Building the next NZ team

[The Great Dane]

Always thought Pounamu green and White/Black would work quite well as a ’neutral’ colour set- looks quite good in the Maori kits.

Yeah, jade and some mixture of black, white, grey, or silver, would work fine.

 

[blue bags]

I like the idea of a 2nd side and maybe in the future a 3rd side. Obviously the two main markets are Wellington & Christchurch. At this point in time I’d definitely go with the South Island bid. Mainly to create a north vs south rivalry, similar to what the Broncos and NQLD have. Also Christchurch is getting a brand new rectangular stadium, why not choose that over an another bloody oval. The other factor being TV rights. $200m over 5 years is what we have atm, a significant increase over the former. With two NZ sides and potentially Sydney teams taking games to other regions of NZ, you could practically have a NZ game played at 8pm every Friday of the year, while also helping the poor crowd wise 6pm slot in AUS. With any luck a FTA broadcaster in NZ picks up on this and has a go at sky/newscorp for the rights. A 2nd NZ club for the 28’ rights and beyond could easily double what we have now if a FTA broadcaster has a go. Not to mention the bigger exposure the NRL will get. On top of this having a team on the South Island will attract a lot my Juniors in the region and those pesky Union players that are good, but might not make the All blacks, having a team right there paying arguably more the Union. It’d be mighty attractive to make the switch. All you need would be a couple of bigger names and more would surely follow.

Marlins
Southern Marlins would be fantastic
If not
Southern orcas

 

[Matua]

I wouldn't touch Wellington unless a new rectangular stadium is part of the deal. The Cake Tin is the embodiment of arse cancer in stadium form for rectangular sports, and Wellington doesn't have the best reputation as a sporting city to begin with.

A second NRL side could get by just on poaching talent from Union's system and topping the team up with journey men at least initially as well. I'm sure there're more than a few Kiwi's plying their trade over here who would jump at the chance to move back across the ditch if it was possible. If I was the NRL I'd step in and make sure they sign a household name or two for their inaugural team as well, even if that meant some form of one off cap dispensation to get the ball rolling.

That's not really true. Wellington had a great reputation as a sporting city through the late 90s and most of the 2000s with the Canes in their pomp, the 7s, the Phoenix, some cracking Warriors games, and cricket at the Basin. They've only really declined similar to how going to live sport has declined throughout NZ. We're in a weird situation where pay tv is happy with their numbers but the crowds are staying away.

Also, the Caketin is not as bad as you're making out, it's a tiny oval, so in the scheme of the majority of NZ sports grounds the seats are generally pretty good (I'd rather sit in a Caketin corner than a similar sport in a rectangle). It only lacks when comparing it with the proper rectangles and there's only really two of them Dunedin and Hamilton (and soon to be Chch unless they stuff that build up).

Also, I don't want to turn this into the other thread but why do you think they could get by on (partially) poaching rugby talent? There really isn't that much rugby talent getting poached. Most are already league players. The biggest poach in recent years in Thompson and he was a club (amateur) midfield back.

And we have the far better product

As I said above I don't want this to descend into the other thread, but, league might be the better product for you, it's not for the majority of NZers.

 

[Perth Red]

Also, I don't want to turn this into the other thread but why do you think they could get by on (partially) poaching rugby talent? There really isn't that much rugby talent getting poached. Most are already league players. The biggest poach in recent years in Thompson and he was a club (amateur) midfield back.


As I said above I don't want this to descend into the other thread, but, league might be the better product for you, it's not for the majority of NZers.

Please dont open the cave to the trolls! We have the other thread to discuss such nonsense, lets try and keep this one about NZ2 not about RU. Just ignore any attempts to derial.

 

[The Great Dane]

That's not really true. Wellington had a great reputation as a sporting city through the late 90s and most of the 2000s with the Canes in their pomp, the 7s, the Phoenix, some cracking Warriors games, and cricket at the Basin. They've only really declined similar to how going to live sport has declined throughout NZ. We're in a weird situation where pay tv is happy with their numbers but the crowds are staying away.

