Dugan/Widdop/Marshall/Farrah Spine??

[Dragon66]

So the solution for everyone is to move the spine player who is the best in his position? If we were going to shuffle anyone in our spine around, Dugan would be the last!

Benny you are normally well considered and very analytical in your posts, but I can't agree with you on this point.

I know you are referring to his SOO rating, but in SOO he's playing with16 of the best players from NSW where Origin is a war of attrition. He is the perfect player for that arena.

You would be lucky to find Dugan any higher than 5 in most lists of the best fullbacks in the NRL. RTS is rightly the number one fb in the NRL because of all the reasons that Dugan isn't. An elusive skilful ball playing fullback. If it wasn't for the fact that he is a NZ'er I have no doubt Dugan would not be in the team.

As a competitor he would be the first player I would pick, as a fullback he rate about number 6. As a fullback or centre he would still play the same style of game. The problem with the backline is that Marshall and Widdop both like to crab across the field trying to find holes in the opposition defensive line to attack. Neither are particularly good link players who try to get the ball quickly to outside players so that they have a chance to break clear of a moving defensive line.

One other point, the game now is a 17 man game. With the new 8 interchange rule Aitken will definitely be in the squad, because he would be a great impact player who can play in the back row or out wide. A strong ball carrier and a demon in defence.

 

[Como Connection]

Dragons still interested in Farah if he is available, information received this morning from my inside reliable source. FACT.

 

[giboz71]

You would be lucky to find Dugan any higher than 5 in most lists of the best fullbacks in the NRL. RTS is rightly the number one fb in the NRL because of all the reasons that Dugan isn't. An elusive skilful ball playing fullback. QUOTE]

It's what I have been trying to say on here for months.

RTS, GI, Slater, Stewart, Boyd, Tedesco, Moylan, Coote. They all possess ball playing ability that Dugan just does not have. Check the try assist stats amongst fullbacks.

Since Lockyer made the move from FB to 5/8, the FB position has changed. Most effectively become the 3rd half in the team.

Did people see how much first receiver Coote played in the Grand Final? This allowed Morgan and JT to do their thing. Widdop and Benji would definitely benefit having a 3rd option, which currently we don't have.

 

[The Nick]

Dragons still interested in Farah if he is available, information received this morning from my inside reliable source. FACT.

2 backflips from you on this subject. You're quite the athlete.

 

[BennyV]

Benny you are normally well considered and very analytical in your posts, but I can't agree with you on this point.

I know you are referring to his SOO rating, but in SOO he's playing with16 of the best players from NSW where Origin is a war of attrition. He is the perfect player for that arena.

You would be lucky to find Dugan any higher than 5 in most lists of the best fullbacks in the NRL. RTS is rightly the number one fb in the NRL because of all the reasons that Dugan isn't. An elusive skilful ball playing fullback. If it wasn't for the fact that he is a NZ'er I have no doubt Dugan would not be in the team.

As a competitor he would be the first player I would pick, as a fullback he rate about number 6. As a fullback or centre he would still play the same style of game. The problem with the backline is that Marshall and Widdop both like to crab across the field trying to find holes in the opposition defensive line to attack. Neither are particularly good link players who try to get the ball quickly to outside players so that they have a chance to break clear of a moving defensive line.

One other point, the game now is a 17 man game. With the new 8 interchange rule Aitken will definitely be in the squad, because he would be a great impact player who can play in the back row or out wide. A strong ball carrier and a demon in defence.

So if the spine is our issue (IMO, not enough balance as we have a hooker who cant pass, 2 ball running 5/8s and a fullback who wont set players up)...too many ball runners, not enough ball players...yet no matter what way you look at it, Dugan is still the last one we should be changing! For starters, out of the 4 ball runners, he is the most potent. Then we consider that he is around 6th as an all round fullback in the comp:
-I'd have Widdop around 5-7th best behind Milford, Morgan, Maloney, Foran and on par with Sezer and Austin.
-I'd have Benji well down the list of halfbacks, maybe 8ish? Not a cheap shot at him, he's just not that strong as a 7, as opposed to a 6.
-Rein would also be down around 8-10th.

So relative to other players in the same position, Dugan is still our strongest fullback. We would be better serve giving ourselves an organising halfback or hooker to fix the balance in our spine.

