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Craig Field

9701

First Grade
Messages
5,400
Who wants to bet CrazyTiger is off composing another 15,000 word essay to lay on us again :lol:

I am worried six dudes jumped out of a 5 seater police car they stole shone a torch in his eyes used false ID and cohersed him into the boot of the vehicle and are currently driving him to an undisclosed location for interrogation (happens all the time when you rage against the system)
 

CrazyTiger

Juniors
Messages
1,835
1) What do you think of the Carbon tax/ETS
All for it.

2) What do you think of a mining tax.

All for it.

3) What do you think about our current levels of foreign investment.

Not a fan, we need to keep ownership of out agricultural land.

4) Would you describe yourself as a green, ALP, small L liberal, or from the far right.

ALP

PS: Without trying to be provoke you, I would suggest that your attitudes regarding drug
users reflects police attitudes. I would also suggest that our history regarding aboriginal
deaths in custody does not reflect well on police.


No it doesn’t reflect well.

Actually you failed to address a number of issues that I answered. Does that mean you
agree with me on those?


No, just means I am sick and tired of going around in circles.

Cheers

I assumed you were a right wing nutter. I was wrong. Can you answer me
one more question since you like to pull up legislation. Are you a lawyer?

Yes I agree regarding some of the issues I did not address eg: drink driving kills etc I agree with. I'm sure you know far more about shaving intelligence and I"m happy to
take your word on that. It was irrelevant to the points I was making.

I've had a look back over the thread, and I'll make some points (my essay). :) I'll have time tonight.

As for going around in circles. I agreed to disagree.
 
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Fire

First Grade
Messages
9,669
...ladies and gentleman, Elvis has ENTERED the building!!!!! :lol:

How was your fact-finding trip to Area 51 champion?
 

CrazyTiger

Juniors
Messages
1,835
CT, when did you lose your drivers licence? And under what circumstances?

I mean you either walk everywhere, or ride. Police follow you, and your nephews school wont let you near him. That, and you have a paranoia for the law and governments that even David Hicks would call insane.

To me, if you just wore your helmet without fighting for your right to get brain damage, you might be a bit more together than you normally are.

I've got a gold licence, had for almost 20 years. Never lost my licence either. Yes
I like to ride a bike, most of the time I wear a stack hat if I'm in traffic, otherwise I
am happy to run the risk. I think it is my risk to run.
 

CrazyTiger

Juniors
Messages
1,835
...ladies and gentleman, Elvis has ENTERED the building!!!!! :lol:

How was your fact-finding trip to Area 51 champion?

Very fruitful. Stay tuned :)

Keep an eye out for those terrorists. You do know that Hazem el masri has been stalking
you while wearing a burqua.
 
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CrazyTiger

Juniors
Messages
1,835
I have to much integrity to become a lawyer CT.

Alright, I've missed the football completely for this, so here goes and I haven't had
a beer yet. I think all police should be aware of the information below.


Hi Johnsy


Since you are a policeman (or have been a policeman), Let me explain why in
my opinion, shooting criminal perpetrators with a taser is more likely to result in
death than incapacitating them with a bullet to the leg. I wouldn't submit this to
the institution of engineers or the AMA just yet :), but it should serve as an adequate
lay explanation. This is not like the "law" in the way a lawyer would understand.
The laws of physics don't change, and they simply are what they are.

How to electrocute somebody

There is long established empirical evidence that 100 - 200mA through the heart
causes electrocution resulting in death. This has been confirmed by measurement
over more than the last 100 years. The human body is a fantastic conductor, current
flows via electrolytes in the blood and fluids (as opposed to free valence electrons
in a traditional conductor like copper). The only relevant resistance is the skin contact
resistance, which is a function of moisture (wet skin is a good conductor, dry skin is a poor
conductor). The level of humidity is an important factor in many electrocutions.

What does the above mean? It means that if the taser darts breach the skin and place the
electrode in contract with the flesh (as distinct from the skin), the resistance is now very low.
So at 5000V you will have very low resistance at very high currents which generally don't
cause electrocution (which is what tasers rely upon), but if sustained for to long
will cause the burning of internal organs.

The function of a taser (from an engineering perspective) is to cause convulsions. The
convulsions caused by a taser are caused by the electrical current disrupting the nervous
system which controls muscular action. Electrocution arises when the electrical current
disrupts the nervous system controlling the heartbeat. It is a small step from disrupting
the nervous system to cause convulsions to disrupting a heart beat.

How electrocution is possible at 5000V

Electricity flow in the human body is best not understood as a single current
flow of so many amps, but as a three dimensionally distributed current flow
of varying current densities. The totality of which will add to the single amount.
Additionally the resistivity of the human body (resistivity is what limits current
flow) is not homogenous and some paths will have higher resistance than other
paths. In all circumstances the longer the path the greater the resistivity,
and the lower the current density. It is thus conceivable that what seems
to amount to a high total current flow will produce low current densities in remote
body parts and particularly if the current path is a high resistivity path.

