Bret Stewart >Josh Dugan & Hayne

[typicalfan]

Boyd's average mate, which is why he's not part of this debate.

Having to put in the big stats because the team around you is sub par doesn't mean he has had a better year.

Boyd as a pure footballer is nowhere near Hayne but I don't think Hayne could do Boyd's role as well as Boyd at the Dragons. On the flip side there would be no chance in hell that Boyd would bring up the stats Hayne does for a team that has struggled. He suits the side very well and in reality that is all you need to be a Grand Final success.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

So whatever comes out of agenda driven Phil Gould mouth is gospel?

No more agenda driven than anybody here, and with better credentials on top of that.

Well, Johns said Lockyer was the best player he has ever played against.

You got to think Johns has played against some of the best, Fitler, Daley, Langer and co.

Johns only ever played against Hayne in 2006 - Hayne's rookie season (Dally M Rookie of the Year too). The last time Johns played against him, Hayne scored 4 tries, including an 80m intercept off a Johns pass. This was the night Johns became the NRL's all-time leading pointscorer and stormed off the field after the game.

Hayne's probably just the best winger Joey's ever played against.

Oh and Ray Warren the voice of rugby league thinks Slater was the best ever fullback he has ever seen. He has no reason to be biased unlike that fatty Gould.

Come on mate - everybody knows that since sometime in the 90s, Rabs hasn't seen more than 26 blurry shapes running around the pitch.

 

[typicalfan]

Either Wendell Sailor or Matt Sing would be the most likely answer to best winger to play against Joey.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Johns played halfback and hooker, Hayne on the wing/fullback. Lets not carry this debate over to which positions are more physical even in the 90's playing in the middle of the ruck was tougher than playing on the wing or at fullback now.

I didn't say tougher, I said more physical - wing and fullback are positions where you need strength and speed because they are the areas where players are expected to beat defenders one-on-one.

This is why wingers and fullbacks tend to decline as they get older while halfbacks can stay at the top until injury ruins them somewhere in their 30s.

Carney won the Dally M didn't he? Darius Boyd was the best fullback this year wasn't he? Slater was the best rep player wasn't he? All 3 had better years than Hayne.

Why isn't Hayne on par with these guys this year?

All players have quiet years. We know Hayne had a quiet year because he wasn't as dominant as last year.

And despite having a quiet year he's still one of the few players to win matches single handedly this year. And most players would give their left net to have a season as good as Hayne's quiet year.

Hayne at his best this year was still better than every other player in the game. Only Carney and Marshall come close.

Slater is still the best fullback in the game he proved it in origin as he has proved in many times over the last 3 years, not in just a few weeks of his career.

Hayne overtook him last year. It's only incumbency keeping Slater in the Australian jersey, and only the fact that Hayne's from NSW keeping Slater in the QLD jersey.

Those guys played at a level Hayne did last year for over a decade. You realise this right? This is the reason why they are so good and considered greats.

No chance.

They played at the level Hayne's played at for the last 2-3 years for over a decade. If any of them played as well as Hayne did late last year it was a game here and there every season, not 6 weeks in a row.

This is the reason for the Hayne hype - nobody had ever seen anything like what Hayne did late last year. Not from Johns, Fittler, Lockyer or anybody else.

The only place see a player dominate like that is under 7s. It was f**king insane.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

So if Hayne wants to become the number one fullback, he better start playing to his potential week in week out.

No player plays to his potential every week - when you consider some of the dominant performances in the history of the game you know that those players didn't do that every week.

If you look at potential as the best a player can possibly play then Hayne has already done it. His top performances both this year and last year were as good as anything ever seen on a footy field.

That's it - potential fulfilled.

As for playing his best - ie. dominating - every week, no player ever dominated every week. Not Johns, not Fittler and not Lockyer.

 

[stormbati]

Don't you guys think Stewart was a little over-rated anyway? Maybe I'm forgetting how good he is but I'd take Minichiello over him.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Doesn't matter mate, he lost to two union boys. Have you ever seen Lockyer lose to union boys in a 100m dash? I don't think so. Show me evidence, you got any statistics on that?
I rest my case :lol:

There's no need to be a smartarse mate.

I already said Lockyer probably would've won if he'd raced. We all know that Lockyer's still the best player in the world because of everything he's done in the past. Isn't Ken Irvine still the fastest winger in the game?

Hayne's just lucky Old Kenny didn't run.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Don't you guys think Stewart was a little over-rated anyway? Maybe I'm forgetting how good he is but I'd take Minichiello over him.

Minichiello at his best was one of the best players in the world.

Stewart was in the Billy Slater mould - awesome speed and balance and swerve, and a great support runner. He was good enough at fullback not to be a liability in defence but his real strength was beating a defender with speed - usually in broken play in his role as a support player, but he also had a move where he got wide in the opposition 20m zone and just beat his man on the outside.