 

[Mr Red]

Dugan is about 5th or 6th best fullback, but would be about 15th or 16th best centre...
so how again does it make sense to move him?

 

[Slippery Morris]

Benji 8th? Wow. And to think he got 2nd or 3rd in the Daly M's count?

Dugan current NSW fullback and was the best player for NSW this season and yet you say he is the 5th or 6th best fullback.

I must have been watching different games to a lot of people on this forum. I am pretty sure Benji and Duges justified their achievements in 2016 and great wraps from the selectors or voters of the Daly M's..

 

[giboz71]

So if the spine is our issue (IMO, not enough balance as we have a hooker who cant pass, 2 ball running 5/8s and a fullback who wont set players up)...too many ball runners, not enough ball players...yet no matter what way you look at it, Dugan is still the last one we should be changing! For starters, out of the 4 ball runners, he is the most potent. Then we consider that he is around 6th as an all round fullback in the comp:
-I'd have Widdop around 5-7th best behind Milford, Morgan, Maloney, Foran and on par with Sezer and Austin.
-I'd have Benji well down the list of halfbacks, maybe 8ish? Not a cheap shot at him, he's just not that strong as a 7, as opposed to a 6.
-Rein would also be down around 8-10th.

So relative to other players in the same position, Dugan is still our strongest fullback. We would be better serve giving ourselves an organising halfback or hooker to fix the balance in our spine.

Agree with everything you say.

The point is tho, how realistic is it to move Widdop, Benji or Rein, Can they play any other positions? Who in our roster will replace them?

Our spine has more problems than Dugan, but based on the roster for next year, the only realistic change we can make is the Mann swap. Rein, Benji and Widdop aren't going anywhere (as far as I know)

It's either that or we throw out the same rubbish as this year and we'll find ourselves treading water just to make the 8. Mann playing centre will not give us any significant upgrade from this year weheras Dugan won an Origin series playing centre. It's been proven to work.

So in the absence of coaching or any other options, are we happy to dish up basically the same attack and hope for the best?

 

[BennyV]

Agree with everything you say.

The point is tho, how realistic is it to move Widdop, Benji or Rein, Can they play any other positions? Who in our roster will replace them?

Our spine has more problems than Dugan, but based on the roster for next year, the only realistic change we can make is the Mann swap. Rein, Benji and Widdop aren't going anywhere (as far as I know)

It's either that or we throw out the same rubbish as this year and we'll find ourselves treading water just to make the 8. Mann playing centre will not give us any significant upgrade from this year weheras Dugan won an Origin series playing centre. It's been proven to work.

So in the absence of coaching or any other options, are we happy to dish up basically the same attack and hope for the best?

There are plenty of decent attacking coaches without jobs for next year. No reason we cant bring in consultants over the off season.

 

[BennyV]

Benji 8th? Wow. And to think he got 2nd or 3rd in the Daly M's count?

Dugan current NSW fullback and was the best player for NSW this season and yet you say he is the 5th or 6th best fullback.

I must have been watching different games to a lot of people on this forum. I am pretty sure Benji and Duges justified their achievements in 2016 and great wraps from the selectors or voters of the Daly M's..

The same Dally Ms that voted Josh Plodson as the best second rower in the league? Please, those things are a popularity contest, nothing more. Benji as a player is great, but as a halfback whos role is to dorect the team around, manage the game, build pressure and so on, there are many ahead of him. He is a running 5/8.

On Dugan...depends on how you rate NSW. Considering NZ currently employs the best fullback (RTS) and QLD holds the next 2 (Inglis and Slater) and Dugans place amongst the likes of Boyd, Coote, Tedesco, Moylan etc is up for discussion, 5-6th best is not out of the question. Its also nothing to be scoffed at, there are a lot of high quality fullbacks in the game and ours is one of the best, despite some people wanting to move him to centre!

 

[Wittenberg]

Dugan maybe behind many fullbacks according to some, but if he plays like he did against the Dogs I would have him any day of the week. Gave his heart and soul. Was easily the best player on the field. Yes he has trouble setting up players but God, he sets up the team!

 

[Saints Forever]

The same Dally Ms that voted Josh Plodson as the best second rower in the league? Please, those things are a popularity contest, nothing more. Benji as a player is great, but as a halfback whos role is to dorect the team around, manage the game, build pressure and so on, there are many ahead of him. He is a running 5/8.

