Dragons vs storms (make it or break it)

[Jubileeboy]

Are you saying it shouldn't be discussed?

But you should read all my post.

I was making a comparison with the situation 14 months ago when Price's position became untenable. Shoot the messenger if you like but the facts I posted are pretty clear. Seven consecutive losses is not a record anyone wants.

The final point in my post, which I believed you missed, is that the Club appoints the coaches and they are therefore ultimately responsible. In the last 13-15 years, the Club's record in this area has been wrong most of the time. They need a shake up.

This needs another thread.Are you saying we have no choice?

Seriously, that is one of poorest counter arguments I have ever seen. I know it has been used often but fmd if it isn't just asking us all to bend over.

And it's an illogical argument to boot. It's like demanding proof of something that can't be seen, to prove a negative.

Do you honestly think that there are no other coaches out there? I mean, just because you haven't thought of them? It is the height of arrogance to suggest that we know all the potentials.

In 1995 we had one coach quit, and then a second. The Club had to dig deep and put out the feelers, neccessity being the mother of invention.

And they did good.

They found a third coach option who wasn't on the radar of most supporters. David Waite. As it turned out, this was a wise coaching appointment.

So to say there is no one else is just plain bs. It just takes more gumption and less politics.

Wow...2 simple questions required your version of War and Peace? With make believe arguments from me ?
I asked your view as to who do you see as a replacement, not a history lesson as my memory serves me well most of the time. It was two simple questions, not an attack. As for the rest, I don't even recall me arguing in those two lines, consisting of the two questions I posted? Sorry I asked...

 

[True_Believer]

Are you saying it shouldn't be discussed?

But you should read all my post.

I was making a comparison with the situation 14 months ago when Price's position became untenable. Shoot the messenger if you like but the facts I posted are pretty clear. Seven consecutive losses is not a record anyone wants.

The final point in my post, which I believed you missed, is that the Club appoints the coaches and they are therefore ultimately responsible. In the last 13-15 years, the Club's record in this area has been wrong most of the time. They need a shake up.

This needs another thread.Are you saying we have no choice?

Seriously, that is one of poorest counter arguments I have ever seen. I know it has been used often but fmd if it isn't just asking us all to bend over.

And it's an illogical argument to boot. It's like demanding proof of something that can't be seen, to prove a negative.

Do you honestly think that there are no other coaches out there? I mean, just because you haven't thought of them? It is the height of arrogance to suggest that we know all the potentials.

In 1995 we had one coach quit, and then a second. The Club had to dig deep and put out the feelers, neccessity being the mother of invention.

And they did good.

They found a third coach option who wasn't on the radar of most supporters. David Waite. As it turned out, this was a wise coaching appointment.

So to say there is no one else is just plain bs. It just takes more gumption and less politics.

Not quite sure how you got all of that out of Jubileeboys 2 questions. It looked to me like he was simply asking you to stop beating around the bush and just provide your thoughts on the matter. Your original post was open to interpretation and didn't really shed any light on your actual thoughts.


So correct me if I am wrong, but what I take out of this answer of yours is:


Q: Should Mary be sacked?
Willows answer: Yes


Q: Who should replace him?
Willows answer: That?s not my decision to make.


Bit of a cop out don?t you think?

 

[Willow]

Funny how someone tells people to "lighten up" when it suits. Maybe I should use more emoticons.

Not quite sure how you got all of that out of Jubileeboys 2 questions. It looked to me like he was simply asking you to stop beating around the bush and just provide your thoughts on the matter. Your original post was open to interpretation and didn't really shed any light on your actual thoughts.

Well with respect, I suggest you try to comprehend what's written in front of you. And I'm sorry if it was too long, but this is a discussion forum and sometimes the issues deserve more than ambigious one-liners.

Come to think of it, this post may very well do your head in. If so, then I ask again to please accept my apologies in advance.

And this not about Jubileeboy, and it certainly isn't about me. But let's face it, Jubileeboy weighed into the debate by essentially telling people to shut up. IMO, it's not healthy for discussion.

I only ask that you address my points, if you can. Argue against those points if you wish. But please, let's not whinge when a frank exchange of views is at hand.

So correct me if I am wrong, but what I take out of this answer of yours is:

Q: Should Mary be sacked?
Willows answer: Yes

I'll take up the option of correcting you. But firstly let me say it is ironic that you are attempting to provide my answers for me. I can see you're after something that is either black or white. I believe the issue is far too complex for that. In my opinion, the club politics alone has made it hard for rational decision-making. But I'll do my best to answer from another angle, and in one line...

