with moving Hayne to the wing is that unless you let him play up the middle, all he will do is score tries and set them up along the wings plus make breaks. Yes that sounds good, but if you don't get him involved in the middle, there is virtually no point to playing him in Origin at all.....they will keep Hayne in the team, no question, but if they put him on the wing they would realize that if he only plays on the wing, they could bring in someone better at the 'winger' job; aka Akuila Uate.

It creates a big problem for NSW, but the thing is, it is good for NSW that they have such good talent waiting for the opportunity; look at QLD's halfback depth as an example, if Thurston is injured, they have Cronk, if Cronk is injured, they have Prince. It's insane that the three best halfbacks in the game aren't even all utilised in the QLD team, they are that good a team. It's the same with the NSW fullback spot; at the moment, Hayne is the preferred option with Dugan, Coote, Stewart, etc plus some old guys is great for NSW; most of them young.

What I think you will find mate, is that unless Dugan plays like superman during 2011, they will not move Hayne.....the selectors said they are going to stick with this young team and the spine (switch Barrett for Carney obviously), which obviously includes Hayne; they will stick with the spine that almost won Origin 3, and they will stick with the player that has been one of their best for a few years. If he under-performs at fullback, then yes he will go to the wings, but unfortunately, whether you want Dugan to be NSW fullback or not, the selectors have pretty much already stated they will stick with Hayne there.

I think you will find that the selectors will ease Dugan into it, yes he is older than when Hayne made his Origin debut, but throwing a fullback who is unproven at State level into the deep end against a team like QLD when they already have a great fullback there who knows Origin is asking for trouble. The selectors will see the logical choice, and whether we like it or not, that's what it will be.

I still think Hayne lacked confidence in a few occasions in origin 3. A few times he could have backed himself but didn't. He was much better than game 2. Hayne's kick returns come naturally even in his quieter games he still gets good carries. Probably caught Slater on a night where he played the best match of his career.

And with the rep thing I remember Hayne apart from a few patches was "considered" a bit quiet early this year while Coote and Dugan were on fire. If Hayne is in form at the start of 2011 then he won't lose his jersey no matter how well his rivals play. Personally I think Hayne will be a mainstay in the origin team wherever he is picked.

I think Hayne was robbed of the chance to get first crack at the 1 over Gidley in game 1. Should keep his jersey but he will be under pressure IMO if form is low. When I say his jersey I mean fullback.

 

[typicalfan]

If you think my argument is based on who I want in the side I thought Hayne should get first crack this year and best case scenario is Hayne in full flight next year. But he has some players on his heels which is good really, hope it keeps him on his toes. When he is playing well (doesn't have to be magical) at origin I think then Slater v Hayne will be more even and Hayne will have a mortgage on the blues jersey.

I am from the school of minimal changes in origin is best especially in good performances. Game 3 despite the result was a good performance in general and the combinations should be allowed to grow.

I think though eventually they are going to be forced to find a spot for more than one of them. QLD played with Hunt and Slater many times. Hunt was the QLD favourite but Slater was too good to leave out.

 

[boxhead]

I still think Hayne lacked confidence in a few occasions in origin 3. A few times he could have backed himself but didn't. He was much better than game 2. Hayne's kick returns come naturally even in his quieter games he still gets good carries. Probably caught Slater on a night where he played the best match of his career.

And with the rep thing I remember Hayne apart from a few patches was "considered" a bit quiet early this year while Coote and Dugan were on fire. If Hayne is in form at the start of 2011 then he won't lose his jersey no matter how well his rivals play. Personally I think Hayne will be a mainstay in the origin team wherever he is picked.

I think Hayne was robbed of the chance to get first crack at the 1 over Gidley in game 1. Should keep his jersey but he will be under pressure IMO if form is low. When I say his jersey I mean fullback.

I agree with all that definitely, I'm in the same thought-train as you I think we all agree the selectors had no clue for Game 1, they picked Lyon who was in-form at centre as five-eighth, they picked Kimmorely at halfback (he didn't let us down, and I loved to see him play one last time, but in all fairness it was Pearce's time), plus Gidley at 1 and Hayne on the wing....

If you think my argument is based on who I want in the side I thought Hayne should get first crack this year and best case scenario is Hayne in full flight next year. But he has some players on his heels which is good really, hope it keeps him on his toes.

I am from the school of minimal changes in origin is best especially in good performances. Game 3 despite the result was a good performance in general and the combinations should be allowed to grow.

I think though eventually they are going to be forced to find a spot for more than one of them. QLD played with Hunt and Slater many times. Hunt was the QLD favourite but Slater was too good to leave out.

Don't worry I'm not saying that at all I'm just saying that, whether people want Dugan or Hayne at fullback sadly may not end up changing the team as it is.
I agree with all that too.

 

[typicalfan]

Hayne has a tough road to number 1. Dally M means he has the class. But he has to somehow get his club firing which performed well below expectation and he is in an origin side picked like a raffle. The Dally M award is a funny one. Some players get it as they begin to take off, I would argue that although someone like Todd Carney won this year, I don't think Carney has reached his potential and I think he will have better years down the track that won't necessarily win him another Dally M. Media speculation plays a part in judging players, Carney is the new kid on the block but without any Origin or Test experience it would be hard for anyone to say he is better than say Benji Marshall. Jarryd Hayne has felt more pressure this year because teams are more aware, if he pushes through the other side he will be a better player for it whether or not he wins the award again.

