Dugan/Widdop/Marshall/Farrah Spine??

[KiamaSaint]

Lookout everyone, we've got another genius here.

 

[Wittenberg]

Hey Vas we both seem to have made up dates according to The Nick. Thanks Nick for the proper one, Vas I know you think it is bizarre if anyone doesn't agree with your idea, but I feel, whether he is a two or three year player or not, that he could be a waste of money. Injury prone, out for several weeks with Origin, and I do think age will become an issue. Add to that his attitudinal issues which according to some will magically disappear when he comes to us. Which he isn't" I know you are attracted to him and you seem to know how he thinks more than others, but loving him doesn't necessarily make it right.

 

[The Nick]

Hey Vas we both seem to have made up dates according to The Nick. Thanks Nick for the proper one, Vas I know you think it is bizarre if anyone doesn't agree with your idea, but I feel, whether he is a two or three year player or not, that he could be a waste of money. Injury prone, out for several weeks with Origin, and I do think age will become an issue. Add to that his attitudinal issues which according to some will magically disappear when he comes to us. Which he isn't" I know you are attracted to him and you seem to know how he thinks more than others, but loving him doesn't necessarily make it right.

What exactly are the issues with Robbie Farah's attitude? Just because the media and his a couple of his B grade coaches are happy to spin the yarn that Farah has an attitude problem as an excuse for the Wests Tigers poor showings in recent seasons.

Funny how he never had an attitude problem during the '05 and '10 seasons. Or even whilst in Origin camp for the '14 and '15 campaigns. It's only during the time that Potter and Taylor have been coaching the Tigers for poor results.

Matt Mundine and Owen Craigie are class examples of "poor attitudes". Hell even Josh Dugan could have been accused of having a poor attitude early in his career when he was notorious for being a sook at training.

With regards to Robbie Farah I'm not buying it. You don't get to be an elite player of Robbie Farah's calibre by having a poor attitude.

 

[giboz71]

With regards to signing Farah, I have said all along that our spine has fundamental flaws - FB with no passing game, 2 5/8's, average hooker. Not good enough considering they cost $2m plus of our cap. I'm not the greatest footy judge around, but I can pretty much guarantee our spine of 2015 will not win a comp any time soon.

Signing Mann has gone some way to resolve some of the above (either as a FB or half). Never been a big fan of Farah, but signing him will make us contenders as opposed to now where we are more likely a fringe top 8 side.

 

[Old Timer]

Who is the more powerful / important long term player, captain or the coach?

My estimate would be the coach and everyone else is somewhat expendable until such times that the coach becomes expendable.

This is where RF attitude issue come to fore and there are many a press confernce with Potter, Taylor and some WT execs where RF looks like he had been suckinhg lemons for a year.

If an individual has to cop a decision for the perceived greater good of the playing group then that should happen but not in RF case he shows his disgust at things he doesnt agree with.

If this is not attitudinal then please explain what it is?

 

[BennyV]

Who is the more powerful / important long term player, captain or the coach?

My estimate would be the coach and everyone else is somewhat expendable until such times that the coach becomes expendable.

This is where RF attitude issue come to fore and there are many a press confernce with Potter, Taylor and some WT execs where RF looks like he had been suckinhg lemons for a year.

If an individual has to cop a decision for the perceived greater good of the playing group then that should happen but not in RF case he shows his disgust at things he doesnt agree with.

If this is not attitudinal then please explain what it is?

Could be attitudinal but without knowing what the actual 'attitude' is, its impossible to say.

For example, was rumoured in another forum that Farah's 'problem' was a combination of outspoken personality and competitiveness. He was unhappy with the teams 'oh well' attitude towards losing games under Potter and made those feelings known to all concerned. If I was a fan of the club and that was the situation, then I know which party I'd be backing.

And regardless, attitudes change. Happens all the time. At the Dragons he doesnt have the backing of board members nor would be hold a senior position amongst players. He would just be a highly skilled, competitive player with a point to prove.

 

[Saints Forever]

With regards to signing Farah, I have said all along that our spine has fundamental flaws - FB with no passing game, 2 5/8's, average hooker. Not good enough considering they cost $2m plus of our cap. I'm not the greatest footy judge around, but I can pretty much guarantee our spine of 2015 will not win a comp any time soon.

Signing Mann has gone some way to resolve some of the above (either as a FB or half). Never been a big fan of Farah, but signing him will make us contenders as opposed to now where we are more likely a fringe top 8 side.

Agree with Giboz71, the spine is currently unbalanced, however:

Widdop Full Back
Marshall Five Eight
Mann Half

is the remedy.

Farah is crafty and has an excellent passing game. Also has a good kicking game.

As for an ego bigger than a football stadium, yes however that is part of his make up and doesn't mean he can't be a team player at Saints. Its all about whether Mary can handle Farah.

If so we would catapult from barely top 8 to contenders.

