Dear Ben, time to sign the contract

[True_Believer]

my counter to your 3 rookie point is that if Hunt, Amone and Ramsey are there anyway, it’s the 4th position we are discussing. The only real experience hooker (assuming Hunt is a half) is macca. do I understand you mean he needs to be there? Or is Liddle experienced enough in your opinion?

Yeah this is where the gap actually is. But given my thoughts on a 3/4 rookie spine, I wouldn't be putting Hunt in at 9. I've commented elsewhere on why I don't think he's a full season Dummy Half (26 games, defense etc). I can't comment on Liddle as I haven't seen anything other than a few highlights on youtube. I also don't think Macca is the solution, however I think one of those needs to be in the team (Liddle only because that's his chosen position and he does have first grade experience) but having Bud on the bench to share game time in that position OR coming on in the halves and Hunt filling the Dummy Half for those periods. That is providing Bud game time and achieving my staggered approach.

this takes me to the last point. Yes, I’d prefer to risk languishing next year to build a team, to give experience etc. than I would to meander in 9-14th position, and have our next gen players move on to our rivals.

IMO I don't think the languishing would be for one year. I don't think we'd end up seeing any light at the end of the tunnel for quite a while if we continued down the path of throwing rookies in at any chance we get. I mean people on here are talking about getting junior players NRL time who aren't even playing for KOE - it's madness.

oh, additional point. Your comment on staggering is ok. But if your affecting the advancement of some players, you need to get buy in for it to work. 2 requests for release indicate that’s not happening.

You are right, but who does their decision reflect on? I say it reflects on them as people. Unable to bide their time and thinking they are better than they are. Look at Sullivan - debuted in 2021 along with the others for a few games. In 2022 had injury issues and played limited KOE and NRL due in big part to those injuries. And yet at the end of 2022 is demanding a release because he thinks he deserves a spot in the NRL? Sloan is no different. NRL appearances aside, the footage of him in KOE shows a lazy defender with little to no desire to make any effort. I mean, if I was coach of a team and someone like that was demanding a spot in the team, I'd be up front and telling him he needs to be pulling his finger out if he wants to be considered.

 

[Gourley's Socks]

It may not be them thinking they are better then they are - it may just be looking for an opportunity and recognising they're down the pecking order at the Dragons.

I know personally I'd want to test myself against the best. And if the coach has shown through words or actions that that isn't going to happen, if I've got an offer where it could then I'd be seriously examining it also.

I don't think we can just assume it's entirely arrogance.

 

[SGMax]

Cleary and Lui were staggered over a few years. From memory Cleary had been in the side for 3 years before Lui joined him on a more permanent basis.

Again, I've already pointed this out, but none of the top 8 teams have a spine with more than 1 rookie in them. At a minimum, they all had at least 1 experienced half.

Yes, exactly this. A look at the no. of appearances shows Cleary with 137 against Luai at 85....and thats in a team more settled and firing up front.

With our Fullback and 5/8th already slowly getting established Sullivan should bide his time and respect the investment the Dragons have already put into him over the years.

He will definitely get his chances with injuries to either of our halves or hooker as well as Hunt's expected involvement in the Qld team....just need patience and some luck with injuries.

 

[Crush]

The article in todays paper with Ben Hunt is good, at least he doesn’t beat around the bush and is honest.
Says he won’t play 9 for dragons because he is trying to prolong his career, hooker too physical.
Says he wants Hook as coach, if dragons start strong next year Hook will be extended, if they don’t he’ll be fired.
Says he wants McCulloch to go around again, reckons he is a smart decision maker and good for the teams middles.

It’s pretty clear that Ben is all about Ben and his mates.

 

[True_Believer]

Yes, exactly this. A look at the no. of appearances shows Cleary with 137 against Luai at 85....and thats in a team more settled and firing up front.

With our Fullback and 5/8th already slowly getting established Sullivan should bide his time and respect the investment the Dragons have already put into him over the years.

