DUGAN NEXT

[slippery5]

You mean the whole "Dugan is a centre" argument?
Don't get me wrong I think Dugan's best position is fullback. No doubt. But just remember Dugan himself has been quoted in the past as saying he sees himself as a centre.

That was when Hayne was the NSW fullback & he knew the only way in, was at centre. When Hayne left for NFL all of a sudden he wants to go back to fullback, don't disregard Mary's input in that, being Daley's water boy..

 

[borat]

Every marquee player signing is big news right now, and scooping the signing is worth a lot to the journalists and their reputations. That not one respected league writer has repeated this rumour of Dugan signing with the dogs, and Dugans denial tells me all I need to know.

I also don't get the criticism of Millward and can only see that he has done an outstanding job. Signed a quality half, resigned our best juniors, resigned our bets players. We haven't lost a single decent player to date.

IMO what you are seeing with Dugan negotiations is that it seems a lack of interest elsewhere puts us in a significantly strong bargaining position over other players on the market. That management has called him a centre, well he does play centre at rep level so its not that big a deal. Its just a bargaining position to keep the price down at a time when spine players values are through the roof.

I don't care for whatever bargaining tactic we use but would certainly like to see Dugan resigned and kept at fullback. Never understood the criticism and has been a top tier fullback for quite sometime.

However, wether its Dugan/Packer/Lafai we should not be caught up in a bidding war. No player left is a "must sign" and everyone has a value. Packer for example is a fine front rower and definitely one I would like to see retained. But if the tigers are going to pay overs then leave to it. I suspect most props would look good in our side right now.

 

[Ben_Kusto_magic]

That was when Hayne was the NSW fullback & he new the only way in, was at centre. When Hayne left for NFL all of a sudden he wants to go back to fullback, don't disregard Mary's input in that, being Daley's water boy..

I'm sure Mary had a big influence on that. But Dugan was touting himself as a centre as late as 2016 and backing Mann as the clubs answer to fullback

 

[Gareth67]

You mean the whole "Dugan is a centre" argument?
Don't get me wrong I think Dugan's best position is fullback. No doubt. But just remember Dugan himself has been quoted in the past as saying he sees himself as a centre.

Quite right Ben Kusto , that he has and did so in 2016 , he saw his best football as a centre , not at fullback .
And at the time that was where Mary wanted him to play , in the centres and having another player at fullback .

Fast forward 12 months later and negotiations are on and he is a fullback once again . Fullback , halfback , right back should not make one ounce of difference when you sign to play for a club , none whatsoever . You receive the amount that you are happy with and that should be the end of the story - full fooking stop ! You play in whatever position that you have been selected .Why ? Because you signed a contract to play for your team.

Now last night Josh Dugan stated that he is still in negotiations with the Dragons and also went on to say - " Don't believe everything that you read " , now that has indeed come from the horses mouth and that is good enough for me . His statement does not guarantee that he shall remain a Dragon , but merely that talks are on-going and perhaps more importantly that he has not signed with another club as some believe .


Borat - I have only just posted a reply to Ben Kusto , and have read your post . It seems that I have repeated your own thoughts in your first paragraph , I did not mean to steal your thunder .

 

[Ben_Kusto_magic]

Quite right Ben Kusto , that he has and did so in 2016 , he saw his best football as a centre , not at fullback .
And at the time that was where Mary wanted him to play , in the centres and having another player at fullback .

Fast forward 12 months later and negotiations are on and he is a fullback once again . Fullback , halfback , right back should not make one ounce of difference when you sign to play for a club , none whatsoever . You receive the amount that you are happy with and that should be the end of the story - full fooking stop ! You play in whatever position that you have been selected .Why ? Because you signed a contract to play for your team.

Now last night Josh Dugan stated that he is still in negotiations with the Dragons and also went on to say - " Don't believe everything that you read " , now that has indeed come from the horses mouth and that is good enough for me . His statement does not guarantee that he shall remain a Dragon , but merely that talks are on-going and perhaps more importantly that he has not signed with another club as some believe .