 

[Get2dachopper!]

Farah wants his 1.9 million. Didn't the nrl come out and say that Farah's full wage would count towards the salary cap of whatever new team he signs with? I'm sure I heard this on the radio. If true, then he ain't going nowhere except maybe to ESL.

 

[Saints Forever]

Farah wants his 1.9 million. Didn't the nrl come out and say that Farah's full wage would count towards the salary cap of whatever new team he signs with? I'm sure I heard this on the radio. If true, then he ain't going nowhere except maybe to ESL.

Think his salary was heavily back ended so it may be argued he is now only worth $500-600k.

Still out of our reach unless Mitch Rein willingly went elsewhere.

 

[Vasilevsky]

Hey Vas we both seem to have made up dates according to The Nick. Thanks Nick for the proper one, Vas I know you think it is bizarre if anyone doesn't agree with your idea, but I feel, whether he is a two or three year player or not, that he could be a waste of money. Injury prone, out for several weeks with Origin, and I do think age will become an issue. Add to that his attitudinal issues which according to some will magically disappear when he comes to us. Which he isn't" I know you are attracted to him and you seem to know how he thinks more than others, but loving him doesn't necessarily make it right.

On what basis do you call him 'injury prone'?? He has played over 250 first grade games. He gets dumped on his head, injures his shoulder badly and is thus, 'injury prone'???

Furthermore, your basic position is that the Dragons shouldn't sign Robbie Farah because he will (almost certainly barring injury) be selected for NSW? What a brilliant idea! I hope you have sent have told Mary. 'Never try to sign any Origin level player." Dragons should concentrate on chasing every Dylan Farrell-like player in the competition as you can be sure he will never be selected to play Origin.

As a matter of fact, can Dylan Farrell pass from dummy half consistently well? If so, I suggest Mary not try to sign Robbie Farah and try Dylan Farell at hooker instead!

 

[The Nick]

Who is the more powerful / important long term player, captain or the coach?

My estimate would be the coach and everyone else is somewhat expendable until such times that the coach becomes expendable.

This is where RF attitude issue come to fore and there are many a press confernce with Potter, Taylor and some WT execs where RF looks like he had been suckinhg lemons for a year.

If an individual has to cop a decision for the perceived greater good of the playing group then that should happen but not in RF case he shows his disgust at things he doesnt agree with.

If this is not attitudinal then please explain what it is?

I don't see anything here except a bunch of assumptions on your part.

Farah wants his 1.9 million. Didn't the nrl come out and say that Farah's full wage would count towards the salary cap of whatever new team he signs with? I'm sure I heard this on the radio. If true, then he ain't going nowhere except maybe to ESL.

No it will count towards Tigers' salary cap. NRL won't register a new contract for Farah that is below market value.

On what basis do you call him 'injury prone'?? He has played over 250 first grade games. He gets dumped on his head, injures his shoulder badly and is thus, 'injury prone'???

Furthermore, your basic position is that the Dragons shouldn't sign Robbie Farah because he will (almost certainly barring injury) be selected for NSW? What a brilliant idea! I hope you have sent have told Mary. 'Never try to sign any Origin level player." Dragons should concentrate on chasing every Dylan Farrell-like player in the competition as you can be sure he will never be selected to play Origin.

As a matter of fact, can Dylan Farrell pass from dummy half consistently well? If so, I suggest Mary not try to sign Robbie Farah and try Dylan Farell at hooker instead!

Agreed, as far as excuses against Farah go this one just about takes the cake.

 

[Vasilevsky]

Agree with Giboz71, the spine is currently unbalanced, however:

Widdop Full Back
Marshall Five Eight
Mann Half

is the remedy.

Farah is crafty and has an excellent passing game. Also has a good kicking game.

As for an ego bigger than a football stadium, yes however that is part of his make up and doesn't mean he can't be a team player at Saints. Its all about whether Mary can handle Farah.

If so we would catapult from barely top 8 to contenders.

In theory not a bad idea but I think Mann and Widdop are both fullbacks from a bygone era. They lack the running power required. The same thing which led to Ben Hornby and Kurt Gidley changing positions.

Beale was a classic example of this.

 

[giboz71]

In theory not a bad idea but I think Mann and Widdop are both fullbacks from a bygone era. They lack the running power required. The same thing which led to Ben Hornby and Kurt Gidley changing positions.

Beale was a classic example of this.

Matt Moylan is one of the best young fullbacks around. Lachlan Coote won a comp more for his ability to play as a 3rd half more than his running game.

And of course Darren Lockyer was a star at FB before moving to 5/8.

None of these guys are damaging runners, but succeeded as playmakers.

 

[BennyV]

In theory not a bad idea but I think Mann and Widdop are both fullbacks from a bygone era. They lack the running power required. The same thing which led to Ben Hornby and Kurt Gidley changing positions.