I wouldn't say "sack McGregor" right now. Mainly because I know we are stuck with him for the forseeable future. My view is that it will need to get a lot worse - even worse than Price - before the board turns on him. Plus he isn't the only one of course.

Q: Who should replace him?

Willows answer: That?s not my decision to make.

Of course, but also who knows? I'm of the view that we should be looking outside.

Bit of a cop out don?t you think?

Indeed, but don't be so hard on yourself.

 

[Dorsai]

I am not sure at this point that anyone has an answer to the team in freefall. Its very easy to sit there as coaches and trainers and conditioners with a smile on your face whilst a team is out there and clicking. When that clicking stops however, they are the ones that need to have already come up with a solution and remedy. Dont sit back and not expect lean times.

Whilst the team was hitting the highs it was a combination of both defence and good kicking. They didnt score lots of points but only needed to score more than they let in. The team understood what each member was doing.

Why the difference now? Why has the team stopped working as a team and understanding what each member is supposed to do? Well, thats what the coaching and training and conditioning staff should have been focused on during the good times. Preparing for the eventual time when everything does not work.

I am not a coach, just a humble fan of the club. I have no idea how McGregor is going about fixing the issue. But I do believe he should have been thinking about it earlier than when it presented itself. To me, he does not seem to have a clue in the press conferences of where the issue is. The games we watch and the games the coahes invariably see tend to be two different things. Having others in the coaching staff doing press conferences on the website is an interesting ploy to take the highlight off the coach and let us believe they are all close to a resolution. I am not so sure of this.

We have a defence that has gone from stingy to extravegant. The tacking at times is atrocious. There is no penetration with the attack. Very few forwards attack the ball in attack. We run sideways more than forward. I cannot see anyone out there with an answer or a clue at times. Offloads are minimal. Line brakes can be counted on 1 hand with a few fingers missing. Effective tackles, ones cleaning up the player and ball, are too far and few.

You could go on and on, but really its not worth anything unless the coaching staff see it and have an answer to fix it or improve it. I am sure we will click a couple of games before the season finishes and everyone will pat themselves on the back and say we have the answer. I am just not sure it will be a real answer.

This "next year" syndrom seems to be overtaking this club at great speed. I am very sad about it as a St George supporter. I have followed this team for over 45 years. We should be better placed than we are, financially and as a team. All we ever hear though is "next year". We write our season off sometimes before it has even started. We call for coach sackings and board movements, but nothing ever seems to take place. I do not know when mediocracy crept into our club as an accepted norm. I do know though that unless we can get our club board, coaches, and players to "oust" the medicracy idea, we will be just a footnote in rugby league. Not the power that we should be.

 

[Willow]

Wow...2 simple questions required your version of War and Peace? With make believe arguments from me ?
I asked your view as to who do you see as a replacement, not a history lesson as my memory serves me well most of the time. It was two simple questions, not an attack. As for the rest, I don't even recall me arguing in those two lines, consisting of the two questions I posted? Sorry I asked...

I didn't think it was an attack. That's your interpretation. Sorry if my post caused you any grief.

So you are saying that you agree with me? I mean...

1. Do you agree that McGregor's situation is at least approaching Price-like proportions given the facts at hand?
And 2., the board has a very ordinary record when it comes to coaching appointments over the last 13-15 years?

I am surprised if you do agree, because in the past you have mocked any movement that is anti-board. Indeed, in this very thread you have done just that and suggested that people should accept the situation at hand.

SO, if there has been an about-face on this, then I apologise for misreading you. And I for one look forward to your future support in bringing about some changes at board level. I feel this is essential to be bring about long term positive outcomes on the field.

Look forward to your reply.

 

[stevejay]

I know this was directed at jubilee boy but I'll answer if I may.

1. Do you agree that McGregor's situation is at least approaching Price-like proportions given the facts at hand?

Not even close. IMO of course.

1) Willow, prior to the injuries were you unhappy with McGregors performance as a coach? ( bear in mind our position on the table at that time)

2) And do you think we were desperately unlucky to lose against Dogs, Rabbits and Eels given the diabolical ref calls?

 

[rainman44]

I know this was directed at jubilee boy but I'll answer if I may.

Not even close. IMO of course.

1) Willow, prior to the injuries were you unhappy with McGregors performance as a coach? ( bear in mind our position on the table at that time)

2) And do you think we were desperately unlucky to lose against Dogs, Rabbits and Eels given the diabolical ref calls?

