Central Coast Bears NRL Bid.

[taipan]

What about regional NSW, Adelaide and Perth?

You cannot have them in an 18 team completion that has 2 in Brisbane, 2 in NZ, 9 in Sydney, 1 in Newcastle, 1 in ACT, 1 in Townsville and 1 on the Gold Coast.

Can you honestly see Brookvale and Kogarah getting the upgrades needed to have a 21st century stadium that isn't an embarrassment to the game?

Brookvale gives the game a bad reputation and Manly don't have enough fans and territory to survive another 30 years.

Our best bet is to have Roosters play 8 at SFS and 4 at Central Coast, with Manly relocating to Adelaide.

Southern Sydney doesn't need 3 teams. Put the Sharks in Perth. West Coast Sharks. Dragons can play 8 games at SFS and 4 at Wollongong, with a grandstand built on the eastern terrace to make it a quality ground. South Sydney can play 6 at SFS and 6 at Parramatta Stadium. Having games played at actual stadiums will grow crowds and give the game credibility.

Regional NSW may repeat may attract the crowds ,but sponsorship would be a problem.And regional NSW is not like regional Qld.
Adelaide is years down the line.Who are the backers and sponsors with wads of cash, ready to come on board?
\
Who says you can't have more than 18 teams in the future.? Who says Sydney can't get off their a*se and the 9 clubs have better stadiums, more fans and more juniors in the future?
The State Govt has a fair idea about Sydney's spread and getting to understand the sporting needs of areas.

With due respect putting any team, including the Sharks into Perth solves nothing.It's absolute bollocks to assume fans will follow their team en masse if relocated,especially if the club is financially viable.North Sydney fans have not jumped onto other teams,Joint venture teams have not had big increases in numbers and certainly juniors are hardly increasing.
Flicking Manly leaving the whole area nth of Sydney a vacuum,WTF,and I'm no lover of Manly.

You have zero idea about Dragon's fans playing 8 at the SFS ,that's TBH ludicrous.Gee some have the sh*ts about games at Wollongong ,whilst others complain about Jubilee.
And having decent stadiums at actual home bases, will grow crowds far more than spreading them over the countryside.
Then again we have the GC with a big area, juniors and a great stadium, but mainly has ordinary crowds.
The Broncos the most profitable club in a major city of 2m is carrying on like a basket case, and gets 28k in a 52k stadium.We can argue any way, comparing to Sydney clubs.
The only clubs that can really hold its head up high is Newcastle and Cowboys.

Sorry mate ,you cannot keep whiteanting your major base.We have had a club flicked ,and 4 clubs amalgamate.Sydney has done it's part and it hasn't achieved the desired effect of huge crowds and big increase in juniors.Has given AFL a leg up,I'm sure you're OK with that.

 

[taipan]

they haven’t attracted any fans from those areas looking at their membership numbers!

Which goes once again to prove my point.When the Bears were flicked, their fans did not jump on board to other clubs and created a vacuum in that area.They didn't go to Manly or the Tigers.
Thank you linesmen ,thank you ballboys.

This utopian belief that teams relocating or being flicked or merged will encourage growths Olympic class bollocks.
The answer lies in facilities with cover at the home bases.

 

[siv]

well they should be! The point of taking over ns and cc should be partly to build their supporter base and give rl fans in those areas a club they feel they can follow actively and the kids a club they can relate to and dream of playing for one day. Otherwise what’s the point?

No they are only interested in their long term viability in Sydney and are quite happy to see teams booted out and claim their juniors by stealth

 

[Perth Red]

Which goes once again to prove my point.When the Bears were flicked, their fans did not jump on board to other clubs and created a vacuum in that area.They didn't go to Manly or the Tigers.
Thank you linesmen ,thank you ballboys.

This utopian belief that teams relocating or being flicked or merged will encourage growths Olympic class bollocks.
The answer lies in facilities with cover at the home bases.

which is maybe the lesson to be learnt, you have to do actually do something g not just hope?

 

[taipan]

which is maybe the lesson to be learnt, you have to do actually do something g not just hope?

On the contrary, you have argued the point ,because I through work marketing (not mates BTW ) but who worked for separate companies and were Bear supporters ,flicked the code, when they were flicked.You jumped on board telling me to"grow up".
Yet you now concede that the Bear's fans did not go to the Roosters.
So doing something by removing them, did in reality achieve SFA.Unless of course one can show me where huge numbers drifted over to Manly or the Tigers ,and where their junior numbers jumped dramatically .
I am more than willing to concede ,if one can show me removal, is the be all and works magnificently in a competitive Sydney market.So far no one as.