He was a great kick-chaser too.

Stewart lacked Minichiello's physical strength and ability to take bombs in traffic but he was definitely faster. And he never took no for an answer.

 

[Loudstrat]

Rp, don't accuse parra fans of turning every thread into a hayne discussion when it is the likes of yourself that feel the need to mention how good Dugan is whenever Haynes name is mentioned. That's a bit of the case of a pot calling the kettle black don't you think ?

Also, you spastic of the decade, just because I'm female doesn't void my opinion of Hayne being talented and moreso than Dugan. Honestly gtfo it. I would prefer hayne in my team AS A FULLBACK over Dugan and that's got nothing to do with the way they look. I'm sick of having this discussion with you over and over again .

Raiders Premiers is showing himself to have a long and distinguished life as a virgin and a complete nutter. Dugan :lol:

So whatever comes out of agenda driven Phil Gould mouth is gospel? :crazy:
Well, Johns said Lockyer was the best player he has ever played against.
You got to think Johns has played against some of the best, Fitler, Daley, Langer and co.

Oh and Ray Warren the voice of rugby league thinks Slater was the best ever fullback he has ever seen. He has no reason to be biased unlike that fatty Gould.

And Rabs hailed Matt Bowen as the next Clive Churchill when QLD were getting smashed by 30 in Origin too. Besides, the last fullback Rabs ever saw was Keith Barnes.

Get your hand off it son.
I hate everything to do with QLD, but let's be honest here. Lockyer is class above the rest.

You hand is on it well and truly. Have a look at Phillips in 00's GF and tell me when ever did Heather have defence like that?

Johns played halfback and hooker, Hayne on the wing/fullback. Lets not carry this debate over to which positions are more physical even in the 90's playing in the middle of the ruck was tougher than playing on the wing or at fullback now.

The only person comparing Joey to Hayne is the likes of the Hayne bashers, who are suddenly comparing him to every decent player since Frank Burge!

Carney won the Dally M didn't he? Darius Boyd was the best fullback this year wasn't he? Slater was the best rep player wasn't he? All 3 had better years than Hayne.

Why isn't Hayne on par with these guys this year?

Maybe they were with good teams and Hayne wasn't? Suddenly Thurston is crap too? How about Heather? Comparing 2 players in GF sides to a player in a busted side with no support is rediculous. And we saw Carney in similar curcumstances - and no one new who he was!

Those guys played at a level Hayne did last year for over a decade. You realise this right? This is the reason why they are so good and considered greats.

Good. In a decade, Hayne will have joined them - probably eclipsed them. Prove that he won't!

 

[Raiders_Premiers]

There really needs to be some kind of measure to stop drunken/drug f**ked posts like the ones from this Loudtwat gimp from being submitted. He doesn't even watch games

 

[CanadianEagle]

Stewart's been out for so long I can honestly not remember watching him play.

Yeah if he still has his try-scoring ability then he'll be right in contention but after 2 years off and two knee reconstructions who knows how good he is now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4h-K4cn2uI

 

[typicalfan]

I didn't say tougher, I said more physical - wing and fullback are positions where you need strength and speed because they are the areas where players are expected to beat defenders one-on-one.

This is why wingers and fullbacks tend to decline as they get older while halfbacks can stay at the top until injury ruins them somewhere in their 30s.



All players have quiet years. We know Hayne had a quiet year because he wasn't as dominant as last year.

And despite having a quiet year he's still one of the few players to win matches single handedly this year. And most players would give their left net to have a season as good as Hayne's quiet year.

Hayne at his best this year was still better than every other player in the game. Only Carney and Marshall come close.



Hayne overtook him last year. It's only incumbency keeping Slater in the Australian jersey, and only the fact that Hayne's from NSW keeping Slater in the QLD jersey.



No chance.

They played at the level Hayne's played at for the last 2-3 years for over a decade. If any of them played as well as Hayne did late last year it was a game here and there every season, not 6 weeks in a row.

This is the reason for the Hayne hype - nobody had ever seen anything like what Hayne did late last year. Not from Johns, Fittler, Lockyer or anybody else.

The only place see a player dominate like that is under 7s. It was f**king insane.

Saying you need to be more physical on the wing than in the halves is mind boggling. Much more physical interaction takes place in the middle. Halves need to be stronger physically in defence for example than either wing or fullback. That is in Rugby League 101.

Wingers like Chicka Ferguson, Wendell Sailor and Adam MacDougall. The reason winger leave the game earlier is because they are easier to replace. speed is one asset on the wing that is vital so is strength but more vital infield.