He will definitely get his chances with injuries to either of our halves or hooker as well as Hunt's expected involvement in the Qld team....just need patience and some luck with injuries.

I agree SG. I think the club definitely see Sullivan as the future and joining Amone in the halves, but he needs to be patient and take his opportunities with both hands when they come up. I would hope he'll get a bit more time in 23 with a view to becoming a more permanent fixture in 24 and 25.

On the forum here we continually compare the team to the Panthers. Cleary was super young when he debuted but I think he's a step above other young halves in the comp. He's currently 24 and has been playing since somewhere around 2017 making his debut at 19? Luai on the other hand became a permanent first grade half in 2020 - which would have made him 23.

Bud is 21 and nowhere near the level of Cleary. And if he's looking to make a step into first grade and we compare to Panthers, he's still got a couple of years of playing off the bench or sporadic appearances before he should expect to make that transition.

He needs to be patient.

 

[Illusion]

The article in todays paper with Ben Hunt is good, at least he doesn’t beat around the bush and is honest.
Says he won’t play 9 for dragons because he is trying to prolong his career, hooker too physical.
Says he wants Hook as coach, if dragons start strong next year Hook will be extended, if they don’t he’ll be fired.
Says he wants McCulloch to go around again, reckons he is a smart decision maker and good for the teams middles.

It’s pretty clear that Ben is all about Ben and his mates.

Yep it's their little bubble and they don't want anyone to interfere ......

 

[True_Believer]

It may not be them thinking they are better then they are - it may just be looking for an opportunity and recognising they're down the pecking order at the Dragons.

I know personally I'd want to test myself against the best. And if the coach has shown through words or actions that that isn't going to happen, if I've got an offer where it could then I'd be seriously examining it also.

I don't think we can just assume it's entirely arrogance.

Well isn't what you've just described actually impatience and arrogance? What makes a player think he knows better than the coach?

Edit: And to be fair, they are getting opportunities. Limited time granted, but it's not like they are wallowing in KOE for the entire season. Other clubs are going to make it seem like the opportunity of a life time. But they are going to have to essentially earn their stripes elsewhere anyway.

 

[Crush]

I agree SG. I think the club definitely see Sullivan as the future and joining Amone in the halves, but he needs to be patient and take his opportunities with both hands when they come up. I would hope he'll get a bit more time in 23 with a view to becoming a more permanent fixture in 24 and 25.

On the forum here we continually compare the team to the Panthers. Cleary was super young when he debuted but I think he's a step above other young halves in the comp. He's currently 24 and has been playing since somewhere around 2017 making his debut at 19? Luai on the other hand became a permanent first grade half in 2020 - which would have made him 23.

Bud is 21 and nowhere near the level of Cleary. And if he's looking to make a step into first grade and we compare to Panthers, he's still got a couple of years of playing off the bench or sporadic appearances before he should expect to make that transition.

He needs to be patient.

It’s probably hard for these guys to be patient when their peers are getting opportunities.
Sam Walker is 20 years old, he played QLD under 18s, Australian schoolboys etc.
Sullivan probably played with him, against him or was even a year above him.
Then you have Ben Hunt saying Sullivan needs to be patient and potentially wait until he’s 24 to get a start at halfback?
Be tough for Sullivan to hear that while watching Sam Walker at 20 start for Roosters.
Lachlan Llias start at 7 for Souths, Reece Walsh start at fullback etc etc.
Again, he would have played against these guys in juniors.

 

[True_Believer]

It’s probably hard for these guys to be patient when their peers are getting opportunities.
Sam Walker is 20 years old, he played QLD under 18s, Australian schoolboys etc.
Sullivan probably played with him, against him or was even a year above him.
Then you have Ben Hunt saying Sullivan needs to be patient and potentially wait until he’s 24 to get a start at halfback?
Be tough for Sullivan to hear that while watching Sam Walker at 20 start for Roosters.
Lachlan Llias start at 7 for Souths, Reece Walsh start at fullback etc etc.
Again, he would have played against these guys in juniors.

