Can Toulouse survive?

[Perth Red]

You’ve got to be fed up that TO got relegated. RL misses a trick - surprise, surprise. The lack of foresight isn’t stunning anymore, it’s just depressing. The World Cup heading to France, what an opportunity to build interest ahead of that to maximise exposure and build the international game. I realise it’s tough if you are a victim of a bigger picture approach, but in all honesty, the poor performance of some clubs should not deprive the entire sport of moving forward, surviving even. As a Bradford lad, I’m not taking any crap from any other clubs supporters about that. Bradford is where it is because of poor decision-making, end of - so are other clubs who feel they have a Devine right to be in super league. TO should have been given a relegation exemption for one year and been allowed to have a fighting chance.

why? What makes them different to any other promoted club? I mean if they were adding signifi to a media deal increase then yeh there may be justification for the greater good, but they aren’t so why should they be exempt? and I say that as some who was really hoping they’d stay up As they have potential and could long term help the international game development. Rules are in place, it becomes a slippery slope when you favour one club over another in a competition, you can’t have p&r for some and licenses for others.

 

[Northern]

I understand what you’re saying, but I think one year would have been fair, if expansion is a genuine desire, and I’m not 100% clear on that, but personally I think that is only way we’ll keep anywhere near pace with the Southern Hemisphere. I get the feeling the World Cup in France is such a huge, maybe the last opportunity for many years to develop the game internationally in Europe. I’m afraid relegation after one season may reduce likelihood of a tv deal sponsorship even further.

 

[Perth Red]

I understand what you’re saying, but I think one year would have been fair, if expansion is a genuine desire, and I’m not 100% clear on that, but personally I think that is only way we’ll keep anywhere near pace with the Southern Hemisphere. I get the feeling the World Cup in France is such a huge, maybe the last opportunity for many years to develop the game internationally in Europe. I’m afraid relegation after one season may reduce likelihood of a tv deal sponsorship even further.

If expansion is the main goal we shouldn’t have p&r at all. But you can’t have different rules for different teams based on their location When relegation is at stake.

 

[Tigers1986]

Catalans were given a 3-year exemption, no? Toulouse should have been afforded the same opportunity. League in England is struggling and this narrow minded approach to keep it "traditional" is going to further impact upon it.

The solution, for mine, is 14 teams and a licensing system where teams in the Championship can still attain 'promotion' of sorts over a 3-year cycle that considers a range of factors - on-field results, gate revenue, sponsorship, etc. That would provide a huge meal ticket for TV money and other finances if marketed correctly, which, I doubt the RFL knows how to do.

Under the current system, the promoted team is odds on to go down immediately. London, Toronto, Leigh, Toulouse. It's an awful trend. The Super 8's was a somewhat sustainable model for "fairness" if the idea of P/R needed to be kept, and may need to be revisited in a new format.

Hull FC, Wakefield, Warrington, Toulouse, Leigh, Featherstone, Halifax and Batley would compete under the old system. Would be a true test for the credentials for the next season.

 

[Perth Red]

Again I ask why is Toulouse more valuable to growth of SL? what if it was london who misses out on promotion? English RL history is littered with failed clubs, both heartland and expansion.
A 14 club licensed system would be better but there has to be something below that’s worth playing for, and some sort of driver for a club that sits at the bottom of SL for years in a row, or we will lose the lower divisions, and they are far more national than SL is!

licensing doesn’t necessarily lead to the right clubs being in the comp, look at the nrl and the fact that a decade after being ready there is still no perth in the comp. Whilst sht clubs bumble along safe in the knowledge they can limp along with no jeopardy.

 

[Coastbloke]

In a perfect world French Clubs shouldn’t need to join SL to join the big time..

France is the 8th biggest economy in the world. Surely there’s some Euros in the France’s sporting world for rugby league?

The game in France needs some business minded go getters with contacts in the corporate world. Show these people what rugby league is capable off (Origins, Tests, Grand finals etc) and convince them that 35,000 French rugby league players are keen to jump up a level..

snuggle up to a few French media moguls. Throw a few ideas around. Get them excited for the game..

France needs this, but to a lesser extent there must some sort of possibility in the US and Canada as well..

If Australian soccer could turn the NSL into the A League (let’s face it, they did have ‘some’ golden years lol) then France can do the same with rugby league.

 

[Perth Red]

In a perfect world French Clubs shouldn’t need to join SL to join the big time..

France is the 8th biggest economy in the world. Surely there’s some Euros in the France’s sporting world for rugby league?

The game in France needs some business minded go getters with contacts in the corporate world. Show these people what rugby league is capable off (Origins, Tests, Grand finals etc) and convince them that 35,000 French rugby league players are keen to jump up a level..

snuggle up to a few French media moguls. Throw a few ideas around. Get them excited for the game..

France needs this, but to a lesser extent there must some sort of possibility in the US and Canada as well..