For example, a high current flow from one leg to the other will result in high current
densities through the groin, and progressively lower and lower current densities
higher up the body. It is the current density through the heart that matters,
not the total current flow.

This means that depending upon where the contact is made the current distribution
may be such that even though the total current may be several amps, in fringe locations
it may still be as little as 100-200mA.

The best way to understand this, is to think in two dimensions and extrapolate to three.
If you take a copper sheet (a traditional conductor), and pass a current through it like so:

|--------------------|
| *( +9V) *(-9V) |
|--------------------|


The current will flow via the path of least resistance, but it flows in two dimensions
, ie. it takes multiple paths of least resistance. What is significant here, is that the
current diminishes the further away you get from most direct path (linear point to
point). This is roughly an inverse square law. What does he mean? You can put
5000V across your leg and still have 200mA go through your heart.

What else may occur if you are subjected to 5000V

Whilst the intention of a taser is to deliver a high current payload which will not
electrocute, the high current payload does have the potential to cause burning of
internal organs.

E (energy) = IxIxRxt (E is energy, I is current, R is resistance and t is time).

To summarise what that means, the burning potential is proportional to the square of the
current and the duration of the current, which is why taser currents must be limited to very
short duration. (In public power systems (eg an 11kV transformer) when instances of
high voltage electrical contact occurs usually internal organs aren't burnt (although sometimes
they do) because the protection systems interrupt within a ~ 150ms. In an ideal
world this would all occur in a few milliseconds, but the mechanical switching used
just simply takes longer.)

A taser is akin to an electronic interruptor (presumably a capacitor being
discharged in no more than a burst of few milii seconds (I would hope). However, if multiple
applications are applied, the heating affect is cumulative and it is possible that perhaps
internal burning will occur.

I don't know how a taser works, but I would suggest that on a single fire, it is delivering
successive bursts. The heating effect of these bursts is cumulative, and if there is too
many of them then internal burning is possible. This is what sets it apart from an
electric fence. A cow isn't silly enough to come back for another go, but the poor
bastard on the ground has no means to get away.


Death by Electric shock.

A taser delivers you a serious electric shock (even if all goes well). The moment you
receive a significant electric shock (be it from a 240V outlet, a 5000V taser or an 11kV
transformer) you should go to hospital for a heart check immediately. I assume
this is standard police procedure. These kinds of shocks have the potential to cause
arrhythmias, even in a healthy person.

The physics behind killing someone with a taser by dropping them on concrette

Tasering people of different heights is not equivalent when you are dropping them
on concrete. You need to look at a persons centre of gravity. The centre of gravity
of a tall person is higher than the centre of gravity of a average height person. This
means that when they hit the ground they have greater energy to dissipate and
higher velocity of impact. potential energy is converted to kinetic energy which
is disappaited on impact.

1/2m(v)(v) = mgh.

The above equation means that energy dissipation is proportional to the height and
mass of the victim. This means that dropping a person of the same height has more
energy to dissipate, than the person of lower mass.


taking a volunteer policeman and hitting them with 5000V

In my view it is both unethical and disingenuous of the police to publiclty promote
the safety of tasering using fit healthy volunteers in controlled idealised circumstances
backed with a raft of risk mitigation backup. In the real world, the physical condition
of the victim is unknown, and given the mobility of the victim, the accuracy of the
target taser is highly unreliable. As a consequence there is a real risk that tasering
will result in fatality. The police promotion of taser use is disingenuous.

The safety guide lines of Tasers are wrong.

Conventional wisdom would suggest that it is safer to taser away from
the heart and this is in the taser user guide lines (please correct me if I
am wrong). Tasering directly across the heart will deliver a current well
above the 100-200mA, tasering other parts of the body could well result in
lethal current densities across the heart. having said this, the safest way to
taser someone is from the shin to the thigh (lower leg).


CONCLUSION
No matter how you look at it, tasering involves significant risk of death. The
use of a fire arm at least has a deterrent effect that a taser may not have,
because people don't understand it (or they are on drugs etc). I would suggesst
being shot in the leg is a safer means of incapacitating the perpetrator than
shooting them with a taser.
 
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_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
28,409
I have no idea what a persons present/past occupation has to do with this thread.

Problem is the Police are not trained to shoot someone in the leg (could easily die by hitting the femoral artery). they are trained to hit the largest body mass, the chest. There is not one single Police force in the world who are trained to shoot in the leg. You stop the threat and the most effective way is to aim for the largest body mass.

