Brief history of league (and battle against union) in France

[miguel de cervantes]

A good summary of the history of rugby league and it's batlle with union in France (in english)

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article2936693.ece

This would perhaps make a good sticky.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Thanks for that, it needs to be told, I get sick of seeing all the pro rah rah WC stuff on Fox sports lately, when are they going to tell the truth, and more importantly, when are they going to put some RL pieces on? :x

 

[deluded pom?]

A tv station in the UK is promoting the RUWC as the greatest team sport in the world!

 

[miguel de cervantes]

A tv station in the UK is promoting the RUWC as the greatest team sport in the world!

Many years ago, there lived an emperor who was quite an average fairy tale ruler, with one exception: he cared much about his clothes. One day he heard from two swindlers named Guido and Luigi Farabutto that they could make the finest suit of clothes from the most beautiful cloth. This cloth, they said, also had the special capability that it was invisible to anyone who was either stupid or not fit for his position.
Being a bit nervous about whether he himself would be able to see the cloth, the emperor first sent two of his trusted men to see it. Of course, neither would admit that they could not see the cloth and so praised it. All the townspeople had also heard of the cloth and were interested to learn how stupid their neighbors were.
The emperor then allowed himself to be dressed in the clothes for a procession through town, never admitting that he was too unfit and stupid to see what he was wearing. He was afraid that the other people would think that he was stupid.
Of course, all the townspeople wildly praised the magnificent clothes of the emperor, afraid to admit that they could not see them, until a small child said:
"But he has nothing on!"
This was whispered from person to person until everyone in the crowd was shouting that the emperor had nothing on. The emperor heard it and felt that they were correct, but held his head high and finished the procession. (and then the crowd mauled him and ripped him to shreads - the end)

 

[deluded pom?]

I always liken soccer (with the indecent amount of media coverage it gets in the UK) to that tale mdc.

 

[Clive Woody]

A tv station in the UK is promoting the RWC as the greatest team sport in the world!

A pretty accurate description!

 

[Clive Woody]

A good summary of the history of rugby league and it's batlle with union in France (in english)

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article2936693.ece

This would perhaps make a good sticky.

No mention of France hosting the RLWC twice post WWII, first in 1954 when they narrowly lost in the final, then again in 1972 they hosted it a second time. Also they were runners up in 1968.

In 1951 France won a series in Australia and they repeated this in 1955. Again in 1978 France beat the Aussies twice.

More recently in 1990 they beat a Great Britain team including Shaun Edwards, Garry Schofield, Martin Offiah and Denis Betts.


The failure of league in France has only itself to blame, to point the finger at rugby is simply trying to come up with a convinient excuse for it's own failings!


Let's hear the excuses then boys?

 

[miguel de cervantes]

No mention of France hosting the RLWC twice post WWII, first in 1954 when they narrowly lost in the final, then again in 1972 they hosted it a second time. Also they were runners up in 1968.

In 1951 France won a series in Australia and they repeated this in 1955. Again in 1978 France beat the Aussies twice.

More recently in 1990 they beat a Great Britain team including Shaun Edwards, Garry Schofield, Martin Offiah and Denis Betts.


The failure of league in France has only itself to blame, to point the finger at rugby is simply trying to come up with a convinient excuse for it's own failings!


Let's hear the excuses then boys?

I agree that the descendence of league in France from it's throne is not a direct result of the Vichy episode, but you can't say it helped the game. More irritating is the fact that they have not received a franc in compensation even when everyone knows it happened and everyone knows it was wrong.

No union supporter has even given me a good reason for the lack of compensation. Why? Because there isn't one.

If the FFRXIII did get compensation with 60 years compound interest included, one would imagine this would amount to a pretty franc, would certainly help their current cause and would possibly harm jeu à xv's cause in France. This I think is the real reason there is no compensation. The FFRXV fear it would damage their image. It can't be a money issue, not with it flowing out of their ears at present. The FFRXV are too gutless and scared to admit to the spineless act they committed.

 

[rugby13france-livrade+sav]

miguel de cervantes,

who really know in France what are the properties sized by Vichy in 1942 ?

who really know in France what are the properties sized by Vichy in 1942
(the decree concerns only the federation i.e LFR.13 (not the clubs which were in ru or in other sports or having stopped theirs activities) and has been signed on 29 december 1941)
and transfered
- to ru ? or
- to other(s) sport(s) ? or
- to the pockets of the vichy managers ?


by how many years the materials crimes -misdemeanourd- are prescribed in France ?

by how many years the murders are prescribed in France ?


