Bret Stewart >Josh Dugan & Hayne

[typicalfan]

Rubbish! Fittler owned them all in 96. But it's interesting to compare Joey and Hayne - who at 22 has done a hell of a lot more.


Since when is winning an Origin proof that someone is the best? Don't 17 players win an Origin game each time? Which one of them is the best?


and no gurantee that they would have, or that Hayne won't, as much as you'd like it to be.

Origin isn't proof alone but here is someone saying Hayne is the best right now but Hayne doesn't really have anything to show for it.

I agree there is no guarantee Hayne will or won't, that is kind of what I have been saying. The only guarantee is that Kenny, Sterlo and Joey all have become greats of the game, Hayne isn't there yet.

 

[Wrong_Number]

I keep hearing this word 'potential' :sarcasm:
I have the potential to win lotto.
Loudstrat has the potential to get laid.
Potential only gets you far, as evident with Loudstrat still pulling himself over bra section of the latest Target catalogue.
So if Hayne wants to become the number one fullback, he better start playing to his potential week in week out.

 

[dubopov]

I can definitely agree with all that.....Hayne seems more destined to be one of the all-time great halves, fullback is definitely not his natural position; a very fair and unbiased post The interesting thing is that both Hayne and Dugan, at their ages, were better than Slater was at their ages :? doesn't mean anything though if they don't achieve.

hayne is a selfish prick .. would never be a quality half .. he'd be even worse than barrett ...

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Great post

Yes, Hayne is very talented. He is a great creator/ball player but he is no where near as polished as the likes of Johns, Fittler etc

Not as polished but already faster and stronger than they ever were.

The polish will come with experience, as it did with Johns and Fittler.

it would be laughable to think otherwise. If he is serious he needs to spend the off season under the guidance of someone like Brett Kenny to learn how to play in the halves

Like most freaks (including Wally Lewis), Kenny can't teach what made him great.

Likewise Hayne. He's already got the vision and the skill; the ability to choose the right option will only come with experience.

And at the moment he should only be a secondary playmaker, instead using his physical talents as a runner. That's what worked last year, and what was missing this year.

He isn't a natural fullback, I reckon a lot of Parra fans would agree except for fanbois like sarahk. IMO he is behind Slater, Dugan, Stewart & Mini as a fullback.

He's a natural footballer. The number he wears on his back is irrelevant. However at fullback he gets the most opportunity to do what he does best, which is running the ball.

Hopefully he decides to pull his head out and become a consistent player.

You mean by making 5 breaks, scoring 2 tries and setting up 2 every week?

Nobody was ever that good every week, and Hayne shouldn't have to be either. Even Johns had games where he only did what he had to.

He really could be anything. He's only 22 so he has plenty of time. Likewise with Dugan, who is only 20. Where was Slater when he was 20? An attacking player with shocking defence and very prone to brain explosions. At the same age Dugan is miles ahead of him as an all-round player

Dugan is clearly more experienced at fullback play than Hayne or Slater at the same age, and he's a strong tackle-breaker, but Dugan faces a lot more staggered defensive lines than Hayne or Slater (not next year though) and doesn't have the explosive speed that makes Slater and Hayne special in attack.

Dugan doesn't look to have much improvement in him - he might become a better ball-player or kicker, and he should get stronger when he fills out - but he's already on top of his positioning and support play. And he's already got genius strength so he mightn't get any stronger either.

 

[typicalfan]

I can definitely agree with all that.....Hayne seems more destined to be one of the all-time great halves, fullback is definitely not his natural position; a very fair and unbiased post The interesting thing is that both Hayne and Dugan, at their ages, were better than Slater was at their ages :? doesn't mean anything though if they don't achieve.

Yeah I am not sure Hayne will remain at fullback all his career. I feel as though as he gets older he might move closer to the action at 5/8.

Slater wasn't that good early in his career. Neither was Minichiello, he was a bumbling mistake ridden winger in the mould of a Shannon Hegarty. Now we look back and he was an amazing fullback with fairly safe hands (except for a crucial moment in 2003)

I think the point about Hayne and him needing to produce over the course of his career, is somewhat ironic in this thread. Like Hayne, Stewart had the world at his feet and now there is no guarantee he will get back to where he was. I think there is a lesson to be learned in that.

 

[boxhead]

Exactly! No one denies Hayne has the world at his feet, if he wanted it enough he could have anything in the game. But players aren't judged on what they could do or what they might do.

Hayne was great last year and the expectations he set for himself last year have meant this year has been a bit empty in most peoples eyes. 2010 was a frustrating year, even his coach admitted he was not playing well.

