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Dragons team Vs Bronco's Rnd 22

Messages
1,564
The problem that supercedes all this is that kids think they are entitled to a 1st grade start straight out of NYC. This is due to the lack of prestige in NSW Cup (should be reserve grade), the extra attention they get from playing curtain raisers every week, and clubs poaching and pumping their self-worth up undeservedly!

The above is also the reason we see people calling out for the likes of Hastings, Cummins, Runciman, Seru etc to get a run ASAP.

HOWEVER, Dragons are in a different situation; we are simply out of players due to injuries and poor recruitment. So sometimes, we need to give some kids a go.

well said BennyV - great post

Would it have been prudent or appropriate to have played Harry Seijka staright into first grade first week do you think?

Dezziedc, as a rule, if you were a Coach do you think there are circumstances that warrant promoting Young Players by "throwing them into the deep end" so as to speak?

Do you think Young Players should only get a run when injuries and origin come about, or do you think giving them 1st grade time before the inevitable call ups due to injury etc, may send another, stronger message to the player being promoted, and those whom they are replacing.... Or is it situational?

In the back of my mind is Steve Price's comment at the beginning of the year concerning Drinkwater, Fein and Soward (from another more light hearted thread)....

"....I'm very happy with how Josh is carrying himself at training, he's got a very sound kicking game and he plays direct and he goes to the line, so Jamie and Nathan will get first crack and they've got some heat under them."

If Harry were not injured now, would you play him instead of Fein, giving us two rookie halves 'til the end of the year, or at least have him on the bench?

And lastly, what if the cutters is not "on the same page" as the first grade Team as the means by which fringe and young first graders prove themselves worthy of a first grade start ?
 

jenninga

First Grade
Messages
8,545
The problem that supercedes all this is that kids think they are entitled to a 1st grade start straight out of NYC. This is due to the lack of prestige in NSW Cup (should be reserve grade), the extra attention they get from playing curtain raisers every week, and clubs poaching and pumping their self-worth up undeservedly!

The above is also the reason we see people calling out for the likes of Hastings, Cummins, Runciman, Seru etc to get a run ASAP.

HOWEVER, Dragons are in a different situation; we are simply out of players due to injuries and poor recruitment. So sometimes, we need to give some kids a go.

Spot on.
 

BennyV

Referee
Messages
24,016
well said BennyV - great post

Would it have been prudent or appropriate to have played Harry Seijka staright into first grade first week do you think?

Dezziedc, as a rule, if you were a Coach do you think there are circumstances that warrant promoting Young Players by "throwing them into the deep end" so as to speak?

Do you think Young Players should only get a run when injuries and origin come about, or do you think giving them 1st grade time before the inevitable call ups due to injury etc, may send another, stronger message to the player being promoted, and those whom they are replacing.... Or is it situational?

In the back of my mind is Steve Price's comment at the beginning of the year concerning Drinkwater, Fein and Soward (from another more light hearted thread)....

"....I'm very happy with how Josh is carrying himself at training, he's got a very sound kicking game and he plays direct and he goes to the line, so Jamie and Nathan will get first crack and they've got some heat under them."

If Harry were not injured now, would you play him instead of Fein, giving us two rookie halves 'til the end of the year, or at least have him on the bench?

And lastly, what if the cutters is not "on the same page" as the first grade Team as the means by which fringe and young first graders prove themselves worthy of a first grade start ?

I don't think Harry should have been starting halfback from week 1, but after 1 or 2 cutters games he definitely deserved to have a run off the bench. If he wasn't injured right now, I reckon he would be in the starting line up, probably adds more to the team than Quinlan at this point (kicking,ballplay and organising), but I'd say they would have been the halves combo by the end of the year.

I believe that giving youngsters a taste in first grade helps them, but its a balance between throwing them in the deep and not giving them enough time...example, what Souths did with Keary was top notch - give him a handful of half games off the bench to get him used to it (unfortunately he has to fill the 5/8 role due to injury but he's more ready than Quinlan was)..

By contrast, Drinkwater was given 20 minutes off the bench, then demoted and forgotten...as much as he fell out of favour, is there a chance it could have been handled better? Because now if Fien goes down, he will truly be thrown in the deep end...
 

Dezziedc

Juniors
Messages
665
Would it have been prudent or appropriate to have played Harry Seijka staright into first grade first week do you think?

