Bret Stewart >Josh Dugan & Hayne

[Poupou Escobar]

I'm not missing anything.

A once in a generation player is a player who stands out above every other player of the decade. Johns was one. Lewis was one. Hayne isn't even close.

Phil Gould said Hayne's the best player in any code of football in Australia. Brett Kenny said Hayne's the most influential Eel of all time. Andrew Johns said Hayne's got all the ability of "Sterling and Kenny, Wally Lewis, Allan Langer, Thurston and Lockyer".

He hasn't achieved what these guys have because he's only 22. But ability is how good you are right now, not how good you've been for 10 years.

Johns was the best player in the game when he was 22 and he hadn't even won a premiership then. Everything that came after was just confirmation. It's the same with Hayne - last year he showed he was special. Everything after last year is just confirmation.

Just like a young Johns and Fittler, people are rubbishing Hayne and saying he needs to show consistency through his career but that's because that's the only thing they can fault a young genius on - he's only been around for a short time.

But when has a player ever played as well as Hayne did last year and not gone on to be one of the greats? He's 22 this year. He's getting better, not worse. This year he became a playmaker as well as a runner. Just like Lockyer in 2000 (the year he turned 23).

He's not even the best player in the game. If he could maintain that end of 2009 form into 2010, then he very well could lay claim to that title.

Mate he was already the best at the end of last year. He hasn't gotten worse, he's gotten better. Unfortunately his team let him down this year.

Who in the game is capable of dominating like Hayne can? Nobody.

If he maitained that form for another 3+ years then he could well be called a 'once in a generation player'.

Well he's only 22. He'll be playing for another 8 years at least unless he becomes a missionary in Africa or goes to AFL or union.

And for the record, his form at the end of last year was probably the best form any player's shown ever in the history of the game. He only has to hold his form of this year to go down as one of the greats.

I await your next barrage of numbers trying to prove otherwise. I'll just watch the game to form my opinion.

The numbers are determined by what happens on the field mate. Or do you think the statisticians just make them up?

 

[CGD]

Stewart for as good as he was has been long removed from the game and thus has fallen down the pecking order. He starts mid grid and it's up to him to change our minds and the NSW selectors. If he looks to Minichiello for inspiration, he will do ok and be back to his try scoring best for the Sea Eagles. Until then though, it's all up hill.

Very fair post.

You know, the reality is this thread (and others like it) only exist because of the absolute wealth of talent at fullback we've been witnessing recently. It's good stuff.

 

[Raiders_Premiers]

It's a real talent for Parra fans to turn every thread into a a Hayne wankfest

A real talent

 

[Big Pete]

Lockyer was already a playmaker in 1995...

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Lockyer was already a playmaker in 1995...

He might've been a playmaker ever since under 6s but he wasn't a first grade standard one until 2000:

Lockyer try assists
1998 (no data)
1999 5 (in 22 games)
2000 16
2001 19
2002 17
2003 14
2004 23
2005 21
2006 22
2007 10
2008 12
2009 14
2010 11

 

[typicalfan]

When Joey was 22 the best player in the game was either Alfie or Daley. Take your pick.


What has happened this year to confirm Hayne is the best player in the game? premiership? origin? medal driven award?

When Johns was 21 he was involved in a World Cup final win. Big difference, and Johns did eventually back it up with accolades but Hayne won't get there until he does, there is nothing set in stone.

Fact is Kenny, Fittler, Johns, Sterlo etc are all time greats because of their talent and their achievements. There is no guarantee Hayne will achieve 1/10th of what they have.

Guys like Owen Craigie, Andrew Walker, Anthony Mundine all had the talent in bucketloads but it didn't transfer into success and that is why we don't talk about them in the same breath.

 

[Raiders_Premiers]

When Joey was 22 the best player in the game was either Alfie or Daley. Take your pick.


What has happened this year to confirm Hayne is the best player in the game? premiership? origin? medal driven award?