I agree Mary needs to be judged next year, this year we lack go forward fullstop

 

[hewi]

We have a defence that has gone from stingy to extravegant. The tacking at times is atrocious. There is no penetration with the attack. Very few forwards attack the ball in attack. We run sideways more than forward. I cannot see anyone out there with an answer or a clue at times. Offloads are minimal. Line brakes can be counted on 1 hand with a few fingers missing. Effective tackles, ones cleaning up the player and ball, are too far and few.

The above pretty much sums up the problems. Very similar to when Price was coaching them. I'd add in that they give away to many soft penalties that stops any momentum they might have had. And that's leads me to,say if we on this forum can see it surely the coaching staff can and then why aren't we seeing efforts to fix it. Personally the first thing I would do,is drop Benji. I think he has been diabolical the last few weeks. To many times he goes for the myrical ball at the wrong time and it comes back to bite us with the other side scoring.

 

[Jubileeboy]

I didn't think it was an attack. That's your interpretation. Sorry if my post caused you any grief.

So you are saying that you agree with me? I mean...

1. Do you agree that McGregor's situation is at least approaching Price-like proportions given the facts at hand?
And 2., the board has a very ordinary record when it comes to coaching appointments over the last 13-15 years?

I am surprised if you do agree, because in the past you have mocked any movement that is anti-board. Indeed, in this very thread you have done just that and suggested that people should accept the situation at hand.

SO, if there has been an about-face on this, then I apologise for misreading you. And I for one look forward to your future support in bringing about some changes at board level. I feel this is essential to be bring about long term positive outcomes on the field.

Look forward to your reply.

Willow, we may not agree on many things but once again, let's not confuse my views on the #SOS 'campaign' with my views on the performance of the board. That is a different kettle of fish and I dispute your claims on what I do or don't think. There is a sticky thread at the top of the page and I think you will find my views in there.

'Do you agree that McGregor's situation is at least approaching Price-like proportions given the facts at hand?'
Whilst not happy about the performance's of the last 7 weeks, I think it is fair to say there have been mitigating circumstances that have heavily contributed to this run of losses - namely, injuries. Price had 3 years of poor performances and I can't recall the injury crisis being as bad in his tenure. Personally and only in my humble opinion, I do not think McGregor should be concerned about his position and I also feel that next year will be a better squad.

' the board has a very ordinary record when it comes to coaching appointments over the last 13-15 years?'
Excluding Bennett - agreed

Anything that improves our long term success both on and off the field, wins my vote of approval. However, once again, there needs to be a clearer understanding of some of the process' involved and many are sometimes whipped into a frenzy when not given the correct information.

We are looking for the same results.

 

[Saints Forever]

Guys

I am not a McGregor supporter, I am one of the silly blokes who wanted to see Brownie brought back to the club, because he is a great judge of junior talent and knows how to nurture the juniors.

Paul McGregor/coaching staff, inexperienced or otherwise simply don't have the cattle.

Forwards are trying their guts out each week, but they are simply not top 4-6 contenders.

We don't have the strike power of days gone by. No Gaz/Cooper/Morris.

No serious quality depth.

We are short 2 large powerful first grade standard props with aggression/leg drive.

Under the current salary cap/third party payments system we are simply not financially competitive.

Lets support our coaching staff and team.

If McGregor has a better set of forwards next year and we somehow snag a power runner in the backline, and we do worse than this year, we have something to moan about.

We know Paul is not a coach who has the ability to devise attacking options. May I suggest we add Brownie for this limited purpose to the coaching staff ?

 

[Slippery Morris]

Anyone see the Dogs v Sharks game yesterday? That was a shocking game. Both in front of the Dragons and playing terrible. If Dogs don't make the 8 will dogs fans demand Hasler be sacked? No. Yet if Dogs don't make the 8 Hasler proven to be more of a failure than Mary and possibly Price with the squad he has. Same with Cleary, his team has hardly been in the 8, would Panthers fans suggest he be sacked? No.

Dragons fans expectations are so high it is mind boggling. Saints were tipped to win the spoon at the start of the year and have been top 8 most of it. Lighten up. They have had a tough run and it will be a little easier the next 6 weeks. At least wait till then and before you make judgement at least compare him to other coaches that finish below him.

 

[Gm5]

we peaked too early, I think if we lost the first half of the season then made a comeback and still failed to make the 8 the board would label the season as somewhat of a success and that our future looks bright

 

[Willow]

I know this was directed at jubilee boy but I'll answer if I may.

Not even close. IMO of course.

7 losses in a row. I recall that Price's head was on the chopping block when we lost 6 out of 7. To be fair, some of the losses under Price were by big scorelines. Some games were 30+ and it was something like 74-6 in his last 2 matches. No coach can survive that. McGregor hasn't reached that point yet but the recent stats must be worrying someone, somewhere.