Borat - I have only just posted a reply to Ben Kusto , and have read your post . It seems that I have repeated your own thoughts in your first paragraph , I did not mean to steal your thunder .

Well said!

 

[possm]

We paid overs for him last time. The Cap is going up and Allegedly our offer was lower than his last contract. Duges wants to stay so offer him what he is worth which would be at least equivalent to his previous contract or slightly higher. Maybe sweeten the deal by offering 3 to 4 years. I think Millward knows what he is doing. He will not pay massive overs for Josh and hopefully the 2 parties can meet somewhere in the middle.

Would love to see both Josh and Russell Packer remaining in Dragons colours.

Sorry, I don't think Millward knows what he is doing:
Starts recruiting his favourite juniors first
Then signs Hunt on overs
Then moves to sign all the first grade forwards except for Packer
The starts working on Widdop and Dugan offering both unders.
Then tries to justify the unders offer by declaring Dugan to be a centre.
Then signs Widdop for overs.
Now has offered Dugan overs but not what Dugan is after.
Still to sign Packer, Lafai, Mann. If he offers unders he won't get their signature.

What we don't know is how much of the cap is spent and how much is left to pay for the players not signed.

As far as we know, no TPAs so it has all come off the cap - a ridiculous situation. Surely we cannot compete fairly under this situation.

So as stated previously, I would have gone after Hunt, Dugan and Widdop first. Then move on our first grade squad, then fringe first graders and juniors.

In this way any delays and contentions would be over prior to season start and any left overs would be juniors and fringe first grade players.

 

[Ben_Kusto_magic]

Just speculating Possm, but maybe the juniors were signed up first because their negotiations were less complicated?
I assume the more high profile the player, the bigger the piece of the pie the agent wants. This could cause delays with negotiations
But I definitely agree with you. TPAs need to be looked at for sure

 

[Saintsified]

Just speculating Possm, but maybe the juniors were signed up first because their negotiations were less complicated?
I assume the more high profile the player, the bigger the piece of the pie the agent wants. This could cause delays with negotiations

Nah it's like paying stamp duty on a $300k apartment or $23m mansion. Same amount of work

 

[watatank]

Sorry, I don't think Millward knows what he is doing:
Starts recruiting his favourite juniors first
Then signs Hunt on overs
Then moves to sign all the first grade forwards except for Packer
The starts working on Widdop and Dugan offering both unders.
Then tries to justify the unders offer by declaring Dugan to be a centre.
Then signs Widdop for overs.
Now has offered Dugan overs but not what Dugan is after.
Still to sign Packer, Lafai, Mann. If he offers unders he won't get their signature.

What we don't know is how much of the cap is spent and how much is left to pay for the players not signed.

As far as we know, no TPAs so it has all come off the cap - a ridiculous situation. Surely we cannot compete fairly under this situation.

So as stated previously, I would have gone after Hunt, Dugan and Widdop first. Then move on our first grade squad, then fringe first graders and juniors.

In this way any delays and contentions would be over prior to season start and any left overs would be juniors and fringe first grade players.

Interesting theory but I doubt it would go down like that in real life.

Why would Widdop sign during the off season when he needed to prove his worth? As for Dugan, why would the club just give him what he wants when no one else seems really interested? It's just nature of negotiations, if all negotiations were the same they would all be done much earlier than they are.

Millward has to think about the squad and waiting around to see what Dugan and Widdop decide to do and doing nothing else is poor management. You leave juniors to last you're pretty much letting them walk.

De Belin, Aitken and Host (and the rest) were relatively straightforward signings that don't need the time it took to sign Widdop or Dugan. If we lose sight of that we risk losing them or paying too much to keep them. And I know some people don't rate Aitken (or Host) but the club does.

The club has said that Packer is next, which is fine considering our forward depth. Lafai and Mann are not priorities until the other players are sorted and there's a good chance we lose at least one of them anyway.