When Johns was 21 he was involved in a World Cup final win. Big difference, and Johns did eventually back it up with accolades but Hayne won't get there until he does, there is nothing set in stone.

Fact is Kenny, Fittler, Johns, Sterlo etc are all time greats because of their talent and their achievements. There is no guarantee Hayne will achieve 1/10th of what they have.

Guys like Owen Craigie, Andrew Walker, Anthony Mundine all had the talent in bucketloads but it didn't transfer into success and that is why we don't talk about them in the same breath.

Great post

Yes, Hayne is very talented. He is a great creator/ball player but he is no where near as polished as the likes of Johns, Fittler etc it would be laughable to think otherwise. If he is serious he needs to spend the off season under the guidance of someone like Brett Kenny to learn how to play in the halves

He isn't a natural fullback, I reckon a lot of Parra fans would agree except for fanbois like sarahk. IMO he is behind Slater, Dugan, Stewart & Mini as a fullback.

Hopefully he decides to pull his head out and become a consistent player. He really could be anything. He's only 22 so he has plenty of time. Likewise with Dugan, who is only 20. Where was Slater when he was 20? An attacking player with shocking defence and very prone to brain explosions. At the same age Dugan is miles ahead of him as an all-round player

 

[typicalfan]

He might've been a playmaker ever since under 6s but he wasn't a first grade standard one until 2000:

Lockyer try assists
1998 (no data)
1999 5 (in 22 games)
2000 16
2001 19
2002 17
2003 14
2004 23
2005 21
2006 22
2007 10
2008 12
2009 14
2010 11

So you have no data for the two premierships the Broncos won and your conclusion based on not a second of footy is he wasn't a first grade standard playmaker? Right.

 

[Wrong_Number]

But But Hayne came 3rd at the end of year foot race behind two union boys.
That surely must mean something, gais? gais? hello? gais?

 

[dubopov]

boyd is better than all three of them ..

 

[typicalfan]

Great post

Yes, Hayne is very talented. He is a great creator/ball player but he is no where near as polished as the likes of Johns, Fittler etc it would be laughable to think otherwise. If he is serious he needs to spend the off season under the guidance of someone like Brett Kenny to learn how to play in the halves

He isn't a natural fullback, I reckon a lot of Parra fans would agree except for fanbois like sarahk. IMO he is behind Slater, Dugan, Stewart & Mini as a fullback.

Hopefully he decides to pull his ass out and become a consistent player. He really could be anything. He's only 22 so he has plenty of time. Likewise with Dugan, who is only 20. Where was Slater when he was 20? An attacking player with shocking defence and very prone to brain explosions. At the same age Dugan is miles ahead of him as an all-round player

Exactly! No one denies Hayne has the world at his feet, if he wanted it enough he could have anything in the game. But players aren't judged on what they could do or what they might do.

Hayne was great last year and the expectations he set for himself last year have meant this year has been a bit empty in most peoples eyes. 2010 was a frustrating year, even his coach admitted he was not playing well.

This might incite some criticism but when I compare Hayne in terms of his potential and I say potential as being something that may or may not occur I think a little of Big Mal.

Big Mal in the end was what you would describe as the perfect mould for a footballer, big, strong, resilient, skillful, quick in his youth, great runner, great defender, and above all was a leader among men.

Hayne has some of those raw attributes (skill, size, speed, running) but if he develops some of those others I think he will go down as a great of the game. But while that could be his destiny he still has a long long long way to go and can't be categorised or even be put in the same class. I would be disappointed if Hayne felt like PE does and thinks he is already great so no need to work hard to improve.

 

[sarahk]

Rp, don't accuse parra fans of turning every thread into a hayne discussion when it is the likes of yourself that feel the need to mention how good Dugan is whenever Haynes name is mentioned. That's a bit of the case of a pot calling the kettle black don't you think ?