Most players don't include Billy Slater and a few others without naming names.

I say Carney at his best this year was better than Hayne at his best. Same goes for Marshall.

Consistency and abilities in big games keep Slater in the rep sides, that and he is no.1.

Andrew Johns won 3 Dally Ms, should have been 4. Most of those years he dominated with a few exceptions not just for 6 weeks, more like 15-20 weeks. Johns blew apart sides in all levels in a way Hayne hasn't dreamed of yet and Hayne would admit that.

I don't think you watch other teams close enough mate Hayne is spectacular at the Eels but I think you are a fair bit off the beaten track.

You say you knew heaps about the 90's but you can't come up with more dominant performances. Sure 6 in a row is amazing and will go down as one of the richest veins of form. Broncos in the back half of 99 were equally special, Campese in 08 was spectacular. Fittler post origin was magic.

 

[typicalfan]

The only person comparing Joey to Hayne is the likes of the Hayne bashers, who are suddenly comparing him to every decent player since Frank Burge!
Maybe they were with good teams and Hayne wasn't? Suddenly Thurston is crap too? How about Heather? Comparing 2 players in GF sides to a player in a busted side with no support is rediculous. And we saw Carney in similar curcumstances - and no one new who he was!

Good. In a decade, Hayne will have joined them - probably eclipsed them. Prove that he won't!

No PE compared him to Joey.

Carney came into a wooden spoon side and has been far and away their best. Thurston has had his moments in the sun as has Lockyer. 5 series in a row is a pretty mean feat. Who cares if no one knows who Carney was? What has that got to do with anything? That his rise to be the best player in 2010 was steep? you mean just like Jarryd.

Prove that Parramatta will win the comp this year. :lol:

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Saying you need to be more physical on the wing than in the halves is mind boggling. Much more physical interaction takes place in the middle. Halves need to be stronger physically in defence for example than either wing or fullback. That is in Rugby League 101.

I think you know exactly what I mean.

Wingers are bigger and stronger and faster than halfbacks - they use speed and strength to beat defenders. Ergo they are more physical. Halfbacks' strengths are generally their ball skills, vision and awareness - they play a less physical game.

Have a look at how many times a winger plays the ball than a halfback. Ideally your halfback doesn't get caught in possession.

No PE compared him to Joey.

Since Joey had such big wraps on him I thought the comparison was fair. Though Johns didn't play Origin until he was 21.

Carney came into a wooden spoon side and has been far and away their best. Thurston has had his moments in the sun as has Lockyer. 5 series in a row is a pretty mean feat. Who cares if no one knows who Carney was? What has that got to do with anything?

He's been awesome but he's already 24 and never played Origin. Hayne's already achieved more than Carney and he's 2 years younger.

Carney was the best player this year for sure - he made less linebreak assists than Marshall or Thurston (19 to their 23) but far more linebreaks (21 to their 10 and 9 respectively). He had more try assists than Thurston who plays in a sh*t team (17 to Thurston's 16) but less than Marshall (23). All up his linebreaks put him ahead of Marshall and Thurston (consistently the best playmakers in the comp), and his goalkicking probably gave him the edge in the Dally M voting.

He did play better than Hayne this year overall - he made a few more linebreaks than Hayne (21 to 17) and a couple more linebreak assists (19 to 17) and try assists (17 to 14). But Hayne's best performances this year were absolute solo efforts like last year.

And it's last year that shows Hayne was special. His efforts last year were better than any player has produced this year. In '09 Hayne topped the NRL in linebreaks (32 to the second-placed Tuiaki and Morris on 24) and metres gained (4429 to Perrett's 3401). Hayne ran a kilometre further than the next guy. He made 33% more linebreaks than the next best linebreaker. Carney didn't come close to this kind of dominance this year though he did set his own bar pretty high.

Just not as high as Hayne set his last year.

 

[Engine]

Brett better pray his kneee is 100%

 

[Wrong_Number]

I think you know exactly what I mean.

Wingers are bigger and stronger and faster than halfbacks - they use speed and strength to beat defenders. Ergo they are more physical. Halfbacks' strengths are generally their ball skills, vision and awareness - they play a less physical game.

Have a look at how many times a winger plays the ball than a halfback. Ideally your halfback doesn't get caught in possession.



Since Joey had such big wraps on him I thought the comparison was fair. Though Johns didn't play Origin until he was 21.



He's been awesome but he's already 24 and never played Origin. Hayne's already achieved more than Carney and he's 2 years younger.

Carney was the best player this year for sure - he made less linebreak assists than Marshall or Thurston (19 to their 23) but far more linebreaks (21 to their 10 and 9 respectively). He had more try assists than Thurston who plays in a sh*t team (17 to Thurston's 16) but less than Marshall (23). All up his linebreaks put him ahead of Marshall and Thurston (consistently the best playmakers in the comp), and his goalkicking probably gave him the edge in the Dally M voting.