For what reasons the federation i.e. LFR.13 (1944 to 1949), FFJ.13 (1949 to 1993), FFR.13 (since 1993) remains silencious on this matter:
- properties sized represent a small amount ? or
- she received a compensation from the French Republic several years ago ? or
- she received an annual compensation from the French Republic, this since several years ?
It is at the federation to act against the French Republic but she does nothing, perhaps she has political reasons or political advantages


What is the most important: the past ? or the present ? or the future ?


During the years 1944 to 1960 the federation, the clubs were very rich (purchase of the best ru players, of many and many ru players) !, the stadiums were full (and sometimes more than full) !!
and, why since around 25/30 years it is the contrary (responsability of vichy or of ru) ?

What is the most important: the past ? or the present ? or the future ?​

.​

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

There all important rugby13france-livrade+sav, you need to look to the past so you don't make the same mistakes in the future.

 

[Clive Woody]

I agree that the descendence of league in France from it's throne is not a direct result of the Vichy episode, but you can't say it helped the game. More irritating is the fact that they have not received a franc in compensation even when everyone knows it happened and everyone knows it was wrong.

No union supporter has even given me a good reason for the lack of compensation. Why? Because there isn't one.

If the FFRXIII did get compensation with 60 years compound interest included, one would imagine this would amount to a pretty franc, would certainly help their current cause and would possibly harm jeu à xv's cause in France. This I think is the real reason there is no compensation. The FFRXV fear it would damage their image. It can't be a money issue, not with it flowing out of their ears at present. The FFRXV are too gutless and scared to admit to the spineless act they committed.

They use Euros in France these days, they have done for quite a while now.

Do you have a list of the assets that were supposedly taken from the FRL?

 

[Clive Woody]

What is the most important: the past ? or the present ? or the future ?

.​

I think for many league fans the important thing is trying to find somebody else to blame for the failure of RL in France. To blame the vichy government and the FRU is a convienient get out that ignores the success of RL post war in France followed by it's sudden demise many decades after the war finished.

 

[miguel de cervantes]

They use Euros in France these days, they have done for quite a while now.

Do you have a list of the assets that were supposedly taken from the FRL?

No sh*t we use euros. Some things in life still cost a pretty penny though.

I don't have a list and I doubt I could find a valid one on the internet. I'm sure something would exist somewhere. Are you saying nothing was taken because no one wrote it down?

 

[Clive Woody]

I don't have a list and I doubt I could find a valid one on the internet. I'm sure something would exist somewhere. Are you saying nothing was taken because no one wrote it down?

I am saying how can you claim compensation for something you can't identify or detail. There are loads of league fans banging on about their assets being pinched, but nobody seems to be able to say what these assets were?

Imagine submitting an insurance claim saying lots of things were stolen I just can't tell you what nor can I tell you how much I want to claim for them. You would look pretty stupid wouldn't you? Do you see my point?

 

[miguel de cervantes]

I am saying how can you claim compensation for something you can't identify or detail. There are loads of league fans banging on about their assets being pinched, but nobody seems to be able to say what these assets were?

Imagine submitting an insurance claim saying lots of things were stolen I just can't tell you what nor can I tell you how much I want to claim for them. You would look pretty stupid wouldn't you? Do you see my point?

Sure I see your point. I just don't know how you expect your average league fan to obtain this sort of information. A lot of this information is probably extremely difficult to obtain and would require sifting through war time bank records for disappearing money, that is if the records weren't destroyed by the war or simply the folks who plundered the money whilst the country was under occupation. The union folk were probably well aware that it would be difficult to get the money back if they correctly covered their tracks.

In saying what you said, you have hit the nail on the head. The lack of FFRXIII action or progress in the courts is most likely (I'm no expert) because of a lack of documentation. Doesn't make what union did any less disgusting, cowardly, vile or criminal, it doesn't change the fact that they know they did it and it doesn't change the fact that it happened. The least union could have done during the last 60 years is say sorry and perhaps offer some compensation. Instead they have done nothing. They are just hoping it fades away, that any witnesses die off so they can say it is no longer their problem.