Also, you spastic of the decade, just because I'm female doesn't void my opinion of Hayne being talented and moreso than Dugan. Honestly gtfo it. I would prefer hayne in my team AS A FULLBACK over Dugan and that's got nothing to do with the way they look. I'm sick of having this discussion with you over and over again .

 

[Poupou Escobar]

When Joey was 22 the best player in the game was either Alfie or Daley. Take your pick.

You're right. Johns was a later bloomer than Hayne, which is understandable given he played a less physical game.

What has happened this year to confirm Hayne is the best player in the game? premiership? origin? medal driven award?

Nobody better has stepped up since last year.

When Johns was 21 he was involved in a World Cup final win. Big difference, and Johns did eventually back it up with accolades but Hayne won't get there until he does, there is nothing set in stone.

Hayne's already there. He dominated the NRL at the age of 21. The only criticism of him is consistency yet in a year he is said to have been 'quiet' he still came second in total metres.

Fact is Kenny, Fittler, Johns, Sterlo etc are all time greats because of their talent and their achievements.

Actually just their achievements - none of them are good enough for first grade any more, so we remember the talent they had - how good they were at their best.

Hayne at his best is already up there with these guys - he has drawn comparisons from some of these guys themselves (Kenny and Johns) as well as one of the game's coaching legends (Gould). The kind of people who have no need to feel jealous or insecure.

There is no guarantee Hayne will achieve 1/10th of what they have.

He's already carried his team to a grand final on the back of 6 consecutive MotM performances. He's already played 11 Origin games. In 2 years he'll catch Kenny (17 games). In 2 more he'll catch Daley and Johns (23 games). He debuted for Australia as a teenager. He's one of the youngest players ever to win the Dally M Medal.

If he breaks his neck tomorrow it won't change how good he has already been.

Guys like Owen Craigie, Andrew Walker, Anthony Mundine all had the talent in bucketloads but it didn't transfer into success and that is why we don't talk about them in the same breath.

None of them were ever as good as Hayne is already. Craigie was fat and lazy, Walker was into drugs and alcohol, and Mundine never backed up his talk on the field.

They all played more first grade than Hayne has so far yet they played 3 Origin games between them (all Mundine). Did I mention Hayne has played Origin 11 times? And he's only 22.

Hayne has also played league for Australia unlike those three (though Walker has played for the Wallabies).

 

[Loudstrat]

Loudstrat - Sydney Dick Rider
Poupou Escobar - Nothing but a stats man.

You genius. I don't live in Sydney - and that's in my location ffs!

If Lockyer was still playing fullback, he would have been the best ever.

Rubbish. He wouldn't even be Origin fullback ffs! Heather could neither defend like Jimmy Jack, build up speed like Slater/Stewart/Mullins or break the line like Wombat.

If you had a choice of playing any fullback from the past decade in tomorrow's decider, Lockyer would be my choice easily.

Actually the thinking man would select Luke Phillips in a heartbeat. If you reckon Heathers performance in the 00 GF at fullback was better than all others since, you haven't een paying much attention have you!

When Joey was 22 the best player in the game was either Alfie or Daley. Take your pick.

Rubbish! Fittler owned them all in 96. But it's interesting to compare Joey and Hayne - who at 22 has done a hell of a lot more.

What has happened this year to confirm Hayne is the best player in the game? premiership? origin? medal driven award?

Since when is winning an Origin proof that someone is the best? Don't 17 players win an Origin game each time? Which one of them is the best?

Fact is Kenny, Fittler, Johns, Sterlo etc are all time greats because of their talent and their achievements. There is no guarantee Hayne will achieve 1/10th of what they have.
.

and no gurantee that they would have, or that Hayne won't, as much as you'd like it to be.

 

[boxhead]

Main reason I think Dugan should be left out of the debate. Dugan is a good reference because there are areas in his game that come naturally that Hayne doesn't seen to grasp. But apart from that unless he makes it to rep level I don't see it could be fair to include him.