On Dugan...depends on how you rate NSW. Considering NZ currently employs the best fullback (RTS) and QLD holds the next 2 (Inglis and Slater) and Dugans place amongst the likes of Boyd, Coote, Tedesco, Moylan etc is up for discussion, 5-6th best is not out of the question. Its also nothing to be scoffed at, there are a lot of high quality fullbacks in the game and ours is one of the best, despite some people wanting to move him to centre!

Better option may be to play Hutchison/Mann as the organiser/link man. Hutch has the kicking game. Benji to play off bench as the wild card/game breaker ?

Will take some real courage to bech Benji for a Rookie.

Injuries may in fact make the picture clearer for Mary, with various guys given the opportunity to impress.

Am not questioning Duges value to the team. He is all guts and determination.

Reality is we finished 8th this season because:

1) The spine mix is not right. 2 running 5/8s and 2 excellent defenders in Duges and Rein who couldn't set up an outside man if their lives depended on it. Farah could halve the problem. Trouble is he makes my skin crawl.
2) we have no attacking coach and no schemer on the field

 

[TruSaint]

Dugan maybe behind many fullbacks according to some, but if he plays like he did against the Dogs I would have him any day of the week. Gave his heart and soul. Was easily the best player on the field. Yes he has trouble setting up players but God, he sets up the team!

I have to agree.
I know many here have him rated 5-6 in the comp, based on a set of variables.
I see his value and potential as not yet at peak level. He's a gun, gives his all, is terribly hard to tackle, deceptively strong, great under pressure and a game breaker.
We have shuffled our backline for some years now... Trial and error if fine, but I think given a chance with a steady three quarter line, he will deliver.
Just my opinion.

 

[Saints Forever]

I have to agree.
I know many here have him rated 5-6 in the comp, based on a set of variables.
I see his value and potential as not yet at peak level. He's a gun, gives his all, is terribly hard to tackle, deceptively strong, great under pressure and a game breaker.
We have shuffled our backline for some years now... Trial and error if fine, but I think given a chance with a steady three quarter line, he will deliver.
Just my opinion.

I hear you brother.

Who would you choose to play in our back line ?

 

[Dragon66]

Benny I said Duges would be the first player picked in my team, but I agree, and have said many times, it is the mix of the spine that is the problem.
Two five eighths, and a hooker who plays like our fullback, plays his guts out, has occasional flashes of brilliance with the ball but does not have the skill set to keep the blowtorch on the opposition for the full eighty minutes.
Farah would fix up a lot of our problems around the ruck, but that will be of little help to our outside backs.

If the club hasn't been able to employ a quality attacking coach over the past three years when the problems have been so obvious I'm not going to hold my breath that it's going to happen anytime soon.

So what do you do? I agree to keep sending out the same combination and expect something different is delusional. Benji is only effective in the halves, Widdop has form as an exceptional fullback, Mann is reputed to be more a fullback or five eight than a centre, so is he going to offer more than Aitken or Mata, based on his 2015 stats,no.
Duges was still outstanding for us when he had that stint at centre last year. Always threatening the line,collecting crossfield bombs, making space for Nighty, and still being effective in defence, pulling off 20 plus great tackles each game.

I guess the best we can hope for is that, after another offseason, they some how find the missing ingredients that those players need to be able to take the team to the next level and post more points on the board.

Except for our defence and a tougher attitude during the game this year, nothing much else has changed over the past three years. Here's hoping!

 

[Dragon66]

Benny I said Duges would be the first player picked in my team, but I agree, and have said many times, it is the mix of the spine that is the problem.
Two five eighths, and a hooker who plays like our fullback, plays his guts out, has occasional flashes of brilliance with the ball but does not have the skill set to keep the blowtorch on the opposition for the full eighty minutes.
Farah would fix up a lot of our problems around the ruck, but that will be of little help to our outside backs.

If the club hasn't been able to employ a quality attacking coach over the past three years when the problems have been so obvious I'm not going to hold my breath that it's going to happen anytime soon.

