Dugan/Widdop/Marshall/Farrah Spine??

[TruSaint]

Dugan is still a great fullback despite his limitations. But there's a reason why FB is one of the premier positions in the team and commands the big coin, is that he needs to carry the team with his skills, almost as much as a halfback. I just don't think he does this enough to command being our premier player. He needs to be having the same impact as Inglis, RTS, Slater, Hayne etc.

To answer your question, I think if we have someone in our squad that fulfils the role of a fullback that helps the team win ( without necessarily having great individual stats), then yes, I believe our team will benefit with him playing centre. Lachlan Coote is a great example of this. Not flash, just helps his team win,

Whether Mann can fill this role remains to be seen. But would be nice to find out.

Fair enough.

Yet his "stats" ( take them as they are ), suggest he was in the top 2-3 FB's of the comp in metres gained and tackle breaks ( refer nrl.com ). Now stats dont make a clear picture agreed, but they do suggest he is travelling well at 1.

Slater / GI etc have had time a FB with a sound spine, as well as an established backline... we havent yet. All Im asking is that the club / coach decide on our backline before shifting a player who has dominated the FB spot very well.

He may well end up being our new "Gaz"... great if so.

God knows we need it. IMHO, Duges is a genuine FB.

 

[BennyV]

Hear what you're saying, but coaching can only go so far. At some point, the player needs to develop these instincts on his own, especially when the player is 25-26.

He's our highest paid player and in reality is on a contract that only pays 150k less than RTS who is younger, faster and an infinitely more complete FB than Dugan will ever be. And he played his first 2 years of FG on the wing. He has the potential to dominate the game for the next 10 years.

When you're talking to this kind of coin, to rely on coaching to teach you skills that most fullbacks on half the money have naturally makes no sense.

Not when it's only a small part of the fullbacks role. People seem to be thinking that "Dugan can't set up players + Mann (theoretically) can = switch them" will solve all our attacking problems, but reality is that Dugan has every other necessary skill of a fullback nearly perfected, most of which require far more natural instinct than timing a pass:

-Incredibly destructive ball runner and tackle breaker.
-Positionally brilliant in defense, particularly on our own goal line
-Outstanding 1 on 1 defender
-Very tough to beat under the high ball
-Strong carries when our team is coming from our danger zone

I'm excited to see how Mann goes in his natural position, but in how many of these areas does Mann come closer to Dugan? At first guess, not many. So to eliminate so many of Dugans traits and potentially sacrifice someone who is brilliant in so many key areas of being a fullback just because you can't teach that person to time a pass (or come up with a structure that uses his strengths and has someone else throwing the pass) is, as I first alluded to, weak coaching.

 

[Saints Forever]

Not when it's only a small part of the fullbacks role. People seem to be thinking that "Dugan can't set up players + Mann (theoretically) can = switch them" will solve all our attacking problems, but reality is that Dugan has every other necessary skill of a fullback nearly perfected, most of which require far more natural instinct than timing a pass:

-Incredibly destructive ball runner and tackle breaker.
-Positionally brilliant in defense, particularly on our own goal line
-Outstanding 1 on 1 defender
-Very tough to beat under the high ball
-Strong carries when our team is coming from our danger zone

I'm excited to see how Mann goes in his natural position, but in how many of these areas does Mann come closer to Dugan? At first guess, not many. So to eliminate so many of Dugans traits and potentially sacrifice someone who is brilliant in so many key areas of being a fullback just because you can't teach that person to time a pass (or come up with a structure that uses his strengths and has someone else throwing the pass) is, as I first alluded to, weak coaching.

Gotta say he is everything you have described and he has been outstanding playing for us this season.

What he now lacks is that additional yard of speed and elusiveness as a returner of kicks that he had at Canberra,

He has no idea when to pass the football particularly when he finds himself in space.

Guges is very courageous, but even his mother would appreciate there are things he could do better.

 

[giboz71]

Not when it's only a small part of the fullbacks role. People seem to be thinking that "Dugan can't set up players + Mann (theoretically) can = switch them" will solve all our attacking problems, but reality is that Dugan has every other necessary skill of a fullback nearly perfected, most of which require far more natural instinct than timing a pass:

-Incredibly destructive ball runner and tackle breaker.
-Positionally brilliant in defense, particularly on our own goal line
-Outstanding 1 on 1 defender
-Very tough to beat under the high ball
-Strong carries when our team is coming from our danger zone

I'm excited to see how Mann goes in his natural position, but in how many of these areas does Mann come closer to Dugan? At first guess, not many. So to eliminate so many of Dugans traits and potentially sacrifice someone who is brilliant in so many key areas of being a fullback just because you can't teach that person to time a pass (or come up with a structure that uses his strengths and has someone else throwing the pass) is, as I first alluded to, weak coaching.