Personally I don't think it would have been prudent. It had been at least 2 years since he last played first grade and, at the most, he would have had a week training with the team. I would have given him at least 2 weeks in the cutters and training with the first grade team before even considering putting him up into first grade. Unfortunately for us, he was injured and that put that option to bed.

Dezziedc, as a rule, if you were a Coach do you think there are circumstances that warrant promoting Young Players by "throwing them into the deep end" so as to speak?

I think there are - but they would have to be exceptional circumstances and I would need to be convinced that the player in question could handle the promotion and is worthy of the promotion - it's a very difficult position to be in because it has the potential to backfire on you - from the players point of view, from the point of view of other players coming through and from the current teams point of view.

Just because a team is performing badly does not necessarily count as an exceptional circumstance. As Benny said, alot of this praise goes to the younger players heads and they believe they deserve that chance immediately. I think Hastings is one such player. Give him a chance in the Cutters by all means, but in my mind there is no chance I would be putting him in 1st grade at this stage. He needs to prove himself at the next level. Hell, he may play 6 or so games for them and really shine - that's when I would be looking to drop him into a game here and there in the 1st grade team. If he doesn't perform, you need to keep developing him or drop him back again - he obviously isn't ready. It's trial and error.

Do you think Young Players should only get a run when injuries and origin come about, or do you think giving them 1st grade time before the inevitable call ups due to injury etc, may send another, stronger message to the player being promoted, and those whom they are replacing.... Or is it situational?

I don't think young players should only get runs in those situations. There should be a plan within the club to drip feed some players through to the Cutters and first grade. And I think that has been happening.

The problem we have as fans, is that we don't see what is happening off the field or behind the scenes that helps shape those decisions. For example, at the start of the year, I was excited to have Drinkwater join the team. He sounded like a good prospect. I didn't fully expect him to start the season, but I was hoping that we would start seeing him getting some game time around game 4 or 5. And we did see him play one game around that time. But for reasons not obvious to us, he didn't get another start. And then I hear that he has been dropped from the Cutters. This points to performance issues or attitude problems. If he wasn't dropped from the cutters, we would not have been able to make these very logical assumptions. Sounds like he is performing a bit better now - he needed that attitude adjustment. Also, why buy Harry if Josh was performing well? There was obviously something significantly wrong with Josh's game or his attitude.

I am happy that Quinlan is finding his feet in first grade and I am hoping we might see more of Charly before the end of the year. But as I said, I don't believe bad 1st grade performance warrants making wholesale changes to the team if we don't have players ready or enough depth.

In the back of my mind is Steve Price's comment at the beginning of the year concerning Drinkwater, Fein and Soward (from another more light hearted thread)....

"....I'm very happy with how Josh is carrying himself at training, he's got a very sound kicking game and he plays direct and he goes to the line, so Jamie and Nathan will get first crack and they've got some heat under them."

This may have been the case at the time, but something went very wrong with Josh between then and the early part of the season. And unfortunately, at the time, that was the only depth we had.

If Harry were not injured now, would you play him instead of Fein, giving us two rookie halves 'til the end of the year, or at least have him on the bench?

I haven't seen any of the games Harry played, but if he performed well in his games for the Cutters, it would be a definite option.

You make a very good point about 2 rookie halves though, and that is definitely a risk. You would have to assess Harry's performance with the Cutters and his interaction with the team at training and make that call. The difference with Harry is that he has some limited first grade experience already AND he has spent at least a couple of years playing in the lower mens grades.

We all agree the Fein is not a half. But at the moment, he is providing some seniority and guidance for Quinlan coming through. I think you do need that, but it would be better coming from a player who has played in that position all his life.

And lastly, what if the cutters is not "on the same page" as the first grade Team as the means by which fringe and young first graders prove themselves worthy of a first grade start ?

I am not completely sure what you mean here. If you are referring to the teams working together to bring players through, then that is a club issue. If the teams aren't working together to get the best results across the board, the club needs to step in make the necessary changes to ensure this is happening.

