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News Do you care if Israel Folau returns to the NRL?

Do you care if Israel Folau returns to the NRL?

  • I want him back in the NRL.

    Votes: 60 17.2%
  • I don't want him back in the NRL.

    Votes: 113 32.4%
  • I couldn't care less if he returns or not.

    Votes: 176 50.4%

  • Total voters
    349

SBD82

Coach
Messages
17,120
Not exactly a parallel, but this matter will be decided by a court in any case.
It will. And I’ll be very curious to see how it plays out. The legal arguments are going to be very interesting, especially since Australian law has largely been defined by gradual change instead of a bill of rights. Another interesting part will be whether a corporation is protected by the same rights as an individual, as well as whether Israel is seen to be acting as an agent of the ARU in his personal time.

Call me cynical, but regardless of how interesting the court case is, I can see how the media will represent the arguments already. It will be “muh free speech” vs “stop oppressing us” without any nuance to the reporting.
 

typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,430
Using that logic you could argue that sending people to jail for things they have said isn't infringing on their freedom of speech, because you know, 'the tweets are still up and there's nothing stopping him from tweeting more, so he can say what he likes, but if he actually says it we're going to throw him in jail, and for any repeat offence we'll extend his term, but that's not infringing on his freedom of speech because he can still say it'.

That is literally the argument you are making, only taken to a slightly further extreme, but there's no principle in your reasoning why it couldn't be taken to that further extreme, and even if you reject that extreme other people won't and you'll have no logically consistent reasoning to argue against that except to say that it goes too far.

Whether people realise it or not (and frankly I think most do), at it's very core allowing things like what is happening to Folau is a direct threat to freedom of speech and expression because it sends the message to anybody that agrees with him that if they use their freedom of speech to express a similar opinion then they are liable to be treated the same way that he has been (i.e. in this case have their livelihoods destroyed), which then cows them into compliance with the majority by making them self censor, which effectively destroys their freedom of speech, and at the same time completely destroys the idea of individual rights and manufacturers radicals.

This sort of stuff is straight out of the authoritarians handbook, and the really sad thing is that my 'side' of politics are the ones doing it because in their arrogance they think that they will always dominate the public discourse as they do now, and therefore will always be the ones deciding what opinions are and aren't hate speech, and what and whom should or shouldn't be censored.

So yeah, your argument is just intentionally over-simplistic nonsense that's being used to excuse the deliberate attempt to silence those that disagree with you.
Comparing being sacked by your employer due to not adhering to their code of conduct and being sent to jail over a tweet is a bit of a long bow.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,855
It is clear that a good number of people think his battle is worth fighting and are prepared to support him. I would too but he is of much greater means than I am. This is a test case, quite unprecedented in Australian law. They don't come along every day. If you find yourself involved in one some day, maybe people will support you.

Not really, if you go back to pre-WW1 politics this sort of stuff used to happen all the time (it was even more prevalent in the UK though).

I forget the names of the parties at the time (this was mainly pre-Liberal and the Labour party wasn't the only game in town back then), but the vast majority of rich people that owned the factories, mines, etc, all voted for elitist parties, and the vast majority of the workers all voted for working class parties and/or were union members.

Anyhow, what used to happen is that a worker in the factory/mine/etc would become a prominent member of a union, Labour, or one of the other working class "left wing" parties, and then using some of the exact same arguments that are being used against Folau (i.e. his opinions don't represent the company and by working for the company he is representing the company, etc) they'd be fired by the owner in an attempt to undermine their political career by taking their livelihoods away from them.

Anyway long story short eventually these cases went to the courts and it was decided that firing a person because they had different politics to you was discrimination and thus what we would call wrongful dismissal, and that your employer doesn't own your mind, but somewhere along the way we seem to have forgotten that as a society.

What is happening to Israel is basically the exact same thing that used to happen to those Union and working class guys that went into politics, and I'm certain that there are other similar cases from throughout Australian history, for example I'm certain that there were cases of people being fired for being gay or for supporting gay rights, which is pretty ironic considering the circumstances now.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,855
Comparing being sacked by your employer due to not adhering to their code of conduct and being sent to jail over a tweet is a bit of a long bow.

It's not a long bow at all because it's using the exact same principle.

On the same principle that destroying his livelihood for expressing an opinion that the majority doesn't like isn't impacting on his freedom of speech as long as he is still able to say it, you could say that throwing him to jail for expressing an opinion that the majority doesn't like isn't impacting on his freedom of speech as long as he is still able to say it.

So yeah considering that it's not a low bow at all.
 

TheFrog

Coach
Messages
14,300
The world is nigh is a bit different to what is said by Israel.
He paraphrased material that has been in the public domain for thousands of years. It's not like he made it up. He did it in a way that was confrontational, but really all he did was repeat the Christian doctrine. In that way it's pretty similar to the bloke with the sandwich board.
 

typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,430
It's not a long bow at all because it's using the exact same principle.

On the same principle that destroying his livelihood for expressing an opinion that the majority doesn't like isn't impacting on his freedom of speech as long as he is still able to say it, you could say that throwing him to jail for expressing an opinion that the majority doesn't like isn't impacting on his freedom of speech as long as he is still able to say it.

So yeah considering that it's not a low bow at all.
Israel signs a contract with responsibilities he chooses not to adhere to. RA hasn't destroyed his livelihood, there is a reason why French Rugby and NRL won't touch him. They are free to make decisions in their own best interests where they can legally do so as much as Israel can decide whether or not he can adhere to their codes of conduct.
 