Agreed.

But where good coaching will add the most value will be to utilise Dugan in a different way that still takes advantage of his terrific running skills, whilst solving where his weaknesses are.

Mann to fullback, Dugan to centre can achieve this.

I think devoting coaching time to this pursuit (as opposed to teaching Dugan the basics of fullback play) will eventually add more value IMHO.

 

[TruSaint]

Not when it's only a small part of the fullbacks role. People seem to be thinking that "Dugan can't set up players + Mann (theoretically) can = switch them" will solve all our attacking problems, but reality is that Dugan has every other necessary skill of a fullback nearly perfected, most of which require far more natural instinct than timing a pass:

-Incredibly destructive ball runner and tackle breaker.
-Positionally brilliant in defense, particularly on our own goal line
-Outstanding 1 on 1 defender
-Very tough to beat under the high ball
-Strong carries when our team is coming from our danger zone

I'm excited to see how Mann goes in his natural position, but in how many of these areas does Mann come closer to Dugan? At first guess, not many. So to eliminate so many of Dugans traits and potentially sacrifice someone who is brilliant in so many key areas of being a fullback just because you can't teach that person to time a pass (or come up with a structure that uses his strengths and has someone else throwing the pass) is, as I first alluded to, weak coaching.

Often overlooked ( bold ).

 

[BennyV]

Agreed.

But where good coaching will add the most value will be to utilise Dugan in a different way that still takes advantage of his terrific running skills, whilst solving where his weaknesses are.

Mann to fullback, Dugan to centre can achieve this.

I think devoting coaching time to this pursuit (as opposed to teaching Dugan the basics of fullback play) will eventually add more value IMHO.

You achieve one small advantage, while sacrificing all the other brilliant aspects in Dugans role as fullback (as I listed above). You also lose out on around half of Dugans potency in attack by restricting him to one side is the field.

I agree that good coaching would utilise his running game and avoid him having to pass. But there are ways to do that without eliminating the other advantages in his game. For example, combine Benji and Widdop more often, use a hooker with some direction to move the team around rhe park, use the centres as 'sweepers' and so on. But its poor to try and expect him to play that ball playing role without coaching him to time his passing (as they did in 2015) OR just swap him and lose all the other advantages in having a top line fullback (as they want to in 2016). Its solving one problem but creating so many more, and overall we will lose a hell of a lot.

 

[BennyV]

Often overlooked ( bold ).

Mostly on this forum ;-)

 

[Saints Forever]

Often overlooked ( bold ).

4 of those 5 attributes aptly describes a top back rower !

 

[giboz71]

Well it's conjecture till pre season when we see what Mary has in mind. The ideal solution would be to leave Dugan at fullback and he develop a passing game, but have my doubts about this.

All I know is, he was fullback for an attack that was 2nd last in the comp and I know for a fact we'll never win a comp with those stats. We've learnt from the Steve Price era that dishing up the same rubbish, closing your eyes and hoping for the best without changing anything achieves nothing.

Recruiting Mann gives us options to try a few things. We'd be mad not to at least give it a go.

 

[BennyV]

Well it's conjecture till pre season when we see what Mary has in mind. The ideal solution would be to leave Dugan at fullback and he develop a passing game, but have my doubts about this.

All I know is, he was fullback for an attack that was 2nd last in the comp and I know for a fact we'll never win a comp with those stats. We've learnt from the Steve Price era that dishing up the same rubbish, closing your eyes and hoping for the best without changing anything achieves nothing.

Recruiting Mann gives us options to try a few things. We'd be mad not to at least give it a go.

We also learnt from the Steve Price era that good or bad coaching can make a world of difference. I'm on board with Mary, but he needs some better support staff than what he had this year, particularly someone who can coach attacking structures into our team. That will make more difference than shuffling players.