Other players get it after taking off and doing it after many seasons a la Matt Orford.



You didn't mention Idris on the bench or Tahu either both ridiculous really, Tahu has been disappointing although can be good and Idris didn't work.

Slater was an error prone eccentric player who could cost you a game or win you a game without much grey area in between who was lucky to be surrounded by guys like Thurston, Smith, Lockyer, Inglis, Folau, Price, Civoniceva, Webcke etc

And as it stands now I would rate him (at this point in time not overall) ahead of all of them mainly based on achievements at rep level in the last 2 years although it took him many years to establish himself.

2011 will be big because as PE says they will all be on a level playing field. But I think his performances speak for themselves.

Hayne performs at fullback at rep level in 2011 and I think Slater will have some very stiff competition like Jack/Belcher.

 

[Hench]

Was Stewart even that quick to begin with ?

 

[zombie jesus]

Yes he was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4h-K4cn2uI

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Hayne has been a revelation at origin (on the wing) Slater has been a revelation at all levels at fullback. Slater has been among the best of all the players in the 5 series win especially the last 7 matches. I don't recall anything even close to a quiet game from him in that time.

Slater has never played well when his team hasn't stood up - all his success comes off the back of his teammates. He has never played well without them dominating.

2008 Origin game 1, 2008 World Cup Final, 2008 Grand Final, 2009 vs the Titans and Bulldogs, this year against Brisbane, Parra and Manly - when Slater's team plays poorly, he crumbles. He's just fortunate he's been in dominant teams his whole career (Melbourne, Queensland, Australia).

Hayne is different to Slater in that he is able to stand out even when Parramatta or the Blues play poorly (which is often) - he was awesome in Parra's woeful performances last year against Manly, Souths, Penrith and Wests, games 1 and 2 of Origin, game 3 of Origin this year (he made 2 linebreaks and ran for over 200m, he also would've had a try assist if Morris had caught a pass that landed on his chest), and he single-handedly brought Parra back from 20-0 down against Manly, and was the difference between two poor teams in Parra's win against the Bulldogs.

Put Hayne in the Storm and the QLD origin team and he is already the greatest player in history. The one time the Australian team fell apart in the last decade, Silly Billy was right there self-destructing with them.

Slater's form follows his team's. Hayne's team either follows him or watches while he does it all on his own.

 

[Big Pete]

Slater has never played well when his team hasn't stood up - all his success comes off the back of his teammates. He has never played well without them dominating.

2006 Grand Final.

Game set match

 

[Poupou Escobar]

2006 Grand Final.

Game set match

You're kidding Big Pete. You're normally one of the most measured posters on here but surely you're not saying that the Storm played poorly in that game while Slater played well?

The teams finished the match with two tries apiece - the Storm were hardly dominated.

As for the 7 points that seperated the two teams, four of those were from penalty kicks conceded by William Ignatius Slater (probably not his actual full name) - one for a strip on Clive Churchill winner Berrigan, and the other for a high shot on Berrigan.

I wouldn't say Slater lost them the match but both times he conceded a penalty that put the Broncos in front with the score tied.

It's looking more and more like Slater's Clive Churchill Medal last year was awarded out of pity for being so sh*t in big matches up until then.

 

[Big Pete]

Please the Storm saved their worse for last in that performance and Slater's performance was befitting of a CC medal, to say the Storm dominated that game is a silly statement.

Those two penalties were fairly unfortunate too. Berrigan had an extremely loose carry and fell into Slater when he could've very easily been penalised for using Big Benny Hannant as an obstruction.

Not that I disagree with your point, I do tend to think Hayne plays like an individual where as Slater does tend to be something of a team player. However to state he never plays well unless his team mates step up is a bogus statement and you know it. Off the top of my head I know he played tremendously in a game against the Warriors in NZ when half his team had given up.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Please the Storm saved their worse for last in that performance and Slater's performance was befitting of a CC medal, to say the Storm dominated that game is a silly statement.

I didn't say they dominated, I said they played ok. They only lost by 7 and the teams cored 2 tries each.

Therefore you can't cite the game as an example of Slater playing well when the rest of the team played sh*t.

Slater played no better than anybody else, and actually conceded points on two occasions during the match with the scores tied.

Not that I disagree with your point, I do tend to think Hayne plays like an individual where as Slater does tend to be something of a team player.

It's not that Hayne plays like an individual (he gets loads of try assists and linebreak assists) but rather he is capable of starring even when the rest of his team lets him down.

However to state he never plays well unless his team mates step up is a bogus statement and you know it.

I was more saying that whenever his team falls apart Billy's right there collapsing with them. I guess he really is a team player although when Billy plays sh*t they single him out for awards: http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=371191

Off the top of my head I know he played tremendously in a game against the Warriors in NZ when half his team had given up.

I'm surprised they didn't give him New Zealand Player of the Year.

 

[Big Pete]

Slater has never played well when his team hasn't stood up - all his success comes off the back of his teammates. He has never played well without them dominating.

So when did the Storm dominate the 2006 Grand Final?