On the other hand Hayne and Stewart are freaks with what they can do with the ball.

I agree with all of that, definitely....one of the main reasons I think it really is unfair to compare Dugan to the others....

There is a lot of Dugan love going on, but you can't blame Canberra fans as he's the best prospect (Carney aside) they've had come through the grades since the early 90's. He'll play rep footy at some point but he's going to have to contend with another great young player the same age as him in Lachlan Coote. Which of these two young players will become the better player only time will tell.

Out of all the first choice fullbacks for clubs in the NRL the fact that nearly half of them (Stewart, Hayne, Slater, Minichiello, Gidley, Boyd, Bowen) have played for Australia is astonishing. It makes it hard to weigh out the best, and puts a question mark as to how long players like Coote and Dugan will have to wait before making their rep debuts.

I completely agree with all that as well, however on Lachlan Coote I think for some reason he is great now, but won't improve....when I say that I mean I think he hasn't necessarily 'peaked early', but his best attributes are things that you can't really improve....but I am not sure, really. It also depends on who is right for the job (SOO).

I don't see what makes Eels and Raiders supporters any different in this example. I mean the commentators "jizz" all over Hayne and I think everyone recognises his talent but I think Eels fans are going a bit far saying Slater is lucky while Hayne is talented.

That is something I have really been questioning of many people, Slater is obviously extremely talented like Hayne, I don't see why people think that Slater is 'lucky'......he is an absolute star, and definitely in the top five fullbacks of the modern era, perhaps ever.

You do but you also ask yourself how much does Billy Slater play in making those players better and their jobs easier. Seeing as he does call a lot of the plays down there I would say a great deal.

That is something I believe many people don't see when they watch the Storm, and this is something that makes me believe that one day Slater could very well move to halfback.....sure people would say he has Cronk at halfback organising, but if you actually pay attention Slater does as much organising in attack as Cronk does, albeit in a different way....you often see Slater tell Cronk when to kick, Cronk does the rest and Slater scores.....stuff like that.

Did you actually see Hayne play at the end of last year? I haven't seen a fullback have such an impact on games since Brett Mullins in the mid 90's and even then I'll say Hayne was more impressive. Damn you come up with some weird stuff!

I think that Hayne's late 2009 form was possibly the best burst of form ever by a single-player in Rugby League........what amazes me about Hayne is that even in his 'bad' games, ala the Roosters game this year, he still terrorises enemy teams, scores freakish tries and is easily the most dangerous player on the field...... :?

 

[Wrong_Number]

So whatever comes out of agenda driven Phil Gould mouth is gospel? :crazy:
Well, Johns said Lockyer was the best player he has ever played against.
You got to think Johns has played against some of the best, Fitler, Daley, Langer and co.

Oh and Ray Warren the voice of rugby league thinks Slater was the best ever fullback he has ever seen. He has no reason to be biased unlike that fatty Gould.

 

[Wrong_Number]

You genius. I don't live in Sydney - and that's in my location ffs!


Rubbish. He wouldn't even be Origin fullback ffs! Heather could neither defend like Jimmy Jack, build up speed like Slater/Stewart/Mullins or break the line like Wombat.

Actually the thinking man would select Luke Phillips in a heartbeat. If you reckon Heathers performance in the 00 GF at fullback was better than all others since, you haven't een paying much attention have you!



Rubbish! Fittler owned them all in 96. But it's interesting to compare Joey and Hayne - who at 22 has done a hell of a lot more.


Since when is winning an Origin proof that someone is the best? Don't 17 players win an Origin game each time? Which one of them is the best?


and no gurantee that they would have, or that Hayne won't, as much as you'd like it to be.

Get your hand off it son.
I hate everything to do with QLD, but let's be honest here. Lockyer is class above the rest.

 

[typicalfan]

Johns played halfback and hooker, Hayne on the wing/fullback. Lets not carry this debate over to which positions are more physical even in the 90's playing in the middle of the ruck was tougher than playing on the wing or at fullback now.