If Australian soccer could turn the NSL into the A League (let’s face it, they did have ‘some’ golden years lol) then France can do the same with rugby league.

Problem is, like in England, rl is played in small handful of towns a long way from Frances power base. Add in that union dominates the rich lists and the fact soccer sucks up most of the money, media interest and sports interest and it’s a hard battle to get rl anywhere near a professional level on its own in France. ideally we’d have three well financed clubs in SL with a much better jnr development system that was not only producing players for those three clubs but for english clubs as well. Just hard to see where the money comes from to achieve it.

 

[Tigers1986]

Again I ask why is Toulouse more valuable to growth of SL? what if it was london who misses out on promotion? English RL history is littered with failed clubs, both heartland and expansion.
A 14 club licensed system would be better but there has to be something below that’s worth playing for, and some sort of driver for a club that sits at the bottom of SL for years in a row, or we will lose the lower divisions, and they are far more national than SL is!

licensing doesn’t necessarily lead to the right clubs being in the comp, look at the nrl and the fact that a decade after being ready there is still no perth in the comp. Whilst sht clubs bumble along safe in the knowledge they can limp along with no jeopardy.

Because it's not a suburb of Wigan or a township in Wakefield. The M62 corridor needs to expand.

The solution I think is a revamped Super 8s as that was, to me, a fairer, more balanced system. Still gives the Championship sides something to attain for (chance of promotion) and see if they are ready for the step up to prevent the immediate drop back that has been seen frequently.

What does Perth have to do with the SL? Get over it, it's not happening anytime soon.

 

[Perth Red]

Because it's not a suburb of Wigan or a township in Wakefield. The M62 corridor needs to expand.

The solution I think is a revamped Super 8s as that was, to me, a fairer, more balanced system. Still gives the Championship sides something to attain for (chance of promotion) and see if they are ready for the step up to prevent the immediate drop back that has been seen frequently.

What does Perth have to do with the SL? Get over it, it's not happening anytime soon.

You still haven’t answered how them not being near the m62 makes them more valuable. there ,ay be an argument it creates a different perception of Superleague to sponsors but that’s a very hard thing to prove, and why Having two French clubs instead of one would create a different perception. Personally I’d rather Toulouse in than Leigh as I think they have more chance of becoming a strong SL club but I don’t see a massive shift in SL revenue depending on which one of them is in the comp.

re perth, you’ve made my point lol: It’s an example that licensing isn’t the answer to expansion that some seem to think It is. You could argue that licensing is actually worse at expanding a competition to new markets.
At least with p&r if I want to buy a club and get it into SL there is clear opportunity to do that. There isn’t any opprtunity in licensing other than hoping one day the comp decides to expand.

 

[Tigers1986]

Well, I did, because it's expanding away from a dwindling market where teams are overconcentrated, diluting the fanbase.

You'll also see that I said a renewed Super 8's model would be the most feasible. Still have P/R between Championship & League 1 (gap isn't that dramatic), but the 8's system allows for the top 4 of the championship to have an actual test against SL opponents and see if they're worthy of going up. I liked it cos the teams out of the race for the finals had something to sustain them, rather than coasting to season end when there was nothing to play for

 

[Perth Red]

Well, I did, because it's expanding away from a dwindling market where teams are overconcentrated, diluting the fanbase.

You'll also see that I said a renewed Super 8's model would be the most feasible. Still have P/R between Championship & League 1 (gap isn't that dramatic), but the 8's system allows for the top 4 of the championship to have an actual test against SL opponents and see if they're worthy of going up. I liked it cos the teams out of the race for the finals had something to sustain them, rather than coasting to season end when there was nothing to play for

That would only be an issue for the clubs impacted, but I don't see Leigh impacting Wigans supporter base, for example. I don't mind the middle 8's to keep interest though it is incredibly stressful for everyone!

Will be interesting to see which way IMG push it and if the clubs agree.

 

[Tigers1986]

That would only be an issue for the clubs impacted, but I don't see Leigh impacting Wigans supporter base, for example. I don't mind the middle 8's to keep interest though it is incredibly stressful for everyone!

Will be interesting to see which way IMG push it and if the clubs agree.

Since you are more "with it" in this context, and I'm generally curious, do you happen to have the average crowd fixtures for each club (sans Magic Weekend?)

12 teams, 22 round loop, plus Super 8's for 29 games a season. Top 5 playoffs for the SL trophy, Million Pound playoff for the 12th SL spot. That may be an issue fixture wise...27 games this season yeah? I think that was the bane of contention with the 8's last time

 

[Perth Red]

Since you are more "with it" in this context, and I'm generally curious, do you happen to have the average crowd fixtures for each club (sans Magic Weekend?)