 

[T-Boon]

With due respect putting any team, including the Sharks into Perth solves nothing.It's absolute bollocks to assume fans will follow their team en masse if relocated,especially if the club is financially viable.North Sydney fans have not jumped onto other teams,Joint venture teams have not had big increases in numbers and certainly juniors are hardly increasing.
Flicking Manly leaving the whole area nth of Sydney a vacuum,WTF,and I'm no lover of Manly.

Most fans of sydney clubs who watch on TV each week dont go to a single game all season. So the location of the team should not make all that much difference to those fans.
The Bears are actually trying to become a relocation club. They are arguing that their NS fans would in fact reingage even if the Bears are playing from out of some other place.
A few fans of, say, Cronulla or Penrith would be so heart broken that they would not get over it and would completely walk away. That is sad, but the question is: a) can it be done in a way that minimises those to only a few thousand or less ? and b) is it worth losing those fans for what you get in return which is a whole city to yourself ?

 

[T-Boon]

The best bet would be to move the West Tigers to Western Australia gradually.
Start by rename them the Western Tigers (this is more traditional for Western Suburbs anyway).
Then next move 4 games to Perth.
The NRL brings in salary cap bonus for any club who moves 6 or more games from Sydney to expansion area.
Then Western Tigers move 6 games.
Then 8.
Then you have a Perth team.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Ok, so how big ultimately do you see the NRL growing to?

How many teams would be the "end state" for top tier expansion?

I think the logistics would limit it to 18. Foxtel want each fixture to be played in a unique timeslot so that viewers can watch every game live. A 9th game can be played on a Monday night without disrupting the current schedule. A 10th game would require 1 on Thursday, 2 on Friday, 3 on Saturday, 3 on Sunday and 1 on Monday. A weekly 2pm Sunday game wouldn't be a huge ratings drawer for Foxtel.

The current deal with Foxtel extends to 2027, so any plan to add another 2 fixtures per round would probably require their approval. There wouldn't be enough money coming in through the current deal to support another 4 teams before 2027.

Long term, I don't think commercial TV or pay TV will be in a position to support a 20 team competition. They're a deprecating asset and what benefits one is harmful to the other. Foxtel won't want 2 games played at the same time whereas Ch9 would be in favour, as it'll allow them to select which game is broadcast into each market based on ratings, like Ch7 does with AwFuL.

Theoretically, a 2nd NZ team could lead to a weekly 4pm NZST game played on a Sunday and beamed into Australia at 2pm, but it probably wouldn't command much money from Sky Sport.

 

[flippikat]

I think the logistics would limit it to 18. Foxtel want each fixture to be played in a unique timeslot so that viewers can watch every game live. A 9th game can be played on a Monday night without disrupting the current schedule. A 10th game would require 1 on Thursday, 2 on Friday, 3 on Saturday, 3 on Sunday and 1 on Monday. A weekly 2pm Sunday game wouldn't be a huge ratings drawer for Foxtel.

The current deal with Foxtel extends to 2027, so any plan to add another 2 fixtures per round would probably require their approval. There wouldn't be enough money coming in through the current deal to support another 4 teams before 2027.

Long term, I don't think commercial TV or pay TV will be in a position to support a 20 team competition. They're a deprecating asset and what benefits one is harmful to the other. Foxtel won't want 2 games played at the same time whereas Ch9 would be in favour, as it'll allow them to select which game is broadcast into each market based on ratings, like Ch7 does with AwFuL.

Theoretically, a 2nd NZ team could lead to a weekly 4pm NZST game played on a Sunday and beamed into Australia at 2pm, but it probably wouldn't command much money from Sky Sport.

The NRL is set in Brisbane 2 being 17th team, and making noises about NZ 2 being 18th soon afterwards.

Taking that as read, the next step is crucial. Perth & Adelaide remain teamless, but are markets too big to ignore in the long run.

Adding them both takes the competition to 20 teams, which imo is the absolute limit - and even then it opens the door to simultaneous kickoffs & having 4-5 really dire teams each season. Even the AFL has been hesitant about gong past 18 teams, and they already have overlapping games!