 

[thestevo888]

Not when it's only a small part of the fullbacks role. People seem to be thinking that "Dugan can't set up players + Mann (theoretically) can = switch them" will solve all our attacking problems, but reality is that Dugan has every other necessary skill of a fullback nearly perfected, most of which require far more natural instinct than timing a pass:

-Incredibly destructive ball runner and tackle breaker.
-Positionally brilliant in defense, particularly on our own goal line
-Outstanding 1 on 1 defender
-Very tough to beat under the high ball
-Strong carries when our team is coming from our danger zone

I'm excited to see how Mann goes in his natural position, but in how many of these areas does Mann come closer to Dugan? At first guess, not many. So to eliminate so many of Dugans traits and potentially sacrifice someone who is brilliant in so many key areas of being a fullback just because you can't teach that person to time a pass (or come up with a structure that uses his strengths and has someone else throwing the pass) is, as I first alluded to, weak coaching.

Great post. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I would just add that switching Dugan to centre eliminates his ability to do some of these things anyway. For instance:

1. Incredibly destructive ball runner and tackle breaker.
2. Strong carries when our team is coming from our danger zone

He still has the opportunity to do this from centre - and in fact, I would think he could be even more damaging running on to a well timed pass with the opposition on the back foot than he is with half a dozen defenders ringing around him as is the case with kick returns.
I would also think that moving him to centre will increase his longevity. He's a tough hombre but the way he plays the game, coupled with his representative commitments means that there's a pretty massive potential for injury. I'm sure I'm not alone in holding my breath most weeks when he stays down after throwing his body on the line. How long is he going to be able to do this?

As a centre, he could play a Justin Hodges type role, taking hitups or dummy half runs from deep inside our zone, thus taking the pressure off the forwards.
OR
This is a bit left field, and I'm totally prepared to be shot down, but is there a structural reason why he couldn't switch with a winger in defence, either for the whole set or on the last couple of tackles, and be available for a kick return that way? Would also utilize his ability under the high ball.

You're right about his defence, though - no sure too many players in the game save more tries than he does.

Anyway, I think giving it a shot - if indeed the rumour is true - is a worthwhile exercise, even if it's just for the trials. It's not like Duges will forget how to play FB if he spends a few games away from there and then slots back. Whether it would be more of a challenge for the team as a whole to adjust to different structures (ie going from a preseason and a few games with a ball playing fullback to Duges) is another question.

 

[BennyV]

There's absolutely no reason that he cant run onto a well timed pass with the opposition on the back foot as a fullback. The fact that we havent been able to come up with an attacking structure for 2 years that isolates defenders and sends Dugan at them is a testament to how poor our attacking has been, and those structured come down to coaching.

Look at how underutilized Mata'utia and Aitken were this year, not to mention Nightingale who could go weeks without being on the end of a backline play. We barely get the ball to our backs as it is. Anyone who thinks Dugan will see quality ball as a centre is kidding themselves. He will be starved.

 

[The Nick]

There's absolutely no reason that he cant run onto a well timed pass with the opposition on the back foot as a fullback. The fact that we havent been able to come up with an attacking structure for 2 years that isolates defenders and sends Dugan at them is a testament to how poor our attacking has been, and those structured come down to coaching.

Look at how underutilized Mata'utia and Aitken were this year, not to mention Nightingale who could go weeks without being on the end of a backline play. We barely get the ball to our backs as it is. Anyone who thinks Dugan will see quality ball as a centre is kidding themselves. He will be starved.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but to be fair Dugan was a big reason for this. I lost count how many times Dugan took the ball in a sweeping backline play then tucked the ball under his arms and straightened up instead of ball playing to his outside men.

Having a ball playing fullback would change the dynamic of our backline big time.

But you're right, without the right attacking structures it's all irrelevant.

 

[LatK7]

I recall Duges receiving the ball on the edge with no overlap. Bit hard to do much there. And the amount of times our outside backs received the ball while standing still...ugh, a lot of work to be done.

 

[thestevo888]

There's absolutely no reason that he cant run onto a well timed pass with the opposition on the back foot as a fullback. The fact that we havent been able to come up with an attacking structure for 2 years that isolates defenders and sends Dugan at them is a testament to how poor our attacking has been, and those structured come down to coaching.

Look at how underutilized Mata'utia and Aitken were this year, not to mention Nightingale who could go weeks without being on the end of a backline play. We barely get the ball to our backs as it is. Anyone who thinks Dugan will see quality ball as a centre is kidding themselves. He will be starved.

I agree with your first point. We can all see it sitting at home or at the ground - my old U18s coach was able to get a group of knuckleheads in Goulburn to run these sort of plays, I'm not sure this can't happen NRL level.