This might incite some criticism but when I compare Hayne in terms of his potential and I say potential as being something that may or may not occur I think a little of Big Mal.

Big Mal in the end was what you would describe as the perfect mould for a footballer, big, strong, resilient, skillful, quick in his youth, great runner, great defender, and above all was a leader among men.

Hayne has some of those raw attributes (skill, size, speed, running) but if he develops some of those others I think he will go down as a great of the game. But while that could be his destiny he still has a long long long way to go and can't be categorised or even be put in the same class. I would be disappointed if Hayne felt like PE does and thinks he is already great so no need to work hard to improve.

Hayne, I think, is possibly the most naturally talented player ever.....whether he fulfills his potential is something we can't really argue; we have no idea if he will. Assume that he does, and he could go down as the greatest player ever in Rugby League. I agree with the whole of your post, I think the comparisons between Meninga and Hayne are justified. However, I believe Hayne already is a leader among men-if you notice, he commands huge respect from his team-mates and at the Eels he is quite often acting as a captain-figure.

You're right. Johns was a later bloomer than Hayne, which is understandable given he played a less physical game.

Completely wrong. Johns played in the forwards, not as an outside back....however I will agree partially in the sense that Johns played the organising role and Hayne plays more of a 'physical' role in terms of playing as a half in attack.....

Nobody better has stepped up since last year.

The late 2009 form of Hayne has not been beaten by anyone this year, true, but Boyd, Dugan, Coote and Carney all had better years than him.

Hayne's already there. He dominated the NRL at the age of 21. The only criticism of him is consistency yet in a year he is said to have been 'quiet' he still came second in total metres.

Something I thought too.....in a 'quiet year' he is still one of the best players in Rugby League....go figure.

Actually just their achievements - none of them are good enough for first grade any more, so we remember the talent they had - how good they were at their best.

Hayne at his best is already up there with these guys - he has drawn comparisons from some of these guys themselves (Kenny and Johns) as well as one of the game's coaching legends (Gould). The kind of people who have no need to feel jealous or insecure.

I don't know......Hayne at his best is amazing, and arguably his 'best' is still yet to be seen (very young), but you still cannot call him one of the greats until late into his career, and if he consistently plays at his best.....hell even if he plays like he did this year he will go down as one of the greats simply because in a 'bad year' he is still one of the best players....

He's already carried his team to a grand final on the back of 6 consecutive MotM performances. He's already played 11 Origin games. In 2 years he'll catch Kenny (17 games). In 2 more he'll catch Daley and Johns (23 games). He debuted for Australia as a teenager. He's one of the youngest players ever to win the Dally M Medal.

If he breaks his neck tomorrow it won't change how good he has already been.

That is interesting isn't it? Hayne at 22 looks very likely to match the games played for all-time greats like Johns and Daley.....and very soon too.

None of them were ever as good as Hayne is already. Craigie was fat and lazy, Walker was into drugs and alcohol, and Mundine never backed up his talk on the field.

They all played more first grade than Hayne has so far yet they played 3 Origin games between them (all Mundine). Did I mention Hayne has played Origin 11 times? And he's only 22.

Hayne has also played league for Australia unlike those three (though Walker has played for the Wallabies).

I don't really agree or disagree with this.....

Johns played halfback and hooker, Hayne on the wing/fullback. Lets not carry this debate over to which positions are more physical even in the 90's playing in the middle of the ruck was tougher than playing on the wing or at fullback now.

Carney won the Dally M didn't he? Darius Boyd was the best fullback this year wasn't he? Slater was the best rep player wasn't he? All 3 had better years than Hayne.

Why isn't Hayne on par with these guys this year?

Slater is still the best fullback in the game he proved it in origin as he has proved in many times over the last 3 years, not in just a few weeks of his career.

Those guys played at a level Hayne did last year for over a decade. You realise this right? This is the reason why they are so good and considered greats.

Hayne has proved over several months actually why he is a great player, you should see his form when he debutted, the fact that he has played for Australia (the best RL international team in the world) as one of the youngest players ever to do so, and the fact that he has actually been very good this year despite having a bad year by his standards. A 'few weeks' is competely wrong, you are discrediting everything he has done for NSW, Australia and the Eels over his short career.....it is way more than a 'few games' mate.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

So you have no data for the two premierships the Broncos won and your conclusion based on not a second of footy is he wasn't a first grade standard playmaker? Right.

There was no try assist data before '99. But I watched footy in the late 90s and I remember Lockyer wasn't a primary playmaker for the Broncos until the year after Langer retired (2000). Prior to that Langer and Walters ran the team. In 1999 it was Walters and Ben Walker. Lockyer hit the gaps, just like Hayne last year.