Carney won the Dally M didn't he? Darius Boyd was the best fullback this year wasn't he? Slater was the best rep player wasn't he? All 3 had better years than Hayne.

Why isn't Hayne on par with these guys this year?

Slater is still the best fullback in the game he proved it in origin as he has proved in many times over the last 3 years, not in just a few weeks of his career.

Those guys played at a level Hayne did last year for over a decade. You realise this right? This is the reason why they are so good and considered greats.

 

[boxhead]

Over the years, there are many players that will come up with flashes of brilliance over a few games but then goes missing the rest of the time.
Mundine springs to mind. He had all the talent in the world, but never had the consistency and mindset to reach the heights of a Daley or Fitler.

I think what you don't understand is that even in a year where everyone said Hayne was crap, he was still by far the best player for the Eels the whole year, was by far the most dangerous player for the Eels and generally single-handedly won the Eels every game where they were victorious. The media spouts crap that because he isn't playing as much razzle-dazzle as 2009 that he is playing badly, but in reality he was still one of the most dangerous attacking players this year and had a hand in nearly every point scored by the Eels.....he was the only playmaker for the Eels this year, the amount of weight on his shoulders to essentially carry the whole team is something that I think none of the other players could possibly do....especially from fullback.....
Thing about Hayne is that even when he has a quiet game, he is still often the most dangerous player on the field......

However, my argument remains that each fullback is equal in the way that for what they do for their team they are the best.

I sympathise with both fan bases here.

Firstly with the Eels fans who have to put up with all the tall poppy induced attacks on Hayne at any opportunity because the media dares to promote him and the game.

Secondly with the Raiders fans...Actually screw it if I was a Raiders fan I'd be licking my lips in anticipation over the next five years. After about 7-8 years of disappointment the Raiders are finally on a few winners and if the likes of Dugan, Croker, Vidot, Low, Waddell, Thompson, Fensom and Mataora fulfill their potential. Seriously if some of you guys found the Raiders fans annoying before...you're going to find them a THOUSAND times more annoying when these guys annihilate you in the future.

As for who's better.

I'd say Brett Stewart and Jarryd Hayne are on equal peggings as player with Hayne holding the advantage due to his age and well being.

Dugan has a way to go before he should be included in this discussion, ditto Coote (and really ditto on Hoffman).

I can agree with all that........although I do genuinely think Dugan, Coote and Hoffman will be up there at some point, however I severely doubt they will be *as good* as Slater, Minicheillo, Stewart and Lockyer were for this generation.....I believe Hayne has the most potential of the 'new generation' fullbacks and is also the most likely, I think he will definitely be spoken of in the future as one of the all-time greats; hell he has been named in the 'official' top five most entertaining players ever, but I too doubt if it will be in the same class as Lockyer and Slater.....

That's my two cents

 

[boxhead]

Great post

Yes, Hayne is very talented. He is a great creator/ball player but he is no where near as polished as the likes of Johns, Fittler etc it would be laughable to think otherwise. If he is serious he needs to spend the off season under the guidance of someone like Brett Kenny to learn how to play in the halves

He isn't a natural fullback, I reckon a lot of Parra fans would agree except for fanbois like sarahk. IMO he is behind Slater, Dugan, Stewart & Mini as a fullback.

Hopefully he decides to pull his head out and become a consistent player. He really could be anything. He's only 22 so he has plenty of time. Likewise with Dugan, who is only 20. Where was Slater when he was 20? An attacking player with shocking defence and very prone to brain explosions. At the same age Dugan is miles ahead of him as an all-round player

I can definitely agree with all that.....Hayne seems more destined to be one of the all-time great halves, fullback is definitely not his natural position; a very fair and unbiased post The interesting thing is that both Hayne and Dugan, at their ages, were better than Slater was at their ages :? doesn't mean anything though if they don't achieve.