Not sure about the second point though; it's hard to imagine someone as dominant as Dugan not getting the ball no matter what number he's got on his back. Also, I think one of the reasons we couldn't the ball out wide with any sort of effectiveness is the lack of a ball playing fullback - I would argue that Dugan is one of the reasons people like Nightingale didn't see much ball last season.

 

[Get2dachopper!]

I understand the lack of coaching regarding our attack, etc. But honestly, how many years of football experience do Marshall and widdop have combined? 30-40 years? They have both been playing since they were about 10 years old? Don't you think they could perhaps figure it out for themselves?

For what it's worth, IMO, we are really making things hard for ourselves with a fullback and hooker who can't pass the ball well. Everybody raves on about how important the spine is, well we only have two players in our spine who can pass well. That tells me we need to try something different.

 

[BennyV]

I understand the lack of coaching regarding our attack, etc. But honestly, how many years of football experience do Marshall and widdop have combined? 30-40 years? They have both been playing since they were about 10 years old? Don't you think they could perhaps figure it out for themselves?

Of course not! If that were the case there would be no need for coaches. In the modern game, no matter how experienced players are, teams need structure. They need timing. They need players off the ball running the right lines at the right times. And these things come through training in those structure. The experience of the halves come into play when they have to pick the right option during the play, whether that's passing to the right ball runner, kicking, or running the ball themselves. Without players moving off the ball in a proper attacking structure, Widdop and Marshall have no hope! That's why an attacking coach is so important for us right now.

For what it's worth, IMO, we are really making things hard for ourselves with a fullback and hooker who can't pass the ball well. Everybody raves on about how important the spine is, well we only have two players in our spine who can pass well. That tells me we need to try something different.

So the solution for everyone is to move the spine player who is the best in his position? If we were going to shuffle anyone in our spine around, Dugan would be the last!

 

[giboz71]

We also learnt from the Steve Price era that good or bad coaching can make a world of difference. I'm on board with Mary, but he needs some better support staff than what he had this year, particularly someone who can coach attacking structures into our team. That will make more difference than shuffling players.

All well and good, but who in the coaching staff is able to do this?

With all respect to Mary, but his greatest strength this year was man management and maintaining intensity for the full 80 mins. Hence our defence improved out of sight this year.

In terms of coaching technical aspects of the game (kicking, passing etc), I saw no improvement from the Steve Price years. For whatever reason, we don't have that, unlike say the Storm, who transformed Munster into the type of fullback we all want Dugan to be in one season.

I agree with you, Mary needs better support but he doesn't have it right now. So players are really relying on their own instincts as opposed to being coached. So based on this, what are the chances of Dugan improving his passing game in 1 season.

It's why the Mann move to FB makes sense as you won't solve our FB issues with coaching.

Sounds like a cop out I know but it is what it is.

 

[Saints Forever]

All well and good, but who in the coaching staff is able to do this?

With all respect to Mary, but his greatest strength this year was man management and maintaining intensity for the full 80 mins. Hence our defence improved out of sight this year.

In terms of coaching technical aspects of the game (kicking, passing etc), I saw no improvement from the Steve Price years. For whatever reason, we don't have that, unlike say the Storm, who transformed Munster into the type of fullback we all want Dugan to be in one season.

I agree with you, Mary needs better support but he doesn't have it right now. So players are really relying on their own instincts as opposed to being coached. So based on this, what are the chances of Dugan improving his passing game in 1 season.

It's why the Mann move to FB makes sense as you won't solve our FB issues with coaching.

Sounds like a cop out I know but it is what it is.

Agree with you as to fact Mary's best coaching attributes this year were man management and maintaining intensity.

Dean Young was the defensive coach and probably helped lift and maintain intensity.

Reality is we need an attacking coach to improve the structures.

Tim Sheens coached teams always were excellent in attack, suggest we appoint him as a consultant.

 

[giboz71]

Agree with you as to fact Mary's best coaching attributes this year were man management and maintaining intensity.

Dean Young was the defensive coach and probably helped lift and maintain intensity.

Reality is we need an attacking coach to improve the structures.

Tim Sheens coached teams always were excellent in attack, suggest we appoint him as a consultant.

Yep agree with you and all that Benny V is saying.

But the fact is, do we have the appointment of an attacking coach on the table? Does management even recognise this as a problem? My guess is no (otherwise someone of note would have been appointed by now)

So we can lament the lack of coaching all we want but it won't solve the problem.

The attacking coach is not on the table for now but the Mann option is. Why not give it a go, its the reason why there is a pre season and trials. If it doesn't work out, what have we lost? He is still in line for a centre spot if nothing else.