Be careful arguing with a footy nerd like me mate because I know everything. Especially about rugby league during the 90s when I really cared.

 

[typicalfan]

Dugan doesn't look to have much improvement in him - he might become a better ball-player or kicker, and he should get stronger when he fills out - but he's already on top of his positioning and support play. And he's already got genius strength so he mightn't get any stronger either.

See this is another argument I have experienced before that I don't like.

I remember hearing the same thing when Cameron Smith came into grade. He seemed to have all the tricks from day 1. I remember laughing at the thought before and I feel the same here. No player has fulfilled their potential by age 21. It is something that has been suggested and proven wrong so so many times. Dugan won't hit his peak for a long long time, until then he is just a kid making waves. Same goes for Hayne.

 

[Raiders_Premiers]

Not as polished but already faster and stronger than they ever were.

The polish will come with experience, as it did with Johns and Fittler.

All players are getting stronger & faster. Hayne is primarily an outside back, he needs to be fast. It isn't a prerequisite for halves to be fast, so your point doesn't really hold any meaning.

To compare him at this point to Johns or Fittler as a half is beyond joke and frankly an insult to 2 of the greatest players in history

Like most freaks (including Wally Lewis), Kenny can't teach what made him great.

I only suggested Kenny because to my knowledge he works/coaches at Parra. If not any good halves coach to mentor him

Dugan faces a lot more staggered defensive lines than Hayne or Slater (not next year though)

And what do you base this on? Dugan is very highly targeted and gets pummeled in defence. Kickers are very reluctant to kick in his direction

Dugan doesn't look to have much improvement in him - he might become a better ball-player or kicker, and he should get stronger when he fills out - but he's already on top of his positioning and support play. And he's already got genius strength so he mightn't get any stronger either.

That is pure garbage

His defence will get even better, he will make even less mistakes with experience. In terms of support play he isn't very good. The Raiders missed this throughout the season especially the last game against the Tigers

He is also quite poor with the fitness & rehabilitation side of things. If/once he improves, the sky is the limit. He is wayyy off his peak

 

[typicalfan]

Hayne has proved over several months actually why he is a great player, you should see his form when he debutted, the fact that he has played for Australia (the best RL international team in the world) as one of the youngest players ever to do so, and the fact that he has actually been very good this year despite having a bad year by his standards. A 'few weeks' is competely wrong, you are discrediting everything he has done for NSW, Australia and the Eels over his short career.....it is way more than a 'few games' mate.

Fair enough, all his great games at rep level on the wing as well was something I wasn't referring to. Mainly just the comparison between Slater and Hayne as fullbacks. The point I was just trying to make is that I felt all time greatness or even being the premier fullback in the game currently is a little premature.

 

[boxhead]

hayne is a selfish prick .. would never be a quality half .. he'd be even worse than barrett ...

Wow, you are biased much
How do you think Hayne plays in attack mate? He played the dominant play-maker role this year because no one else could. Hayne is not a selfish prick, whatever you may think, since the 2008 World Cup Hayne has turned his life around and changed, he is a far better person now than he used to be. He is a regular at church, is hugely focused on the team, and if you notice happens to be a leader for the Eels......if you actually pay attention to the man instead of reading media drivel, you will see that he is not selfish and is actually one of the nicer, but misunderstood, players in Rugby League. Also, Hayne has almost limitless potential and plays as a half in attack anyway, why do you think he won't succeed?

Yeah I am not sure Hayne will remain at fullback all his career. I feel as though as he gets older he might move closer to the action at 5/8.

Slater wasn't that good early in his career. Neither was Minichiello, he was a bumbling mistake ridden winger in the mould of a Shannon Hegarty. Now we look back and he was an amazing fullback with fairly safe hands (except for a crucial moment in 2003)

I think the point about Hayne and him needing to produce over the course of his career, is somewhat ironic in this thread. Like Hayne, Stewart had the world at his feet and now there is no guarantee he will get back to where he was. I think there is a lesson to be learned in that.

Exactly.

 

[Wrong_Number]

.

Be careful arguing with a footy nerd like me mate because I know everything.

Ok, I have been warned :lol:

 

[typicalfan]

There was no try assist data before '99. But I watched footy in the late 90s and I remember Lockyer wasn't a primary playmaker for the Broncos until the year after Langer retired (2000). Prior to that Langer and Walters ran the team. In 1999 it was Walters and Ben Walker. Lockyer hit the gaps, just like Hayne last year.