Knight Vision

First Grade
Messages
5,066
That doesn’t sound any different to China or North Korea.
Australia is owned by corporations that control everything you see, hear and think The real difference is that in Australia you have the illusion of choice, the illusion of freedom- you don't.
 

Knight Vision

First Grade
Messages
5,066
Another interesting part will be whether a corporation is protected by the same rights as an individual
"Juristic person " would infer there is corporate personhood in Australian Law.

A win for Falua would mean every racist bigoted asshole would be free to call for violence against every minority they choose- which is clearly unacceptable.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,855
It’s really not the argument I’m making it over-simplistic and you know it.

The argument you made is incredibly over-simplistic, because it completely ignores the impact that the way punishing a person for speech has on the wider group of people that share his views .

You are creating a societal standard that if people hold certain unsavory ideas that it's okay to discriminate against them, in doing so you are also threatening anybody that agrees with said ideas that if they express said ideas they'll face the same punishment, by doing that you effectively censor ideas because through force you have removed them from the market place of ideas through fear of reprisal, and once you have a culture of fear for expressing certain ideas you effectively don't have freedom of speech anymore.
 

SBD82

Coach
Messages
17,120
"Juristic person " would infer there is corporate personhood in Australian Law.

A win for Falua would mean every racist bigoted asshole would be free to call for violence against every minority they choose- which is clearly unacceptable.
I find it unacceptable, but judging by the public support that Folau is receiving, perhaps it’s time to reevaluate what is clearly unacceptable to the Australian public.
 

SBD82

Coach
Messages
17,120
The argument you made is incredibly over-simplistic, because it completely ignores the impact that the way punishing a person for speech has on the wider group of people that share his views .

You are creating a societal standard that if people hold certain unsavory ideas that it's okay to discriminate against them, in doing so you are also threatening anybody that agrees with said ideas that if they express said ideas they'll face the same punishment, by doing that you effectively censor ideas because through force you have removed them from the market place of ideas through fear of reprisal, and once you have a culture of fear for expressing certain ideas you effectively don't have freedom of speech anymore.
I think you’ve based your last few comments on the false assumption that there is an equivalence in the punishments imposed by criminal and civil law.
 

typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,430
He paraphrased material that has been in the public domain for thousands of years. It's not like he made it up. He did it in a way that was confrontational, but really all he did was repeat the Christian doctrine. In that way it's pretty similar to the bloke with the sandwich board.
The difference though is the fact he isn't the bloke with a sandwich board which is the point.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,855
Israel signs a contract with responsibilities he chooses not to adhere to.

The disagreement isn't whether Israel broke his contract or not, it's whether or not a company should be able to enforce such responsibilities at all!

RA hasn't destroyed his livelihood, there is a reason why French Rugby and NRL won't touch him.

His main source of income is gone and he has effectively been blacklisted from his profession, if that's not destroying his livelihood then I'd hate to see what you think is. And French Rugby and the NRL won't touch him because they are scared of the mob coming for them next.

They are free to make decisions in their own best interests where they can legally do so as much as Israel can decide whether or not he can adhere to their codes of conduct.

Again the argument isn't whether they can, it's whether they should be allowed to.

Though to be clear I don't think that it's clear that RA legally can do what they have at all, but that is another argument, and not one that I'm in a position to argue because I'm not a lawyer.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,855
I think you’ve based your last few comments on the false assumption that there is an equivalence in the punishments imposed by criminal and civil law.

I haven't actually brought up the law at all, only philosophical principals, so I don't know what you are talking about.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,855
"Juristic person " would infer there is corporate personhood in Australian Law.

A win for Falua would mean every racist bigoted asshole would be free to call for violence against every minority they choose- which is clearly unacceptable.

No it wouldn't, and nobody is going after him for incitement to violence.
 

Meth

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
34,862
Morgan Turinuis tweet says it all.

The image of Folaus fund raising at the top of the tree today, the next three are people fighting for their life.

How unchristian is that?

I don't rate this mate, to be honest.

People raise money for all sorts of things- not just sick children fighting for their lives. There's no doubt in my mind that the sick kids are a better cause than Folau's crusade, or my mate's cookbook, or Panda's- but people give to what they feel compelled to give to and that's their prerogative.

Folau isn't stealing money from sick kids. He's just also raising money. Whether he should be or not is another question, but the fact that money is also being raised for sick kids is irrelevant IMO.
 

Pommy

Coach
Messages
14,657
The argument you made is incredibly over-simplistic, because it completely ignores the impact that the way punishing a person for speech has on the wider group of people that share his views .

You are creating a societal standard that if people hold certain unsavory ideas that it's okay to discriminate against them, in doing so you are also threatening anybody that agrees with said ideas that if they express said ideas they'll face the same punishment, by doing that you effectively censor ideas because through force you have removed them from the market place of ideas through fear of reprisal, and once you have a culture of fear for expressing certain ideas you effectively don't have freedom of speech anymore.

So should Izzy have been able to say politely he has a dislike for other races? And should RA have to stand by this?
If not why is this ok to censor? Are you pretending we don’t already have this kind of censorship in our society?
 

Twizzle

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
151,237
So in a nutshell who's gunna win on the day???

Raelene Castle VS Israel Folau
615d47c4f03a214b0ca497776c08d382

RUGBY'S VERY OWN STATE OF ORIGIN


the legal representatives will be the winners at the end of all this
 

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