Yeah the Canes drew pretty well the better part of 20+ years ago, but their crowds have been inconsistent and fickle over their life time.

The Phoenix have never been a big draw, not by NRL standards anyway. Most seasons they'd have had a sub 10k average, and though things have been looking more up recently their numbers have been absolutely abysmal at times. Put it this way, an NRL side wouldn't be viable if they were expected to survive off the Phoenixes numbers long term.

The rest are largely irrelevant, one off events, semi pro, etc.

Also, the Caketin is not as bad as you're making out, it's a tiny oval, so in the scheme of the majority of NZ sports grounds the seats are generally pretty good (I'd rather sit in a Caketin corner than a similar sport in a rectangle). It only lacks when comparing it with the proper rectangles and there's only really two of them Dunedin and Hamilton (and soon to be Chch unless they stuff that build up).

It might be good by NZ standards, but it is that bad by Australian and NRL standards. The club would be starting out in one of the worst home grounds in the league outside of some of the trashiest of the suburban grounds in Sydney and Bruce.

Ovals like the Cake Tin are a massive drag on rectangular sports, and an NRL side would already be a relatively risky prospect in a relatively small, relatively competitive, market like Wellington. The NRL needs to get expansion into NZ right the first time, and should make sure that things are as ideal as possible before having a crack at a market like Wellington, and the Cake Tin simply doesn't meet the standards the NRL should be setting.

Also, I don't want to turn this into the other thread but why do you think they could get by on (partially) poaching rugby talent? There really isn't that much rugby talent getting poached. Most are already league players. The biggest poach in recent years in Thompson and he was a club (amateur) midfield back.


As I said above I don't want this to descend into the other thread, but, league might be the better product for you, it's not for the majority of NZers.

There's a massive difference between suggesting that they could poach RU talent and saying that they could get established first graders.

They'd absolutely be in a position to offer some young blokes fresh out school a fast track to professionalism and a starting position with a solid wage. They'd also be well positioned to poach some outsiders and journeymen who've never really cemented themselves in RU and might be better suited to RL. We'd only be talking about a handful of their top 30 as well.

Yeah they'd be searching for diamonds in the rough, just like every club does from time to time, but it wouldn't/shouldn't be a long term necessity, just a way to get by while they establish their juniors pathways which isn't as straight forward as many people assume.

 

[Matiunz]

It might be good by NZ standards, but it is that bad by Australian and NRL standards. The club would be starting out in one of the worst home grounds in the league outside of some of the trashiest of the suburban grounds in Sydney and Bruce.

Ovals like the Cake Tin are a massive drag on rectangular sports, and an NRL side would already be a relatively risky prospect in a relatively small, relatively competitive, market like Wellington. The NRL needs to get expansion into NZ right the first time, and should make sure that things are as ideal as possible before having a crack at a market like Wellington, and the Cake Tin simply doesn't meet the standards the NRL should be setting.

Cake Tin isn’t that bad used to regularly go to Hurricanes games mid 2000s (plus whenever the Warriors/Kiwis were in town). Behind the posts and side on are still pretty comparable to what most NRL grounds are like, found it better than Mcdonald Jones, both Dragons WIN, points bet, SCG and better than Accor which get plenty of games. Also very accessible by train and CBD (similar to if Sydney had a stadium 10min walk from Central station).
In terms of ‘not being a sporting town’ think can be a bit false, yes they can be fickle with local teams but will certainly jump on a bandwagon and the lions (NPC) and Saints (NBL) are consistently well supported comparatively. Usually sell very well when national teams play.
Can see below the ground isn’t that far from the seating comparatively for a circular stadium

 

[RedVee]

I went to the Wellington 7s some years ago and I thought the cake tin was fine.