 

[The Doc]

Sorry, I don't think Millward knows what he is doing:
Starts recruiting his favourite juniors first
Then signs Hunt on overs
Then moves to sign all the first grade forwards except for Packer
The starts working on Widdop and Dugan offering both unders.
Then tries to justify the unders offer by declaring Dugan to be a centre.
Then signs Widdop for overs.
Now has offered Dugan overs but not what Dugan is after.
Still to sign Packer, Lafai, Mann. If he offers unders he won't get their signature.

What we don't know is how much of the cap is spent and how much is left to pay for the players not signed.

As far as we know, no TPAs so it has all come off the cap - a ridiculous situation. Surely we cannot compete fairly under this situation.

So as stated previously, I would have gone after Hunt, Dugan and Widdop first. Then move on our first grade squad, then fringe first graders and juniors.

In this way any delays and contentions would be over prior to season start and any left overs would be juniors and fringe first grade players.

Just a few things possm...
1: How do you know that we paid Hunt overs?
Media said a figure, Millward said it was over what we paid, no one has said anything otherwise since.
Thats a presumption on your end.
2: We signed Widdop for overs?
Can you pleas elaborate on how you came to that conclusion?
Compare what we reportedly paid widdop with what the tigers paid Reynolds.... and tell me then you still think we paid overs for Widdop.
3: Hasnt dugan stated, as recently as last year, that he sees his future in the centres?
Is the club supposed to say "oh ok, you want $1.1 million, here you go"?
Would be happy with that?
Come on possm... its called negotiating.
The money saved by negotiating could well pay Packers contract.
4: No TPAs? Im not saying there is, but are you sure there isnt?
If not, then pure speculation again buddy.
All to have a dig at recruitment.
You say you would have gone after Hunt then widdop then dugan.
I can assure you if we signed Widdop in the off season fans would have lost there minds at the club.
He wasnt performing the last few years, therefore wasnt a priority.
You say you would have went juniors last?
What if Luc had left with all the hype he had, and field, and dufty etc etc?
Before you answer let me say one name... JACK BIRD.
Recruitment in actual fact has been first class.
If we lose some players here and there we have the stock to replace lost players.
Your obsession with bagging recruitment is getting to the same level as Vas was with Widdop.
Not having a go at you mate just stating some facts.

 

[saintm]

Look if Field is ready for first grade by the end of this year, happy to have him aboard. If he's not ready, he will the team down, not a good result for anyone except the opposition.

Dufty like Quinlan is playing well in reserve grade. Scoring tries and setting players up, line breaks, great in attack. But his defence let's him down. Field is playing five-eighth in reserve grade and playing well too. I'm sure there is a plan to progress Field but unsure what is to become of Dufty. I suppose best to ask Millward.

No matter what, fullback is a spine position and a very important cog in the wheel in attack and defence. We need a top line first grader to fill the first grade fullback position.

Duftys defence is not that bad ,getting better every week,watched him play today, pulled off quite a few try savers.Can hold his head high in a very average team performance today.

 

[possm]

Hey doc, I respect your opinion however, I have mine. Nothing you have said has changed my mind but that's OK, in fact it is a good thing. A diverse opinion on this forum makes for good entertainment.

The answers to your questions can not be given as a matter of fact but as a matter of opinion, mainly because the facts are kept secret.

What has ruffled my fur is the mere fact that the old boy Millward has replaced a highly qualified Mullholland as recruitment manager. In MY OPINION the reason for this was to find an old boys son a job at the Club and to make it easier for Mary to cope with the Head Coach responsibilities.

No one knows what we paid Hunt because that fact has not been released and because speculation or leaks have put the contract price at 1m. This figure has been denied by Millward however, no actual figure was mention. What is a fact is that Widdop's asking price was in the vicinity of the speculated figure of Hunt's contract. I'd say the contracts of Hunt, Dugan and Widdop should have been kept quiet until the three contracts were a done deal. These are our marquee players and obviously are the most important signings for the Club.

Dealing with our marquee players first means you have the whole cap at your disposal. The cut off price you are willing to pay would never be your initial offer. Ideally, the end offer should be the market price or some point suitable to both parties between the initial offer and the asking price. Of course when player managers become involved, a good relationship with that manager will go a long way to settle the final price in a reasonable time. I say, move quickly to find the contract price and suggest to the manager he might like to find some alternative sponsorship to cover the gap between the contract price and the asking price. Deal done in a reasonable time.