 

[rugby13france-livrade+sav]

There all important rugby13france-livrade+sav, you need to look to the past so you don't make the same mistakes in the future.

for me the past good or bad doesn't be put under the carpet but

as from 1946 to 1960 why the french rl clubs managers, the managers of the LFR.13 (1944 to 1949), FFJ.13 (1949 to 1993) did they make the same errors than between 1937 to 1940:
purchase/robbery of the best ru players, of many and many ru players i.e. spending several and several millions french francs instead of using these several millions french francs to develop the game amongst the youngs ?
if vichy robbed in 1942 all the properties, from where come the funds to re-install in 1 month (october 1944) the clubs, the LFR.13 i.e. this despite the fact that the War wasn't finished in France (the Liberation of the last french town occupied occured the 9 or 10 may 1945) ?

who amongst you is aware that canada and usa have had their respective ambassador in tovichy till 7 or 8 november 1942 ?,
who amongst you is aware that vichy has had a full embassy in canberra till july 1944 (de gaulle had also his ambassy in canberra),
who amongst you is aware that in 1940 australia forbbad the entry of the jewes nederland refugees ?

------------------------------------------

miguel de cervantes and fans have you read this relating to Challenge Petit Treize:
to organize this challenge the federation requires the schools to contact one of her 11 state civil servants i.e 11 state civil servants for around 8 760 registered members in the federation (the salary of a state civil servant is paid by the french republic)

" Si vous souhaitez mettre en place le Petit Treize dans vos établissements, vous pouvez contacter les cadres techniques de votre région." http://www.ffr13.com/1-14317-Detail-d-une-actualite.php?Id=213

to develop rl amongst the youngs, is it at the schools to contact the 11 state civil servants of the federation ? or, is it at the 11 state civil servants of the federation http://www.ffr13.com/1-13892-La-DTN.php to contact the schools ??
Note:
in 2005 and 2006 the FFR.13 held 12 state civil servants, 1 of them resigned beginning of 2007 and he hasn't been replaced;
in the other french sport federations it is around 1 state civil servant for around 4,500 registered members by french sport federation




miguel as you are in france i think you know that it is " Radio moquette " or " Telephone arabe " to warp a new, an info; it is that he happens for vichy and rl, vichy/ru and rl, in france on the rl forums we have specialists.



miguel as you are in france i think you know that it is " Radio moquette " or " Telephone arabe " to warp a new, an info; it is that he happens for vichy and rl, vichy/ru and rl, in france on the rl forums we have specialists.
read this: http://www.liguepaca13.com/ point HISTOIRE DE LA LEAGUE
" A la libération, renaissance imposée sous l'appellation FEDERATION FRANCAISE DE JEU A XIII ce qui empêche l'application des ordonnances d'Alger du General de GAULLE: "restitution des patrimoines saisis et restauration des droits supprimés par VICHY aux associations sportives". WHERE are the evidences, IS it so difficult to put the evidences on the above site ?
and, the full Liberation of France is it on 9 or 10 may 1945 ? or is it the 22 april 1949 ?
read this: http://www.soavignon.com/infos/feature.php?feat_id=7
" Son siége rue Drouot à Paris a même été détruit par les Nazis, les archives brûlées ": WHAT searches have been made ? WHERE are the evidences " et des officiels emprisonnés. " IS it because they were leaguers ? or Résistants ? WHERE are the evidences, IS it so difficult to put the evidences on the above site ?
" En 1947, la FFR XV par voie de justice parvint à interdire au mouvement treiziste l'utilisation du mot "RUGBY" ", WHERE are the evidences, IS it so difficult to put the evidences on the above site ? ; UNFORTUNATELY the agreement LFR.13/Republic/FFR of 10 july 1947 writes fully the contrary.

as you live in france i think you know the proverb: pour faire tuer son chien il faut clamer qu'il a la rage

.

 

[miguel de cervantes]

...

 

[miguel de cervantes]

as from 1946 to 1960 why the french rl clubs managers, the managers of the LFR.13 (1944 to 1949), FFJ.13 (1949 to 1993) did they make the same errors than between 1937 to 1940:
purchase/robbery of the best ru players, of many and many ru players i.e. spending several and several millions french francs instead of using these several millions french francs to develop the game amongst the youngs ?

perhaps they got greedy. perhaps they were trying to maintain a competitive team against more and more competitive opponents. Rugby XV in australia is doing just this at the moment and they will undoubtably collapse if they continue.

if vichy robbed in 1942 all the properties, from where come the funds to re-install in 1 month (october 1944) the clubs, the LFR.13 i.e. this despite the fact that the War wasn't finished in France (the Liberation of the last french town occupied occured the 9 or 10 may 1945) ?

they probably had money invested, they probably took out hefty loans which eventually came back to bite them decades later. I don't know.

who amongst you is aware that canada and usa have had their respective ambassador in tovichy till 7 or 8 november 1942 ?,
who amongst you is aware that vichy has had a full embassy in canberra till july 1944 (de gaulle had also his ambassy in canberra),
who amongst you is aware that in 1940 australia forbbad the entry of the jewes nederland refugees ?