Beale was a classic example of this.

Running power isnt necessarily a pretequisite of the modern day fullback any more. In fact, only Inglis and Dugan really excel in this department. Some fullbacks use evasiveness and agility (RTS, Slater, Morris) while others use ballskills and smarts (Coote, Boyd, Moylan). Theres no template these days.

 

[hardbaby]

The ability to ball play is more important than sheer power at fullback. A kick return of 15 metres sets your set up far better than a kick return of 5 metres. But the set generally ends in a kick and does not create points. It's great but not crucial. But the ability to inject yourself into the line and hit the winger on the chest with a long ball leads to tries and points win games.

 

[Vasilevsky]

Running power isnt necessarily a pretequisite of the modern day fullback any more. In fact, only Inglis and Dugan really excel in this department. Some fullbacks use evasiveness and agility (RTS, Slater, Morris) while others use ballskills and smarts (Coote, Boyd, Moylan). Theres no template these days.

Hmmmm that's true insofar as Moylan but his future is in the halves. Lachlan Coote is average. Boyd is a combination of the two. I count RTS and Slater as power runners even though it's evasive ability that gets them through defensive lines.

Still, once again I present Gerald Beale as exhibit #1 to demonstrate my basic point. Moylan doesn't have great evasive ability or power but I guess when one's ball skills are as good as his, he still excels. Widdop doesn't have ball skills like Moylans and I haven't seen enough of Mann to say he doesn't but Melbourne chose Blake Green at 5/8 ahead of Mann. That's a pretty clear indication his ball skills aren't great.

 

[BrissyRedV]

The ball playing fullback era ended this year fellas. Players like Coote, Slater, Munster, Boyd and Moylan are now redundant.

 

[BennyV]

Hmmmm that's true insofar as Moylan but his future is in the halves. Lachlan Coote is average. Boyd is a combination of the two. I count RTS and Slater as power runners even though it's evasive ability that gets them through defensive lines.

Still, once again I present Gerald Beale as exhibit #1 to demonstrate my basic point. Moylan doesn't have great evasive ability or power but I guess when one's ball skills are as good as his, he still excels. Widdop doesn't have ball skills like Moylans and I haven't seen enough of Mann to say he doesn't but Melbourne chose Blake Green at 5/8 ahead of Mann. That's a pretty clear indication his ball skills aren't great.

Didnt you argue that Melbourne's use of players shouldn't dictate what we do with ours? That should go both ways - if Mann is good enough, he should get a crack. Although my favour still lies in Dugan at fullback unless we get Hiku or Roberts to play there.

As for Moylan/Coote/Boyd - regardless on where their future lies and what your opinion of them is, fact is that they are all fullbacks and their reliance is on ball skills and footy smarts, not power running. One of them is touted as the next NSW #1 and the other two won premierships at fullback. Point is, its not just about power running. And I'd put Widdops ball skills up against Coote or Boyd any day of the week!

 

[giboz71]

Hmmmm that's true insofar as Moylan but his future is in the halves. Lachlan Coote is average. Boyd is a combination of the two. I count RTS and Slater as power runners even though it's evasive ability that gets them through defensive lines.

Still, once again I present Gerald Beale as exhibit #1 to demonstrate my basic point. Moylan doesn't have great evasive ability or power but I guess when one's ball skills are as good as his, he still excels. Widdop doesn't have ball skills like Moylans and I haven't seen enough of Mann to say he doesn't but Melbourne chose Blake Green at 5/8 ahead of Mann. That's a pretty clear indication his ball skills aren't great.

Coote is underrated, not average. 15 try assists, 12 line breaks and 6 tries. Dugan had 2 try assists, 12 line breaks and 7 tries.

Dugan averaged 170m running whilst Coote averaged 134m highlighting Dugan's superior running game.

It's the 15 try assists that stand out to me. And Coote did that having a SOO Origin halves pairing as his playmakers who both had career years. You can argue that Coote's ability to ball play helped Thurston and Morgan have their best years.

I think if you ask Cowboys fans, they'd take Coote over Dugan as their FB any day of the week.

And most important of all.....Coote has a premiership ring.

 

[Mr Red]

Coote is underrated, not average. 15 try assists, 12 line breaks and 6 tries. Dugan had 2 try assists, 12 line breaks and 7 tries.

Dugan averaged 170m running whilst Coote averaged 134m highlighting Dugan's superior running game.

It's the 15 try assists that stand out to me. And Coote did that having a SOO Origin halves pairing as his playmakers who both had career years. You can argue that Coote's ability to ball play helped Thurston and Morgan have their best years.

I think if you ask Cowboys fans, they'd take Coote over Dugan as their FB any day of the week.

And most important of all.....Coote has a premiership ring.

+1
add to that Coote has a better than average kicking game, Dugan has Zero.
and Coote is probably on 350k a season less...