So what do you do? I agree to keep sending out the same combination and expect something different is delusional. Benji is only effective in the halves, Widdop has form as an exceptional fullback, Mann is reputed to be more a fullback or five eight than a centre, so is he going to offer more than Aitken or Mata, based on his 2015 stats,no.
Duges was still outstanding for us when he had that stint at centre last year. Always threatening the line,collecting crossfield bombs, making space for Nighty, and still being effective in defence, pulling off 20 plus great tackles each game.

I guess the best we can hope for is that, after another offseason, they some how find the missing ingredients that those players need to be able to take the team to the next level and post more points on the board.

Except for our defence and a tougher attitude during the game this year, nothing much else has changed over the past three years. Here's hoping!

 

[The Nick]

I expect Rein to improve significantly next season.

It's obvious to me that he's a real competitor who hates letting his teammates down and I think he would be dirtier than anyone about some of his misfiring passes.

You can tell he works hard on the training paddock and I'm willing to bet that he's a much tougher marker of himself than any of us are.

 

[TruSaint]

I hear you brother.

Who would you choose to play in our back line ?

Cheers bro.

For mine and again i repeat only based on "what I have seen ".

Dugan
Flo
Aitken
Mann
Mata

Mind you, I was a huge critic if Aitken for a long time, but saw enough last year to think he may be a ripper. Flo ( injury aside ), is a must and I pray he plays freely. Mann, on the very little I have seen seems to be a very astute positional player with upside, and Mata I think has enough pace and power to earn the other flank.

Glymin may come into play, at some stage.

 

[giboz71]

Benny I said Duges would be the first player picked in my team, but I agree, and have said many times, it is the mix of the spine that is the problem.
Two five eighths, and a hooker who plays like our fullback, plays his guts out, has occasional flashes of brilliance with the ball but does not have the skill set to keep the blowtorch on the opposition for the full eighty minutes.
Farah would fix up a lot of our problems around the ruck, but that will be of little help to our outside backs.

If the club hasn't been able to employ a quality attacking coach over the past three years when the problems have been so obvious I'm not going to hold my breath that it's going to happen anytime soon.

So what do you do? I agree to keep sending out the same combination and expect something different is delusional. Benji is only effective in the halves, Widdop has form as an exceptional fullback, Mann is reputed to be more a fullback or five eight than a centre, so is he going to offer more than Aitken or Mata, based on his 2015 stats,no.
Duges was still outstanding for us when he had that stint at centre last year. Always threatening the line,collecting crossfield bombs, making space for Nighty, and still being effective in defence, pulling off 20 plus great tackles each game.

I guess the best we can hope for is that, after another offseason, they some how find the missing ingredients that those players need to be able to take the team to the next level and post more points on the board.

Except for our defence and a tougher attitude during the game this year, nothing much else has changed over the past three years. Here's hoping!

Great post and an excellent analysis.

Pretty much echoes exactly what I'm saying. I think some of the opinions on this thread whilst sounding logical rely on too many what ifs that most likely will never eventuate.

What if we add a great attacking coach...
What if we have an organising half...
What if we had a creative hooker.....

From where I sit, none of the above will eventuate so we need to assume what we have today. Which is:

No attacking coach will magically appear and teach Dugan to pass.
Rein, Benji and Widdop will not be going anywhere.

So where does that leave us? Sure we can trot out the same formation as last year and rely on Mann to play out of position, which pretty much leaves us in exactly the same position. Or we can try a formation that includes a ball player at fullback and a damaging runner at centre, 2 things we lacked this year.

I'm no coach, but it seems to be a no brainer what needs to happen.

 

[TruSaint]

Great post and an excellent analysis.

Pretty much echoes exactly what I'm saying. I think some of the opinions on this thread whilst sounding logical rely on too many what ifs that most likely will never eventuate.

What if we add a great attacking coach...
What if we have an organising half...
What if we had a creative hooker.....

From where I sit, none of the above will eventuate so we need to assume what we have today. Which is:

No attacking coach will magically appear and teach Dugan to pass.
Rein, Benji and Widdop will not be going anywhere.

So where does that leave us? Sure we can trot out the same formation as last year and rely on Mann to play out of position. Or we can try a formation that includes a ball player at fullback and a damaging runner at centre, 2 things we lacked this year.

I'm no coach, but it seems to be a no brainer what needs to happen.

Cleary next attacking coach