Honestly, I think the time to consider relocation or demotion of Sydney clubs may come soon after we get to 18.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Who says you can't have more than 18 teams in the future.?

20 teams will require significant investment from the game's broadcasters.

Can you honestly see commercial TV and pay TV pumping an extra $52 million per year onto the amount they're already paying to support the NRL grant that 4 new teams will require?

Streaming is the future and it's killing commercial TV and forcing Foxtel to cut costs just to survive. There is no local streaming giant interested in forking out the funds required to support our game at the level its players and clubs now enjoy.

Who says Sydney can't get off their a*se and the 9 clubs have better stadiums, more fans and more juniors in the future?
The State Govt has a fair idea about Sydney's spread and getting to understand the sporting needs of areas.

The NSW gov just shelved plans to rebuild the 3rd stadium that was promised in exchange for the rights to host the NRL GF in Sydney until 2040. The NRL has no more bargaining power and there's nothing to gain from rebuilding Brookvale, Penrith, Endeavor, Campbelltown and Kogarah. New grounds at these venues won't bring more high money drawing events to the city, which is the point of funding them. NSW gov funded the rebuild of Parramatta and SFS because it guaranteed they'll keep the GF and help secure more RU Tests and soccer internationals.

With due respect putting any team, including the Sharks into Perth solves nothing.It's absolute bollocks to assume fans will follow their team en masse if relocated,especially if the club is financially viable.

It's about bringing new fans into the game from Perth, adding value to the broadcast rights. Ratings in Melbourne for GFs, Origin and Tests have increased by a huge margin since the Storm were introduced. If we want to command even higher ratings for these fixtures then we'll need teams in Adelaide and Perth to raise the profile of the game. AwFuL's fumbleflag is pulling ahead of our centrepiece because it has a base in all 5 major population centres.

North Sydney fans have not jumped onto other teams,Joint venture teams have not had big increases in numbers and certainly juniors are hardly increasing.
Flicking Manly leaving the whole area nth of Sydney a vacuum,WTF,and I'm no lover of Manly.

Rusted on fans aren't going to jump to another team, which is why keeping the brand alive in another market is vital. Fumbleball's Swans still have old South Melbourne fans based in the City of Fumbles buying memberships.

Manly is a tiny suburb and represents a small segment of the northern Sydney area. Their shit crowds and TV ratings prove it. Getting them out of that market and handing its catchment over to Roosters at NRL level and Bears at NSW Cup level will help the game get more kids playing and watching the game.

You have zero idea about Dragon's fans playing 8 at the SFS ,that's TBH ludicrous.Gee some have the sh*ts about games at Wollongong ,whilst others complain about Jubilee.

Then relocate them to Adelaide. If they couldn't be f**ked travelling to a quality stadium and hate the one they're based at then they're unviable as an NRL entity. It goes a long way to explaining why the club was on death's door in the 90s and had to merge with Illawarra. Brian Smith said the club had the stench of death, so he went to the Eels.

And having decent stadiums at actual home bases, will grow crowds far more than spreading them over the countryside.

The NSW gov would be hoping that the 9 Sydney clubs take their games to SFS, Parramatta and Stadium Australia. If St George were to run to them and ask for a new ground at Kogarah they would be told to play at the SFS. The best St George can hope for is the NSW gov agreeing to build a grandstand on the eastern terrace of Wollongong Stadium.

Then again we have the GC with a big area, juniors and a great stadium, but mainly has ordinary crowds.
The Broncos the most profitable club in a major city of 2m is carrying on like a basket case, and gets 28k in a 52k stadium.We can argue any way, comparing to Sydney clubs.
The only clubs that can really hold its head up high is Newcastle and Cowboys.

Sorry mate ,you cannot keep whiteanting your major base.We have had a club flicked ,and 4 clubs amalgamate.Sydney has done it's part and it hasn't achieved the desired effect of huge crowds and big increase in juniors.Has given AFL a leg up,I'm sure you're OK with that.

Sydney's existing teams will have no choice but to learn how to swim or sink. That means growing their supporter base so they can make more money from gate receipts and memberships. The bigger their fanbase the more they'll command from advertisers. The population and interest in the game just isn't strong enough to support 9 teams. That's what it comes down to. Demand vs supply.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Which goes once again to prove my point.When the Bears were flicked, their fans did not jump on board to other clubs and created a vacuum in that area.They didn't go to Manly or the Tigers.
Thank you linesmen ,thank you ballboys.