After this you can move through the roster and of course vary the standard plan I proposed according to circumstances of the time. However you can then at least let the NRL world know that you have secured your marquee players which would help in extending contracts and recruiting new players to the Club.

There has been some talk about the failed 2016 season in relation to the signing of our marquee players. To this I say, there was a meeting between the coach, the player leadership team and others with regards to a plan to move forward and become successful. From all reports this meeting was successful and agreement on the plan was unanimous. All involved believed in the new 'power game plan' and the ability of our players to carry-out the ideas and structures of this plan. All involved believed this plan would lead to a successful season.

This being the case, of course recruitment should assume the team would be successful and this success would bring attention form other clubs on any unsigned players. Thus my reason why recruitment should have moved quickly to sign - at a negotiated price - our marquee players and then move down the chain in a careful way with the salary cap balance at the fore.

Doc, I really don't mind if you disagree with the words above in fact I welcome the words of a forum member like yourself who thinks about his/her post and backs up their opinion with substance.

 

[coast_dragons]

I have to say possm i totally disagree with everything you have said.

Moses is getting a million a year and widdop is getting less so overs hardly.
Dugan wants more then he is worth and will soon find out he may have to take less.
Packer wants to stay has said as much and they are negotiating with him at present.
Favour juniors you say so you would rather the club lose players like De Belin then have a whinge when they are gone.
This TPA you keep banging on about how on earth do you know what the in's and outs of Third Party Payments i don't and i would hazard to say you don't either.
Lafai did sfa last year so holding back this year makes perfect sense.
Mann played well last year but until they find him a spot he may just have to move on.

The last couple of years the team was terrible and just because players have improved doesn't mean you don't just jump in and sign them based on a few games.

You seem to have an issue with Millward but don't let that get in the way of the facts.

 

[Dragon Revival]

Our backline depth is pathetic so we need to keep Lafai and Mann as there is no one else. We need an electifying
centre/winger as our wingers are slow coaches.

 

[coast_dragons]

Our backline depth is pathetic so we need to keep Lafai and Mann as there is no one else. We need an electifying
centre/winger as our wingers are slow coaches.

The club has alot of good young players coming through so saying its pathetic isn't quite right.

Players will be moved on at the end of the year KFFL is an example he shouldn't be retained so players like Garrick can be brought forward.

With the way the junior system is being revamped next year alot of clubs will be in the same boat.

 

[The Doc]

Hey doc, I respect your opinion however, I have mine. Nothing you have said has changed my mind but that's OK, in fact it is a good thing. A diverse opinion on this forum makes for good entertainment.

The answers to your questions can not be given as a matter of fact but as a matter of opinion, mainly because the facts are kept secret.

What has ruffled my fur is the mere fact that the old boy Millward has replaced a highly qualified Mullholland as recruitment manager. In MY OPINION the reason for this was to find an old boys son a job at the Club and to make it easier for Mary to cope with the Head Coach responsibilities.

No one knows what we paid Hunt because that fact has not been released and because speculation or leaks have put the contract price at 1m. This figure has been denied by Millward however, no actual figure was mention. What is a fact is that Widdop's asking price was in the vicinity of the speculated figure of Hunt's contract. I'd say the contracts of Hunt, Dugan and Widdop should have been kept quiet until the three contracts were a done deal. These are our marquee players and obviously are the most important signings for the Club.

Dealing with our marquee players first means you have the whole cap at your disposal. The cut off price you are willing to pay would never be your initial offer. Ideally, the end offer should be the market price or some point suitable to both parties between the initial offer and the asking price. Of course when player managers become involved, a good relationship with that manager will go a long way to settle the final price in a reasonable time. I say, move quickly to find the contract price and suggest to the manager he might like to find some alternative sponsorship to cover the gap between the contract price and the asking price. Deal done in a reasonable time.