1) Willow, prior to the injuries were you unhappy with McGregors performance as a coach? ( bear in mind our position on the table at that time)

Of course I was happy, why do you ask? For a brief moment we were top of the table. The highlight was when we belted the scum at Kogarah. I was hoping it would continue too.

I was never happy with how the appointment came about, that's being honest. But once it was done I wanted McGregor, and us, to win.

Re the injuries, yes that happens and is part of the game. We have a lack of depth. Why?

2) And do you think we were desperately unlucky to lose against Dogs, Rabbits and Eels given the diabolical ref calls?

With the greatest respect, I have never been confortable with the referee excuses. Don't get me wrong, the refs stuffed up and like a lot of people here I wasn't quiet about it. I think we even copped some shockers from the ref against Mellbourne. But we also lost these games. Against Canterbury, Souths and and Parramatta, I thought it was race to see who was going to make the most mistakes, the Referees or Saints.

When we are finished thinking of all the reasons why, we are still left with 0 points after a loss. With all the issues, the team has still been inconsistent on the field. They try hard, but look rudderless at times.

One of my favourite quotes from Wayne Bennett was when Canterbury were bleating about losing to us at Kogarah. The match where they had a try disallowed right on full time. He said something like, "If you try to win a game in the last few minutes, then 9 times out of 10 you will walk away disappointed."

 

[stevejay]

This ...

7 losses in a row. I recall that Price's head was on the chopping block when we lost 6 out of 7. To be fair, some of the losses under Price were by big scorelines. Some games were 30+ and it was something like 74-6 in his last 2 matches. No coach can survive that. McGregor hasn't reached that point yet but the recent stats must be worrying someone,

... contradicts this ...

1. Do you agree that McGregor's situation is at least approaching Price-like proportions given the facts at hand?l

With respect. And IMO.

 

[Slippery Morris]

Price coached teams against top sides was one way traffic. Mary against top sides not that one way. They actually won a few. Saints were labelled soft under Price can you honestly say the forwards are soft under Mary? Seriously that is sad. The boys have put in a good effort this year and if you are saying they are playing like they did under Price then that is disrespecting not only Mary but the players who have tried hard to gain respect from the other sides which I think they have. All you can ask from a coach is that he gets the boys playing to their potential and I feel he has unlike Price.

The attack is struggling but not through lack of trying. You can see Benji and Widdop trying to create tries but it all comes down to execution which lets them down or refs. How was Benji's pass forward against the Storm? It was a peach which turned the game big time.

 

[Willow]

This ...
... contradicts this ...

Haha. Nice try, but no it doesn't. Your strawman argument is now in full swing.

 

[The Nick]

The stats are open to interpretation and whilst I acknowledge that a loss is a loss - I think it's obvious to anyone who's watched the Dragons the past 4 seasons that there is a big difference in the way our 2015 side loses in comparison to the sides of 2012, 2013 and 2014.

In a hypothetical match, Mary's Dragons easily account for Price's Dragons (despite almost being identical on paper).

To compare Mary to Price is rubbish and suggests a very short memory.

Straight Shooter.

 

[hazzbeen]

The stats are open to interpretation and whilst I acknowledge that a loss is a loss - I think it's obvious to anyone who's watched the Dragons the past 4 seasons that there is a big difference in the way our 2015 side loses in comparison to the sides of 2012, 2013 and 2014.

In a hypothetical match, Mary's Dragons easily account for Price's Dragons (despite almost being identical on paper).

To compare Mary to Price is rubbish and suggests a very short memory.

Straight Shooter.

Niick what you say is right.....they are loosing , but putting in the effort.....mate this is the problem with the club at the moment and has been for a couple of years and I have had enough of close enough is good enough.....a loss is a loss.... Not Marys fault it comes back again to Doust and the board for making and running the club to the current stage....Whether Mary is any good or not blame the people who put him there..... Bottom line is we are still loosing, in a improved way.......

 

[Blood Shot Eyes]

we peaked too early, I think if we lost the first half of the season then made a comeback and still failed to make the 8 the board would label the season as somewhat of a success and that our future looks bright

Not sure if you can call it peaked to early.....I think other teams worked us out as we became to predictable ...I also think the byes and injuries at a crucial time affected our momentum is more the case

 

[Objective View]

Price coached teams against top sides was one way traffic. Mary against top sides not that one way. They actually won a few. Saints were labelled soft under Price can you honestly say the forwards are soft under Mary?

This is simply a celebration in mediocrity.

Straight Shooter