This utopian belief that teams relocating or being flicked or merged will encourage growths Olympic class bollocks.
The answer lies in facilities with cover at the home bases.

Weren't the Bears in the process of relocating to Gosford because their base at North Sydney was unviable?

Northern Sydney is not RL mad like Brisbane and Western Sydney.

 

[flippikat]

20 teams will require significant investment from the game's broadcasters.

Can you honestly see commercial TV and pay TV pumping an extra $52 million per year onto the amount they're already paying to support the NRL grant that 4 new teams will require?

Streaming is the future and it's killing commercial TV and forcing Foxtel to cut costs just to survive. There is no local streaming giant interested in forking out the funds required to support our game at the level its players and clubs now enjoy.


The NSW gov just shelved plans to rebuild the 3rd stadium that was promised in exchange for the rights to host the NRL GF in Sydney until 2040. The NRL has no more bargaining power and there's nothing to gain from rebuilding Brookvale, Penrith, Endeavor, Campbelltown and Kogarah. New grounds at these venues won't bring more high money drawing events to the city, which is the point of funding them. NSW gov funded the rebuild of Parramatta and SFS because it guaranteed they'll keep the GF and help secure more RU Tests and soccer internationals.



It's about bringing new fans into the game from Perth, adding value to the broadcast rights. Ratings in Melbourne for GFs, Origin and Tests have increased by a huge margin since the Storm were introduced. If we want to command even higher ratings for these fixtures then we'll need teams in Adelaide and Perth to raise the profile of the game. AwFuL's fumbleflag is pulling ahead of our centrepiece because it has a base in all 5 major population centres.


Rusted on fans aren't going to jump to another team, which is why keeping the brand alive in another market is vital. Fumbleball's Swans still have old South Melbourne fans based in the City of Fumbles buying memberships.

Manly is a tiny suburb and represents a small segment of the northern Sydney area. Their shit crowds and TV ratings prove it. Getting them out of that market and handing its catchment over to Roosters at NRL level and Bears at NSW Cup level will help the game get more kids playing and watching the game.



Then relocate them to Adelaide. If they couldn't be f**ked travelling to a quality stadium and hate the one they're based at then they're unviable as an NRL entity. It goes a long way to explaining why the club was on death's door in the 90s and had to merge with Illawarra. Brian Smith said the club had the stench of death, so he went to the Eels.


The NSW gov would be hoping that the 9 Sydney clubs take their games to SFS, Parramatta and Stadium Australia. If St George were to run to them and ask for a new ground at Kogarah they would be told to play at the SFS. The best St George can hope for is the NSW gov agreeing to build a grandstand on the eastern terrace of Wollongong Stadium.


Sydney's existing teams will have no choice but to learn how to swim or sink. That means growing their supporter base so they can make more money from gate receipts and memberships. The bigger their fanbase the more they'll command from advertisers. The population and interest in the game just isn't strong enough to support 9 teams. That's what it comes down to. Demand vs supply.

Mate, I wish I could like that more than once.
You didn't mention another aspect - transport planning & funding.

If the NRL agree to a more centralised stadium strategy then that's a compelling argument for the state Government to invest more money in improving transport to those 2 or 3 venues - especially public transport.

If two or three clubs share a ground, it builds a better business case to improve transport to that ground than if each club has their own venue.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Ok, so how big ultimately do you see the NRL growing to?

How many teams would be the "end state" for top tier expansion?

With good management it can get bigger...its been held back for 20 Years

 

[LeagueXIII]

Weren't the Bears in the process of relocating to Gosford because their base at North Sydney was unviable?

Northern Sydney is not RL mad like Brisbane and Western Sydney.

The council were an issue for the Bears, the ground was heritage listed so they couldnt do anything to maximise revenue so sort building another ground with corporate boxes etc they chose Gosford think Hornsby may have been another option.
They were pulling good crowds averaging 15k plus.

 

[flippikat]

With good management it can get bigger...its been held back for 20 Years

That doesn't specifically answer the question.

Again, can I ask- in your opinion how many clubs can/should our top tier realistically have?

 

[siv]

That doesn't specifically answer the question.

Again, can I ask- in your opinion how many clubs can/should our top tier realistically have?