I wasn't aware.

miguel de cervantes and fans have you read this relating to Challenge Petit Treize:
to organize this challenge the federation requires the schools to contact one of her 11 state civil servants i.e 11 state civil servants for around 8 760 registered members in the federation (the salary of a state civil servant is paid by the french republic)

" Si vous souhaitez mettre en place le Petit Treize dans vos établissements, vous pouvez contacter les cadres techniques de votre région." http://www.ffr13.com/1-14317-Detail-d-une-actualite.php?Id=213

to develop rl amongst the youngs, is it at the schools to contact the 11 state civil servants of the federation ? or, is it at the 11 state civil servants of the federation http://www.ffr13.com/1-13892-La-DTN.php to contact the schools ??
Note:
in 2005 and 2006 the FFR.13 held 12 state civil servants, 1 of them resigned beginning of 2007 and he hasn't been replaced;
in the other french sport federations it is around 1 state civil servant for around 4,500 registered members by french sport federation

Sure it is the initiative of the FFRXIII to involve the schools, i believe that is how it is done in Australia, but perhaps this is not how it is done in France. I don't know. Is this done by other sports? Just because this is written on their website doesn't at all mean the civil servants aren't approaching the schools as well.

I do remember reading that Petit Treize has started to become rather popular in the schools here http://www.rugbyforumxiii.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21277

A 20% rise in licenciées in the Rousillon is not bad in one year. It is clear the Dragons are having a positive effect.

miguel as you are in france i think you know that it is " Radio moquette " or " Telephone arabe " to warp a new, an info; it is that he happens for vichy and rl, vichy/ru and rl, in france on the rl forums we have specialists.

yes, well what can you expect. I see a lot of «telephone arabe» in action on the french forum when talking of NRL etc.

" A la libération, renaissance imposée sous l'appellation FEDERATION FRANCAISE DE JEU A XIII ce qui empêche l'application des ordonnances d'Alger du General de GAULLE: "restitution des patrimoines saisis et restauration des droits supprimés par VICHY aux associations sportives".

This seems strange. They couldn't recuperate their losses because of the name change technicality, ie the possessions belonged to rugby à xiii, not jeu à xiii? And it was union who forced this name change by law. This I didn't know.

WHERE are the evidences, IS it so difficult to put the evidences on the above site ?
and, the full Liberation of France is it on 9 or 10 may 1945 ? or is it the 22 april 1949 ?
read this: http://www.soavignon.com/infos/feature.php?feat_id=7
" Son siége rue Drouot à Paris a même été détruit par les Nazis, les archives brûlées ": WHAT searches have been made ? WHERE are the evidences " et des officiels emprisonnés. " IS it because they were leaguers ? or Résistants ? WHERE are the evidences, IS it so difficult to put the evidences on the above site ?

So according to this a lot of the evidence of what the FFRXIII posessed before the war went up in smoke.

" En 1947, la FFR XV par voie de justice parvint à interdire au mouvement treiziste l'utilisation du mot "RUGBY" ", WHERE are the evidences, IS it so difficult to put the evidences on the above site ? ; UNFORTUNATELY the agreement LFR.13/Republic/FFR of 10 july 1947 writes fully the contrary.

If you want the evidence, write to the xiiiactif group, 13actif@wanadoo.fr perhaps they can give you some copies of what ever evidence remains.

as you live in france i think you know the proverb: pour faire tuer son chien il faut clamer qu'il a la rage.

non, je ne le connais pas, mais c'est un bon dicton. je ne pense pas que nous, les treizistes, veulent tuer le XV. Nous ne voulons que ce que nous est du - des aveux et le respect.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

For those who are not registered and can't see the news paper pics.

 

[Paley]

purchase/robbery of the best ru players

robbery - don't be so stupid.

Which union players did rugby purchase? Who did rugby purchase them from? Is there a big market where union players are sold?