 

[blue bags]

NZ 2 . Can Link Up to the
Pasifika Bear's

 

[Matiunz]

NZ 2 . Can Link Up to the
Pasifika Bear's

NZ2 needs to be a solely NZ entity for it to thrive. ‘Pasifika’ makes the mistake of making a team based on race and or a location outside of NZ, Moana Pasifika in Super Rugby is struggling for an identity and supporter base, and outside of Auckland (15%) the Pasifika population is relatively small Wellington has 8% everywhere else is 4% or less- in total you are looking at about 380,000.
‘Bears’ you are making the team a partial Sydney/Australian entity which why would NZers want a transplanted team that even Central coast didn’t want?

 

[Canard]

The Bears brand no longer appeals to anyone under 50.

It just doesn't have any value outside North Shore boomers

 

[Matua]

Yeah the Canes drew pretty well the better part of 20+ years ago, but their crowds have been inconsistent and fickle over their life time.

The Phoenix have never been a big draw, not by NRL standards anyway. Most seasons they'd have had a sub 10k average, and though things have been looking more up recently their numbers have been absolutely abysmal at times. Put it this way, an NRL side wouldn't be viable if they were expected to survive off the Phoenixes numbers long term.

The rest are largely irrelevant, one off events, semi pro, etc.

It might be good by NZ standards, but it is that bad by Australian and NRL standards. The club would be starting out in one of the worst home grounds in the league outside of some of the trashiest of the suburban grounds in Sydney and Bruce.

Ovals like the Cake Tin are a massive drag on rectangular sports, and an NRL side would already be a relatively risky prospect in a relatively small, relatively competitive, market like Wellington. The NRL needs to get expansion into NZ right the first time, and should make sure that things are as ideal as possible before having a crack at a market like Wellington, and the Cake Tin simply doesn't meet the standards the NRL should be setting.

There's a massive difference between suggesting that they could poach RU talent and saying that they could get established first graders.

They'd absolutely be in a position to offer some young blokes fresh out school a fast track to professionalism and a starting position with a solid wage. They'd also be well positioned to poach some outsiders and journeymen who've never really cemented themselves in RU and might be better suited to RL. We'd only be talking about a handful of their top 30 as well.

Yeah they'd be searching for diamonds in the rough, just like every club does from time to time, but it wouldn't/shouldn't be a long term necessity, just a way to get by while they establish their juniors pathways which isn't as straight forward as many people assume.

Why are you so excessively argumentative? Your point was Wellington doesn't have a good reputation as a sporting city, that is incorrect. You might laugh at the Phoenix crowds but they have succeeded in Wellington in a way they couldn't in Auckland in a sport that doesn't attract Aussie league sized crowds.

Like Matiu says, the oval at Wellington isn't as pronounced as being made out. I've been to most NRL grounds and it's is easily comparable to a bunch of them as a viewing experience. If I had to choose between Bruce Stadium (I can't remember it's current branding), Stadium Australia and the Caketin I'd much prefer the Caketin.

Not sure of your poaching point talent response as this is what I replied to:

A second NRL side could get by just on poaching talent from Union's system and topping the team up with journey men at least initially as well.

But whatever your point is, the Warriors have that same opportunity now and there's very few converts. And at any rate, I'm not against teams looking for a few diamonds in then rough like Thompson.

 

[Perth Red]

From south island bid:

In the recent News Corp Australia National Rugby League coaches survey, a second #NewZealand team emerged as a significant contender for #NRL #expansion, achieving the second-highest number of votes with 23%. This impressive achievement, coupled with the enthusiasm shown by current NRL coaches and assistants, underscores the growing interest and potential for a second team from New Zealand.

At South Island NRL Bid, we are heartened by this strong endorsement for expanding New Zealand's presence in the NRL. As we've highlighted in our previous posts, the goal of expanding the #NRL / #NRLW to 20 teams is both a strategic and financially sound decision, key to cementing #rugbyleague as the number one sport in Australasia.

Committed to successfully launching South Island NRL Bid by 2026, we are excited to be at the forefront of this growth.

“In part one of our exclusive 2024 NRL coaches’ survey, 30 of the code’s sharpest minds reveal a surprising expansion consensus, while addressing the biggest threats to rugby league"

"The confidential survey, encompassing the views of the code’s sharpest tacticians, has encouraged the ARL Commission to give the sport a genuine national footprint by going west to Perth.”