I know this has become a wall of text, but I just wanted to point out that I do not believe Price has done everything right. There have been some odd decisions made (again for reasons we are not privy to) and some positional assignments that leave me scratching my head. But I do believe he was between a rock and a hard place right from the beginning of this year - lack of solid recruitment, his job on the line (as well as a very public recruitment drive for alternatives), lack of depth in key positions, injury etc. I am not suggesting I am convinced he is 100% a first grade coach, but I am willing to give him next year to prove himself. We have recruited well, we have good backup in key positions and we are hopefully looking to remove the 'dead wood'. At this stage, next year he should have no excuses. I am expecting top 8 at the minimum with the squad we have next year.
 

Dezziedc

Juniors
Messages
665
By contrast, Drinkwater was given 20 minutes off the bench, then demoted and forgotten...as much as he fell out of favour, is there a chance it could have been handled better? Because now if Fien goes down, he will truly be thrown in the deep end...

Definitely a chance it could have been handled better - but as I said in the previous post, there are situations outside of what we see and hear that we are not privy to. Who knows what caused him to be dropped. Only the coaching staff, club and the players know the story about what is actually going on behind the scenes. This is where, as a fan, you have to place trust in the coaching staff and the club that they are making the right decisions. Who's to say it was Prices decision? It could have been Mary's for all we know. The issue with Josh might be an attitude problem, it could be between him and other players, it could be between him and Price or between him and Mary. We just don't know. All we know is that he was dropped for some reason or another.
 

Mr Red

First Grade
Messages
6,193
Price sits Drinkwater on the bench, brings him on for 20 mins mostly playing dummy half.. and then decides based on this he isnt ready for halfback.... Pricey at his best..

thats how i saw it.
 

twinkletoes

Juniors
Messages
1,006
So the consensus seems to be just stick with the same team week in and week out and let the results take care of themselves. We as fans should not expect any improvement this season at all as we basically have the same team that haven't been able to put it together for 21 rounds. And yet we are told on the forum that we don't know what is happening behind the scenes with coaching staff and management and that they know best about running the club throughout the season.

Well I say the coaching staff and management haven't got a clue as to what they are doing...clearly shown by the results and ladder positions of all our 3 teams..all of whom are underachieving.
 

Dezziedc

Juniors
Messages
665
Twinkles, read into it whatever you want. All I am trying to do is provide a different perspective. It's easy as a passionate supporter to immediately shoot down the coach or management for a badly performing team/club. I want the team to win just as badly as everybody else in these forums - my family know to stay away from me after I've watched or listened to a game because I am usually in a very bad mood. However, there's often many more contributing factors to a teams poor performance and from the outside these factors aren't easily identified. I also believe the players themselves need to shoulder some of the blame.

And we aren't sticking with the same team week in week out. We are making slight changes here and there. This is the 3rd combination of halves we've had this year. We've played various combinations in the centres and had a few forwards rotate through. We've bought a new fullback (actually Duges is the 4th fullback we've had this year).

It's all a matter of opinion.
 

Divey

Juniors
Messages
34
Drinkwater should be in the run on side and left there. For God's sake is it that difficult???
 

Country Dragon

Juniors
Messages
2,272
So, what is your problem (critique) with Drinkwaters game??? Just about every time I see the bloke play, he's man of the match. And, he can kick goals.

He was good enough to get a bench spot earlier in the season, and I didn't think he done that bad that he should be banished for good. Unless of course it's all part of the " Price Plan"
 

watatank

Coach
Messages
14,221
I think Price gave Drinkwater a taste of first grade, hoping it would encourage him to work harder at his game at the training and the Cutters. It seemed that Drinkwater didn't put the work in then and he eventually got dropped from the Cutters, now he's back in the team maybe he has improved and maybe he will be good enough to play his way back in.
 

Dezziedc

Juniors
Messages
665
Drinkwater came straight from the U20s - he needed time in the Cutters. As tanks says, it seems reasonable to assume that Price gave him a run to encourage him to put some serious effort in. Either he wasn't ready to take that step or there were other issues.

The other thing at that time was that we were out of options for halves. I'm sure Price was hoping that we could slot him in earlier than anticipated.
 

Bongdragon

Juniors
Messages
38
Greetings fellow Dragons supporter. New to this forum but have been supporting the mighty dragons since 1973. Enough with intros...
You guys should see the same thread in the broncos subpage. They are really giving it to us saying that we are easy beats etc. oh the state of play and how did it ever come to this? Shades of 1993! It can only get better from here I guess and I hope!
 

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