Agreed Crush, but he only has to look at the spine around those players and realise that Dragons aren't in that same position. Who does Walker have around him? Who does Ilias have around him? Seeing this would be frustrating but from the outside it looks super selfish and he's not looking at the bigger picture. Sloan is no different.

 

[Crush]

Agreed Crush, but he only has to look at the spine around those players and realise that Dragons aren't in that same position. Who does Walker have around him? Who does Ilias have around him? Seeing this would be frustrating but from the outside it looks super selfish and he's not looking at the bigger picture. Sloan is no different.

Totally agree and that would be a contributing factor to why these two kids are asking for releases.
They can see that being in the Dragons system with inferior rosters and coaching is going to potentially stifle their growth and careers.
Joining the dogs right now would give Sullivan more opportunities than he is currently afforded. He’d be playing behind a better forward pack with faster, more talented backs to feed, better management and coaching.
Hes going to have an NRL career one way or another given his talent but it will be a very different career based on which team he plays for, and the opportunities or lack thereof he gets at dragons or dogs.

 

[True_Believer]

They can see that being in the Dragons system with inferior rosters and coaching is going to potentially stifle their growth and careers.

I would agree with you EXCEPT that Sullivan waited to ask for the release until after Hunt had resigned. This tells me it's not about stifling his career or growth, it's purely about game time and money. He was happy to take a position in the halves if Hunt didn't sign irrespective of the rest of the team and quality of the roster.

To me, Sullivans request indicates an expectation that he deserves a more permanent first grade spot and more money now.

Joining the dogs right now would give Sullivan more opportunities than he is currently afforded. He’d be playing behind a better forward pack with faster, more talented backs to feed, better management and coaching.

Possibly, it's hard to know. Ciraldo is unproven but does look to have the goods, and really, Sullivans ability to step up fulltime is still unknown. Not to mention his injury woes recently. I do think the Dragons have a plan, but it means he has to wait. If that's not something he can do, then he probably is better off moving on.

I don't think Hook is the answer as coach. But I do think he's a means to an end while the club works to setup the rest of the coaching staff. I think the shuffle in the lower grades and the assistant coaches is part of this search for a workable hierarchy.

 

[Maddragon99]

i think I understand your point about 3 rookie’s in the spine. It a fair point (if I indeed follow it) but not one I subscribe to given our team atm, and the team we can develop in coming years.

my counter to your 3 rookie point is that if Hunt, Amone and Ramsey are there anyway, it’s the 4th position we are discussing. The only real experience hooker (assuming Hunt is a half) is macca. do I understand you mean he needs to be there? Or is Liddle experienced enough in your opinion?

personally, and based on this year, I would prefer a 3rd youth player rather than macca. And next year we have more experience in the youth players than this year. if we had recruited another hooker of experience who is faster, and can draw defenders rather than the obvious pass each time, then I may change my opinion. are you suggesting Liddle is the solution to this point. At this stage he is unproven and I am not convinced, hence I make my comments accordingly.

this takes me to the last point. Yes, I’d prefer to risk languishing next year to build a team, to give experience etc. than I would to meander in 9-14th position, and have our next gen players move on to our rivals.

hope that explains my pov.

oh, additional point. Your comment on staggering is ok. But if your affecting the advancement of some players, you need to get buy in for it to work. 2 requests for release indicate that’s not happening.

Barring a miracle we are not close to being a top 8 side next year anyway. Our best hope is that Griffin gets punted early on & there’s a change of approach.

I totally understand the ‘too much youth’ in the spine argument but we either invest in youth or it’ll be more of the same for years to come. The coach’s job is to coach the players & improve their games, isn’t Soward the halves coach to help Griffin?

To be honest I could live with losing Sloan, there are holes in his game plus we have Ramsey playing well & Max Feagai & Trey Stewart in reserve.

But losing Sullivan will haunt us for a decade or more. Quality halves are so hard to develop, apart from Hornby who was a fullback the last quality half we developed was Matt Head until he ripped his knee in 2005.