12 teams, 22 round loop, plus Super 8's for 29 games a season. Top 5 playoffs for the SL trophy, Million Pound playoff for the 12th SL spot. That may be an issue fixture wise...27 games this season yeah? I think that was the bane of contention with the 8's last time

Only ref I can find is Wiki so unsure how accurate

2022 Super League season - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[England87]

The future of rugby league is investment in France.

It is NOT pseudo international sides from the Pacific and the rest of Europe with blokes born and bred in Wigan and Western Sydney.

Super League needs to be EUROPEAN. Catalans & Toulouse exempt from relegation. Yes, that is not 'fair' to the Widnes and Workington's of the world but who really cares outside of the flat cappers who barely follow the sport to begin with.

Eventually the TV money will come but there needs to be a genuine commitment from the game to the potential broadcasters and streaming platforms.

There is NO reason why a guaranteed 4 - 8 year schedule of 2 teams locked into top flight rugby plus annual test matches would not work.

If France are challenging against the big 3 in front of 20,000 in the likes of Avignon & Bordeaux then the game has essentially guarantied its future as an international product.

This starts and ends with Toulouse Olympique as far as I am concerned.

 

[Perth Red]

The future of rugby league is investment in France.

It is NOT pseudo international sides from the Pacific and the rest of Europe with blokes born and bred in Wigan and Western Sydney.

Super League needs to be EUROPEAN. Catalans & Toulouse exempt from relegation. Yes, that is not 'fair' to the Widnes and Workington's of the world but who really cares outside of the flat cappers who barely follow the sport to begin with.

Eventually the TV money will come but there needs to be a genuine commitment from the game to the potential broadcasters and streaming platforms.

There is NO reason why a guaranteed 4 - 8 year schedule of 2 teams locked into top flight rugby plus annual test matches would not work.

If France are challenging against the big 3 in front of 20,000 in the likes of Avignon & Bordeaux then the game has essentially guarantied its future as an international product.

This starts and ends with Toulouse Olympique as far as I am concerned.

Problem is for France to be a tier 1 strength they would need around 75-100+ players at SL level if you look at NZ eligible numbers in NRL. Because of the reliant on overseas players there'd be around 18 in each French club that was placed in SL and probably only 10 or so of the starters. I'm not convinced we will see much difference in strength of the international team unless they got lucky and unearthed some real world class individuals in key positions

 

[England87]

I respectfully disagree PR.

They need about 40. Similar to Italians and Argentinians in top level European Rugby working simultaneously with their club and a high performance unit attached to the National team similar to the Pumas.

Currently I would say France have about 15-20 players that I would consider up to a 'first grade standard'.

In regards to genuine world class talent - its slim pickings.

However Fages, Morgue, Gigot, Garcia, Julian, Bousquet, Yaha & Navarette would make any NRL teams top 30*

*Except the Panthers haha

 

[Perth Red]

I respectfully disagree PR.

They need about 40. Similar to Italians and Argentinians in top level European Rugby working simultaneously with their club and a high performance unit attached to the National team similar to the Pumas.

Currently I would say France have about 15-20 players that I would consider up to a 'first grade standard'.

In regards to genuine world class talent - its slim pickings.

However Fages, Morgue, Gigot, Garcia, Julian, Bousquet, Yaha & Navarette would make any NRL teams top 30*

*Except the Panthers haha

To get the cream though you need a fair depth of milk. I totally agree the more French clubs in SL and the more French players exposed to Ft training and harder competition can only benefit the french team but I doubt adding Toulouse in makes much difference. Adding Catalans in has really made zero difference to the competitiveness of the french national team. Even to get 40 good ones would take 4 teams in all likelihood.

 

[England87]

It is a very small sample size to judge the French national team since Catalans came into the league as I would only judge them since 2015/16 when Catalans really set up there academy and started bringing in talent from Villeneuve, the Aude region and east of Avignon.

Before hand the Catalans team was essentially 80% imports with no genuine first grade standard options in key positions outside of Thomas Bosc.

The depth of squad has improved remarkably in the last 4 years. This is also due to Toulouse's commitment to junior development. Arguably more so than Catalans.

Don't you think Toulouse in Super League long term would fast track that development?

Il put it to you like this. Five years ago if the French national team played in the Super League as a club side they would probably finish dead last. Now they would be a playoff team at worst.

 

[Perth Red]

Yes I think it would help, but I dont think it would change the national sides competitiveness as much as we'd like. I'd still rather see Toulouse in SL than Leigh though! Catalans have done a great job becoming an asset to SL and no reason Toulouse couldn't do the same given time. Far more likely than leigh that's for sure.

 

[England87]

100%. Leigh offer absolutely nothing except for an owner with enough cash to make them relevant. I used to play against there juniors at academy / junior level and we would towel them up*. There juniors couldn't get a run at Wigan St Patricks let alone Wigan (Leigh is a shitty suburb in Wigan)

*I was a fat and slow backrower that played a handful of minutes for Salford juniors. Not a humble brag