He did play better than Hayne this year overall - he made a few more linebreaks than Hayne (21 to 17) and a couple more linebreak assists (19 to 17) and try assists (17 to 14). But Hayne's best performances this year were absolute solo efforts like last year.

And it's last year that shows Hayne was special. His efforts last year were better than any player has produced this year. In '09 Hayne topped the NRL in linebreaks (32 to the second-placed Tuiaki and Morris on 24) and metres gained (4429 to Perrett's 3401). Hayne ran a kilometre further than the next guy. He made 33% more linebreaks than the next best linebreaker. Carney didn't come close to this kind of dominance this year though he did set his own bar pretty high.

Just not as high as Hayne set his last year.

For someone who claims to be watch his league all his life, you have no clue at about the great game of ours at all.
You base your knowledge of the games on stats.
You repeated Hayne ran a kilometre further than the next guy a few times already :lol:
You're in love with that stat :lol:
Hayne postional play is so bad, of course he will run more than everyone else :lol:

 

[Poupou Escobar]

For someone who claims to be watch his league all his life, you have no clue at about the great game of ours at all.
You base your knowledge of the games on stats.

No, I prove my point with stats because you can't argue against them. Otherwise it's just two morons stating their opinion back and forth.

You're aware the stats represent things happening on the field? Or do you really think they mean nothing?

You repeated Hayne ran a kilometre further than the next guy a few times already :lol:
You're in love with that stat :lol:

Yeah pretty funny huh?

I repeated it because you ignored it the first time. And it's too incredible to be ignored.

One thousand metres. It normally takes a fullback about 7 or 8 games to run that far. That's nearly a third of a season.

Hayne postional play is so bad, of course he will run more than everyone else :lol:

Really? I thought it was because he made so many more linebreaks than anybody else.

Though I guess all his breaks are also from poor positional play right?

 

[Wrong_Number]

No, I prove my point with stats because you can't argue against them. Otherwise it's just two morons stating their opinion back and forth.

You're aware the stats represent things happening on the field? Or do you really think they mean nothing?



Yeah pretty funny huh?

I repeated it because you ignored it the first time. And it's too incredible to be ignored.

One thousand metres. It normally takes a fullback about 7 or 8 games to run that far. That's nearly a third of a season.



Really? I thought it was because he made so many more linebreaks than anybody else.

Though I guess all his breaks are also from poor positional play right?

I have just finished watching all the eels matches from 2009 on fast forward.
I noticed alot of his runs from the back are from poor positional play and alot of his line breaks are from where the game is already won towards the end of the match.
But you don't have stats on that do you :lol:
You don't follow rugby league, you just follow Hayne your god.

 

[Pete Cash]

There have been some outrageous claims made (ignoring loudstat who I hope is just trying to troll the traditionally crazed Raiders supporters) the ones I take issue with the most is

A) Teams aren't already targeting Josh Dugan more than any other Raider besides Campese (and even that is maybe. Dugan is far more consistent and dare I say it more skilled that Campo). PE you are huffing glue if you do not believe there has been attempts to shut down Dugan from almost day one. Coaches have eyes mate. There was a game against Newcastle in his debut year where Dugan was public enemy number 1. Sides are already kicking away from him. SUPER COACH Wayne Bennett quite clearly instructed the Dragons to avoid involving Dugan as best they can. You are absolutely talking sh*t on that one.

Do you think NRL coaches are morons mate. When they look over the Raiders side Dugan is the guy who is probably going to have at worse a good game. He is consistent as hell and has only played like two poor games in his entire career. Both of which were during the WILL HE GO TO THE ROOSTERS SAGA that was later found to be apparently totally made up by the Daily Telegraph.

and

B) that Josh Dugan doesn't have any potential to improve. This claim by PE should be answered with nothing more than an emoticon (ie this one :lol but the amount of times Dugan gets in position to stop a try but gets bumped off due to him not yet being at his physical peak is unbelievable. His positioning is first class and when he gets the strength to match that positioning he will be an even better defensive fullback.

That is not taking into account his growing play making ability. Just this year alone he has added a pretty strong passing game.

You would have to be a complete mong to believe a 20 year old stick figure who is famed for his defence is not going to improve. Are you seriously that stupid PE. You do know that he like all humans is going to physically get stronger as he goes through his twenties. Dugan isn't some kind of alien. So that is one area he will get better as he ages (defence), I tend to believe the improvement in his passing game shows that he will continue getting better in other aspects of the game. You deadset clown.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

I have just finished watching all the eels matches from 2009 on fast forward.

:lol:

Sad case.