Every effort should be made to
placate Sullivan & if that means shifting Hunt to dummy half then so be it. After all Hunt is the current QLD & Australian International number 9.

 

[Gourley's Socks]

Well isn't what you've just described actually impatience and arrogance? What makes a player think he knows better than the coach?

Edit: And to be fair, they are getting opportunities. Limited time granted, but it's not like they are wallowing in KOE for the entire season. Other clubs are going to make it seem like the opportunity of a life time. But they are going to have to essentially earn their stripes elsewhere anyway.

Confidence and arrogance aren't the same thing. There are confident people who are humble and there are arrogant knobs who turn to jelly.

And I don't subscribe to the view that coaches always know best. Just like teachers or bosses, coaches aren't infallible.

Still it's possible that both player and coach are right in this situation. Perhaps Sullivan, for example, isn't ready to be a FG half in this squad but he is ready in another. All speculation of course but no less possible.

I just find it unfair to leap to the conclusion of arrogance and impatience when it's absolutely possible it may be something rather more benign. I'd like to think more of the character of some of these kids.

 

[True_Believer]

Confidence and arrogance aren't the same thing. There are confident people who are humble and there are arrogant knobs who turn to jelly.

And I don't subscribe to the view that coaches always know best. Just like teachers or bosses, coaches aren't infallible.

Still it's possible that both player and coach are right in this situation. Perhaps Sullivan, for example, isn't ready to be a FG half in this squad but he is ready in another. All speculation of course but no less possible.

I just find it unfair to leap to the conclusion of arrogance and impatience when it's absolutely possible it may be something rather more benign. I'd like to think more of the character of some of these kids.

Fair enough - confidence is a different view of the situation. I just don't have the belief that a junior player should be dictating to the coach whether he plays or not. Final decision is up to the coach irrespective of what the player thinks.

 

[denis preston]

Yep it's their little bubble and they don't want anyone to interfere ......

That’s the one major impression I got at the red V function. The CEO, coach , director of football we’re all very chummy. All mates in a bubble who can’t see outside it. Vvery unprofessional unaccountable management . Surely everybody else can see the Hunt comments as being very very selfish and doing nothing for club culture.

 

[Illusion]

That’s the one major impression I got at the red V function. The CEO, coach , director of football we’re all very chummy. All mates in a bubble who can’t see outside it. Vvery unprofessional unaccountable management . Surely everybody else can see the Hunt comments as being very very selfish and doing nothing for club culture.

Denis I can see this being a big problem , going forward , especially if Hook is resigned .....

 

[Parko1310]

Denis I can see this being a big problem , going forward , especially if Hook is resigned .....

The writing's on the wall for hook. 2023 isn't going to be pretty and I feel it would be a miracle if we managed much better than an even win-loss ratio again next year. With Des seemingly on the outer at manly, I see him taking over as a very real possibility.

 

[Illusion]

The writing's on the wall for hook. 2023 isn't going to be pretty and I feel it would be a miracle if we managed much better than an even win-loss ratio again next year. With Des seemingly on the outer at manly, I see him taking over as a very real possibility.

Can only hope , but as have said before , I can see a D. Young set-up happening .....

 

[Maddragon99]

The writing's on the wall for hook. 2023 isn't going to be pretty and I feel it would be a miracle if we managed much better than an even win-loss ratio again next year. With Des seemingly on the outer at manly, I see him taking over as a very real possibility.

What might work in our favour is that a number of clubs signed new coaches for 2023 so there won’t be a lot of competition for Hasler should he become available.

Apart from us there could be vacancies at Gold Coast & Newcastle but both are out of Sydney.

 

[Parko1310]

Can only hope , but as have said before , I can see a D. Young set-up happening .....

Surely with the already growing fan dissatisfaction with that idea the club would take a step back for a moment and not go down that path. But we all know that all too often this club seems to almost deliberately go the wrong way. As you say, we can only hope they realise Young isn't the way to go.