I beleive the magic number is 18

Grouped into 2 pools of 9 regional and 9 Sydney where pools play each home/away n 1 season(16 rounds) and opposite pool(9 rounds) home/away over 2 years

Giving the NRL 25 rounds and 9 games every weekend. With 8 team finals series

 

[taipan]

Most fans of sydney clubs who watch on TV each week dont go to a single game all season. So the location of the team should not make all that much difference to those fans.
The Bears are actually trying to become a relocation club. They are arguing that their NS fans would in fact reingage even if the Bears are playing from out of some other place.
A few fans of, say, Cronulla or Penrith would be so heart broken that they would not get over it and would completely walk away. That is sad, but the question is: a) can it be done in a way that minimises those to only a few thousand or less ? and b) is it worth losing those fans for what you get in return which is a whole city to yourself ?

One can use the argument for Brisbane Broncos,with a population of 2 million. So you are correct the location shouldn't make that much of a difference to Brisbane.Join up with the GC, then they may fill the Suncorp stadium.Or indeed do the reverse .
Well the Bears have SFA following now in the Nth thanks to their being flicked ,so desperation is their only chance.

Your last paragraph shows your complete ignorance as to what Sharks and Penrith fans would feel.Not even worthy of a response.You'd have to live outside of Sydney .Your description as being a" would be upset is indicative of that view. few"

Again if you can show me where any loss of a major NRL club or joint venture has been a boom for crowds and juniors ,let me know.

 

[taipan]

Weren't the Bears in the process of relocating to Gosford because their base at North Sydney was unviable?

Northern Sydney is not RL mad like Brisbane and Western Sydney.

Yes they were, but my understanding they were still going to play games at NSO.And you know why they didn't end up there, was to do with the CC Ground completion date, I understand.
The joint venture with Manly was an absolute disaster, showing clubs' fans steer clear.
North Sydney is far less rl mad ,than it was.It had more people interested in rl before they were flicked ,than the Storm did for starters.

Brisbane may well be rl mad, but they sure as hell don"t fill Suncorp ,when they have 2m people .Average 28-30k at best.

One could use a person to person comparison.
Sydney has 5m people.Sydney with 2 1/2 times(of Brisbane) the population has 9 clubs if they say average 15k.That's 145k, nearly 5 times what Brisbane gets .And Brisbane is rl mad on that basis?
And Sydney's population is not going to decline .

Brisbane is a big club and I respect that, but this BS that traditional clubs that service areas of Sydney and get supporters who attend, watch on TV, buy merchandise are less worthwhile, yet they assist our TV deals(because that's where the major ratings) are a waste of space is disingenuous.Further noting included in Sydney figures are clubs which ATM need better facilities at their home grounds.

The push for relocation in the main ,comes from people outside of Sydney, and it sticks out like dogs' b*lls.

I repeat the code once they get facilities up to scratch which is being attended to can support 18 teams, and who know with population growth more.

 

[Santino Patane]

I beleive the magic number is 18

Grouped into 2 pools of 9 regional and 9 Sydney where pools play each home/away n 1 season(16 rounds) and opposite pool(9 rounds) home/away over 2 years

Giving the NRL 25 rounds and 9 games every weekend. With 8 team finals series

This should never happen. It will exacerbate an unfair advantage Sydney teams already have in minimised travel.

This kind of thinking is indicative of those who still see this as a Sydney comp, not a National comp.

How’s this as a compromise then- do your divisions, but the Sydney teams need to adopt a regional area or Adelaide/Perth. A part of this they would have to take 4 home games there a year. This could work in the current model too.

Growth of the game-
Maintain the excess clubs in Sydney-
Spread the travel liability more-

Sydney fans will still have bucket loads more opportunity to watch their teams live than interstate/international team, and as a benefit their membership cost would come down.

It is probably true that further rationalisation could hurt the comp from all the anecdotal evidence I’ve heard, but Rugby League must walk the walk at the highest level in being “National”. Otherwise, in 50 years time the game will be a shell.

 

[flippikat]

I beleive the magic number is 18

Grouped into 2 pools of 9 regional and 9 Sydney where pools play each home/away n 1 season(16 rounds) and opposite pool(9 rounds) home/away over 2 years

Giving the NRL 25 rounds and 9 games every weekend. With 8 team finals series

Ok, so when the NRL puts a 2nd team in Brisbane (a given), then a 2nd team in NZ (not a dead cert, but likely given the rhetoric).. what then for Perth & Adelaide?