As for tasering, how often do you get a clean shot. I imagine it's not as easy as just deciding to taser that person in the leg (between shin and thigh). What happens if the barbs don't go in (different type of clothing etc & that person is armed with a machete & on the move. Comply with Police requests and you don't get tasered, A fairly straightforward concept. How does someone be in the position that the Police have a taser drawn on you ? Walking to Woolies in a back lane @ 6pm, and the 6 plain clothed cops are bored FMD.

& when someone has a taser drawn on them, I imagine it's not as if the person is standing still with nothing within a few metre radius around them. it's not always black and white as your scenario would wish.

Walk a mile in their boots & be in a situation where you have your firearm out, then tell me it's that easy. I find it easier not to judge them so quickly.
 

CrazyTiger

Juniors
Messages
1,835
I have no idea what a persons present/past occupation has to do with this thread.

Problem is the Police are not trained to shoot someone in the leg (could easily die by hitting the femoral artery). they are trained to hit the largest body mass, the chest. There is not one single Police force in the world who are trained to shoot in the leg. You stop the threat and the most effective way is to aim for the largest body mass.

As for tasering, how often do you get a clean shot. I imagine it's not as easy as just deciding to taser that person in the leg (between shin and thigh). What happens if the barbs don't go in (different type of clothing etc & that person is armed with a machete & on the move. Comply with Police requests and you don't get tasered, A fairly straightforward concept. How does someone be in the position that the Police have a taser drawn on you ? Walking to Woolies in a back lane @ 6pm, and the 6 plain clothed cops are bored FMD.

& when someone has a taser drawn on them, I imagine it's not as if the person is standing still with nothing within a few metre radius around them. it's not always black and white as your scenario would wish.

Walk a mile in their boots & be in a situation where you have your firearm out, then tell me it's that easy. I find it easier not to judge them so quickly.
It is too easy to pull a taser. Most police are not bad. I would agree (obviously I would
never provoke a cop to the point where he pulled a taser because it could kille me).
What I'm saying is that the police don't understand how dangerous they are. I
posted a utube video I think of the guy who got tasered for stepping off the pavement
in oxford st because he failed to do what the policeman told him to do. It was a small news item since he didn't die.

The policeman involved wouldn't have shot him in the leg because that would be lunacy. He
did shoot him with a a taser though, because he doesn't understand how dangerous they
are, just like the general public.

PS: I've mentioned the law stuff because you seem to be interested in it. I'm
trying to explain that tasering someone is in many ways far more straight forward
because the laws of physics don't change.

PPS: If you are a policeman then it is very relevant, because you should understand
the significance of what you are actually doing. I got the impression that you may
have fired a taser in anger (that is an expression) so I thought your profession seemed
relevant.

The fact that you can't shoot someone and hit them completely below the knee,
is why I think it is safer to just try and shoot them in the leg instead.
 
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Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
I think the point with tasers is if it has gotten to that point, its either a taser or a bullet.

I have no problem with police using tasers is someone is resisting arrest or causing some significant criminal act. Which is how they do it now.
 

CrazyTiger

Juniors
Messages
1,835
I think the point with tasers is if it has gotten to that point, its either a taser or a bullet.

I have no problem with police using tasers is someone is resisting arrest or causing some significant criminal act. Which is how they do it now.

No. You SHOULD NEVER shoot someone with a taser for resisting arrest. That is like shooting
someone in the leg for resisting arrest. Would you endorse that?

I have no problem with the cops shooting someone if they think that person is going to kill
them or harm them in a significant way either.
 
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CrazyTiger

Juniors
Messages
1,835
F*ck yeah! Otherwise no bastard would ever be arrested you numpty!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't understand the point you are making. Tasers have only been around for a few
years. They managed to arrest people before that.

In the US they pull guns on each other with gay abandon, so using tasers isn't such
a big deal for them (they love shooting each other). A taser is a less dangerous gun.
It is like the american gun nuts have managed to sneak their crazy gun ideals into australia.

I don't like the thought of every second citizen carrying a gun. Now every cop
has a taser. Do you have any idea how easy it is to build a taser! We have just
brought a whole new genre of weaponry into australia.

Now I can't build a gun, but I can electrocute someone with a capacitor with little
or no problems at all. A crim needs one trip to jaycar, and probably a poke around on utube
without having any understanding of what he is building, and you have a serious
weapon ready to go.

Look on line. You can build anything. Google how to build a meth lab. I'm not
a chemist but I can build one with no understanding. It is a very dangerous thing
to build operate a meth lab (I've had a good look actually). Let me clarify that,
out of interest only. Meth is the craziest drug in existence as far as I know.

Building a taser is like buying a packet of tick tacks. Skip the firing aspect and
jab them with the electrodes. Why hurt your wrist with a king hit if you can
just zap em instead.
 
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