After this you can move through the roster and of course vary the standard plan I proposed according to circumstances of the time. However you can then at least let the NRL world know that you have secured your marquee players which would help in extending contracts and recruiting new players to the Club.

There has been some talk about the failed 2016 season in relation to the signing of our marquee players. To this I say, there was a meeting between the coach, the player leadership team and others with regards to a plan to move forward and become successful. From all reports this meeting was successful and agreement on the plan was unanimous. All involved believed in the new 'power game plan' and the ability of our players to carry-out the ideas and structures of this plan. All involved believed this plan would lead to a successful season.

This being the case, of course recruitment should assume the team would be successful and this success would bring attention form other clubs on any unsigned players. Thus my reason why recruitment should have moved quickly to sign - at a negotiated price - our marquee players and then move down the chain in a careful way with the salary cap balance at the fore.

Doc, I really don't mind if you disagree with the words above in fact I welcome the words of a forum member like yourself who thinks about his/her post and backs up their opinion with substance.

Possm.... glad to see you understand im not having a dig at you...
But mate... lol i couldnt disagree more.
Firstly... there was no way widdop was signing anything before the season started.
See article in "widdop interview" and read widdop saying he wanted to prove himself before signing.
So that option is eliminated.
Dugan? Well, dont forget all the hype surrounding Dufty in the off season.
Leilua, Dufty, and Field all had a "Jack Bird" aura about them.
If we lost Dufty in the off season because we signed Dugan earlier every fan would have hung the club!
Millward didnt sign "his" favourite juniors, Millward signed the most promising juniors.
Some have struggled this year against men, but at the time of signing them we didnt know that.
We signed them on cheap contracts. If we let it drag on as you suggested, and left them to last, and they performed, they would have cost us more then double what we got them for now to resign.
Dont forget Leilua had a number of clubs sniffing around him in the off season.
If we lose dugan, id be devasted, but it happens mate.
My point isnt about trying to change your opinion. Far from it.
Its just to say "mate ease up with the Millward bashing every post".
You dont rate the guy... we get that...many dont... and many do.
Mullholland left the club... the club didnt get rid of him to promote Millward.
He wanted to go to canberra, he wanted to... not we wanted him to leave.
And in all fairness Millward has done a pretty good job so far.
At worst he looks like losing Dugan, but he landed Hunt, extended Widdop, got Vaughan, got McInness... signed the promising juniors.
Thats not a shabby effort there mate.
Then again, thats just my opinion.
We are all entittled to our own opinions mate.
Looking forward to banging heads with you alot more champion.

 

[Dragon Revival]

Coast what I am saying is that if we lose Lafai and Mann we will pay overs to recruit replacements who will be no better or worse. NSW Cup have been erratic and Under 20's have been thrashed a couple of times but I beleve they have some promising backs with a weaker forward pack than last year without Host, Leilua and Lawrie.

 

[possm]

No need to go elsewhere, Lafai and Mann should be signed. Do we have the cap?

 

[Dragon Revival]

Mulholland brought little quality in to the Club. Millward has done a good job thus far. There are doubts over the fitness and playing ability of Field, Glymin, Leilua, Masoe and Isaac Thompson which need to be sorted out. Apart from Dufty and Field the NRL contacted backs have little speed.

 

[coast_dragons]

Coast what I am saying is that if we lose Lafai and Mann we will pay overs to recruit replacements who will be no better or worse. NSW Cup have been erratic and Under 20's have been thrashed a couple of times but I beleve they have some promising backs with a weaker forward pack than last year without Host, Leilua and Lawrie.

They won't have to bring to many players in as the likes of Dufty, Herbert and Field will have had a year of playing NSW Cup under their belt which will only be a benefit.

The under 20's have won 7 games this year and for such a young squad Snoopy Collins has done a great job so you saying they have been thrashed a few times is a bit of an odd statement.

Their forward pack is well and truly holding its own with alot of guys people may not have heard of but still playing well as a team.

With the under 20's comp changing next year I see people like Garrick, Lomax and Marsters fast tracked in their development.