Be careful arguing with a footy nerd like me mate because I know everything. Especially about rugby league during the 90s when I really cared.

Just because he wasn't chief playmaker didn't mean he wasn't of first grade standard. He didn't need to run the team but he was still created a bucketload of tries and produced a lot of linking play from the back. No doubt Lockyer revolutionised the role and influenced what we see now.

 

[boxhead]

Fair enough, all his great games at rep level on the wing as well was something I wasn't referring to. Mainly just the comparison between Slater and Hayne as fullbacks. The point I was just trying to make is that I felt all time greatness or even being the premier fullback in the game currently is a little premature.

Ah yes I definitely see your point I definitely agree, Hayne has played very little of his career at fullback; most of it has been at centre or on the wing, comparing him to all-time greats already is very foolish IMO. I 100% agree with you in that whole post.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

But But Hayne came 3rd at the end of year foot race behind two union boys.

Hayne's quickest over 30-40 metres. He's far too big to be as effective over the length of the field.

boyd is better than all three of them ..

Boyd's average mate, which is why he's not part of this debate.

I would be disappointed if Hayne felt like PE does and thinks he is already great so no need to work hard to improve.

The difference between me and Hayne is I'm allowed to rest on somebody else's laurels because it's not me out there on the field.

I can be as lazy and complacent as I want. I can talk up whoever I want without putting them under pressure because I'm just a fan.

Hayne's results speak for themselves - he's changed his on-field role and had a 'quiet' year while still sh*tting all over the current Dally M Fullback in almost every statistical category.

All while playing in a team that finished at the other end of the table.

 

[Pete Cash]

lol comedy gold suggesting that Dugan isn't targeted by defensive lines. Name which players in the Raiders side in your opinion PE get more mention by opposition coaches before they play the Raiders.

Maybe Campese.

That is all.

 

[typicalfan]

Ah yes I definitely see your point I definitely agree, Hayne has played very little of his career at fullback; most of it has been at centre or on the wing, comparing him to all-time greats already is very foolish IMO. I 100% agree with you in that whole post.

Yes I asked the question to PE why Hayne wasn't so good this year. He gave the fact people don't like him or something. I love watching Hayne play, I watched the Parra/Panthers game this year every chance I got.

I think he is the victim of poor coaching and poor halves. His stats are high and his involvement is high, higher than it should be. No one being effective enough means Hayne has to step in.

When it is last tackle in the attacking end you don't want Hayne kicking the ball you want him contesting the kick.

 

[Wrong_Number]

Hayne's quickest over 30-40 metres. He's far too big to be as effective over the length of the field.

Doesn't matter mate, he lost to two union boys. Have you ever seen Lockyer lose to union boys in a 100m dash? I don't think so. Show me evidence, you got any statistics on that?
I rest my case :lol:

 

[boxhead]

Yes I asked the question to PE why Hayne wasn't so good this year. He gave the fact people don't like him or something. I love watching Hayne play, I watched the Parra/Panthers game this year every chance I got.

I think he is the victim of poor coaching and poor halves. His stats are high and his involvement is high, higher than it should be. No one being effective enough means Hayne has to step in.

When it is last tackle in the attacking end you don't want Hayne kicking the ball you want him contesting the kick.

Exactly, I think every Eels fan dreams about next year where we will make a supposed huge recruitment drive for 2012, with a dominant half at the helm (Quade Cooper is most likely) or perhaps two......when Hayne is paired with dominant halves/hooker and can actually play his natural game, he is far better for it.....when he runs the ball we all know what he can do

 

[boxhead]

Doesn't matter mate, he lost to two union boys. Have you ever seen Lockyer lose to union boys in a 100m dash? I don't think so. Show me evidence, you got any statistics on that?
I rest my case :lol:

:roll:

So when Hayne still beats two of the fastest players in Rugby League at the moment (Josh Morris and Ben Barba), the fact that he lost to two of the fastest runners in football codes (if not the fastest, apparently) means all of a sudden he is crap because of it? Give me a break mate, people go on about how fast Josh Morris is after he nearly caught Michael Gordon from a turn-around standing-start this year, and Hayne smashed him in the race.

Seems like your post is completely invalid, especially considering you can't say Lockyer ran against faster or slower players than Hayne did. Did Locky even do a recorded 100m sprint against high profile players??? It doesn't matter.....
Actually, I'm not sure I understand what you meant in your post..... :lol: I must be drugged up or something

I don't see the argument anyway; so what if Hayne was in a marathon? That doesn't say anything about other players he competes with......

In fact PE, the fastest over 30-40 metres at Parramatta is Fui Fui Moi Moi!!!!!!!!