“We’re looking at expansion now, absolutely,” V’landys said.

“That (the prospect of adding more NRL franchises) is in progress."

“We’ve already started the process. I don’t know how long it will take."

“We have time and it will take time but we’re hoping we will know more in six months and have a better understanding of when the game is ready for expansion.

“It won’t happen overnight but 2026 or 2027 is certainly a possibility.”

“Intriguingly, the coaches shot down a push for a PNG franchise that could be based full-time in Cairns and have major financial backing from the Australian government.”

“V’landys has previously flagged the prospect of the NRL expanding to 20 teams"

 

[blue bags]

The Bears brand no longer appeals to anyone under 50.

It just doesn't have any value outside North Shore boomers

Bear's still playing in NSW CUP

 

[blue bags]

NZ2 needs to be a solely NZ entity for it to thrive. ‘Pasifika’ makes the mistake of making a team based on race and or a location outside of NZ, Moana Pasifika in Super Rugby is struggling for an identity and supporter base, and outside of Auckland (15%) the Pasifika population is relatively small Wellington has 8% everywhere else is 4% or less- in total you are looking at about 380,000.
‘Bears’ you are making the team a partial Sydney/Australian entity which why would NZers want a transplanted team that even Central coast didn’t want?

Pasifika Bear's team not based on race
It's based on where the games will be played
NZ can get extra Games live at NZ stadium's
Cause NZ 2 . Not big enough for stand alone team
I'm sure players. Juniors from All over south pacific Oceania. Would jump love the opportunity to play NRL. Live in Sydney
Travel All over The pacific. Australia NZ
Living the dream

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Pasifika Bear's team not based on race
It's based on where the games will be played
NZ can get extra Games live at NZ stadium's
Cause NZ 2 . Not big enough for stand alone team
I'm sure players. Juniors from All over south pacific Oceania. Would jump love the opportunity to play NRL. Live in Sydney
Travel All over The pacific. Australia NZ
Living the dream

Nah. A Pasifika side in Nz is dead in the water outside of Auckland. And probably dead there too because the Warriors have those fans already

 

[The Great Dane]

Cake Tin isn’t that bad used to regularly go to Hurricanes games mid 2000s (plus whenever the Warriors/Kiwis were in town). Behind the posts and side on are still pretty comparable to what most NRL grounds are like, found it better than Mcdonald Jones, both Dragons WIN, points bet, SCG and better than Accor which get plenty of games. Also very accessible by train and CBD (similar to if Sydney had a stadium 10min walk from Central station).
In terms of ‘not being a sporting town’ think can be a bit false, yes they can be fickle with local teams but will certainly jump on a bandwagon and the lions (NPC) and Saints (NBL) are consistently well supported comparatively. Usually sell very well when national teams play.
Can see below the ground isn’t that far from the seating comparatively for a circular stadium
View attachment 83813

Proximity of the side line to the field doesn't change the fact that it's an oval and will always be an oval. That might fly in NZ, but it simply isn't up to the standards expected in the NRL anymore and we shouldn't be lowering those standards.

On their reputation; it may be unfair, but it is what it is.

 

[The Great Dane]

Why are you so excessively argumentative?

Not taking your word as writ isn't the same as being 'excessively argumentative'.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Proximity of the side line to the field doesn't change the fact that it's an oval and will always be an oval. That might fly in NZ, but it simply isn't up to the standards expected in the NRL anymore and we shouldn't be lowering those standards.

On their reputation; it may be unfair, but it is what it is.

I’d accept that if 75% of NRL teams had a better facility but they don’t

 

[Perth Red]

Proximity of the side line to the field doesn't change the fact that it's an oval and will always be an oval. That might fly in NZ, but it simply isn't up to the standards expected in the NRL anymore and we shouldn't be lowering those standards.

On their reputation; it may be unfair, but it is what it is.

accor, cough cough

 

[SpaceMonkey]

accor, cough cough

Definitely worse than the caketin