Dugan/Widdop/Marshall/Farrah Spine??

[The Nick]

The ball playing fullback era ended this year fellas. Players like Coote, Slater, Munster, Boyd and Moylan are now redundant.

Funny how Slater always comes up in the "ball playing fullback" argument. I would definitely argue that his running game is far more potent than his ball playing game. In fact early in his career he didn't have any ball playing ability whatsoever and was pretty error-prone. He's developed his abilities over time but I would hardly consider it to be his strength.

Minichiello circa mid-2000's was probably one of the best fullbacks I have ever witnessed and he had minimal ball playing ability.

Personally I consider the following qualities in a fullback far more important than ball playing ability:

- positional play/awareness
- communication and ability to move players in the defensive line to where they need to be
- low error rate
- try saving ability
- support play
- strong kick return

The whole belief that a fullback needs to be a 3rd playmaker is a relatively new one, and stems purely from following other teams' structures.

 

[hardbaby]

Coote is a fantastic player. They actually signed him to play in the halves.

 

[The Nick]

Coote is underrated, not average. 15 try assists, 12 line breaks and 6 tries. Dugan had 2 try assists, 12 line breaks and 7 tries.

Dugan averaged 170m running whilst Coote averaged 134m highlighting Dugan's superior running game.

It's the 15 try assists that stand out to me. And Coote did that having a SOO Origin halves pairing as his playmakers who both had career years. You can argue that Coote's ability to ball play helped Thurston and Morgan have their best years.

Actually I would argue playing outside Thurston helped Coote have his best year. His try assists come off the back of the fact all the defensive pressure is on Thurston, giving Coote a bit more time to do his thing.

On the flip side, Dugan is the marked man in our team.

When opposition teams do their video work on the Cowboys, most of their attention this year would have been focused on shutting down Thurston and probably Granville around the ruck.

When they do their video work on the Dragons you can bet that a lot of the attention goes towards shutting Dugan down. It's no secret his kick returns and power running game get our sets of 6 on the front foot

I think if you ask Cowboys fans, they'd take Coote over Dugan as their FB any day of the week.

And most important of all.....Coote has a premiership ring.

Of course they would, he's just won a premiership. But they haven't had the benefit of seeing how dangerous Dugan would be playing off arguably the greatest halfback of all time.

Dugan > Coote

 

[BennyV]

The ball playing fullback era ended this year fellas. Players like Coote, Slater, Munster, Boyd and Moylan are now redundant.

Im not sure if you're takingthe oiss, but what are you basing this on?!

 

[giboz71]

Actually I would argue playing outside Thurston helped Coote have his best year. His try assists come off the back of the fact all the defensive pressure is on Thurston, giving Coote a bit more time to do his thing.

On the flip side, Dugan is the marked man in our team.

When opposition teams do their video work on the Cowboys, most of their attention this year would have been focused on shutting down Thurston and probably Granville around the ruck.

When they do their video work on the Dragons you can bet that a lot of the attention goes towards shutting Dugan down. It's no secret his kick returns and power running game get our sets of 6 on the front foot



Of course they would, he's just won a premiership. But they haven't had the benefit of seeing how dangerous Dugan would be playing off arguably the greatest halfback of all time.

Dugan > Coote

Beg to differ.

Thurston had a phenomenal year - Premiership, Clive Churchill,, Dally M, Golden Boot. Even by his lofty standards, he couldn't have achieved any more.

As for defences shutting down Thurston, are you sure about that? The bloke had 28 try assists, next best was Benji on 22. He was far and away the most effective playmaker in the comp. Coincidentally, he achieved this in Coote's first year with the team when he had a foil ball playing from FB (something Morgan couldn't do in previous years).

Its an interesting debate, but I think Coote had a bigger impact on Thurston's year than the other way around.

 

[BrissyRedV]

Im not sure if you're takingthe oiss, but what are you basing this on?!

Taking the piss mate.

 

[Old Timer]

The Nick

You suggest my earlier post 845 was in your opinion assumptions this may help clarify things for you.

The coach is more powerful than the players and players are answerable to him not vice versa.

Regardless of whether the coach is good or bad, a winner or loser, coaches in the style the players want or not he should have 100% loyalty from the players and especially the captain.

Any behaviour that presents less than a united front is contrary to the best interests of the club or the playing group.

If you consider RF actions / behaviour reasonable then what would you say if he came to St GI, had a disagreement with PM and then carried on the same way as he has done recently?

Plenty of post game interviews and dressing room shots have shown him in poor light when things aren't going the way he wants it to be.

When St GI had its considerable coaching issues with NB and SP non of our captains ever conducted themselves in the divisive, obtuse, petulant manner that RF has with the present or previous coach at WT.

Team sport require team players & RF has not demonstrated at club level that he can consistently put other peoples interests ahead of his own.

Two newish coaches learning their craft have earn't the ire of RF so why would it be any different for PM?

Anyone who thinks we will be winners and therefore grinners and he will be well behaved is drawing the wrong conclusion. Win lose or draw his coaches deserved better behaviour and loyalty from him.

 

[The Nick]

Beg to differ.

Thurston had a phenomenal year - Premiership, Clive Churchill,, Dally M, Golden Boot. Even by his lofty standards, he couldn't have achieved any more.

As for defences shutting down Thurston, are you sure about that? The bloke had 28 try assists, next best was Benji on 22. He was far and away the most effective playmaker in the comp. Coincidentally, he achieved this in Coote's first year with the team when he had a foil ball playing from FB (something Morgan couldn't do in previous years).

Its an interesting debate, but I think Coote had a bigger impact on Thurston's year than the other way around.

I think you need to re-read my post and try again.

 

[BrissyRedV]

Funny how Slater always comes up in the "ball playing fullback" argument. I would definitely argue that his running game is far more potent than his ball playing game. In fact early in his career he didn't have any ball playing ability whatsoever and was pretty error-prone. He's developed his abilities over time but I would hardly consider it to be his strength.

Minichiello circa mid-2000's was probably one of the best fullbacks I have ever witnessed and he had minimal ball playing ability.

Personally I consider the following qualities in a fullback far more important than ball playing ability:

- positional play/awareness
- communication and ability to move players in the defensive line to where they need to be
- low error rate
- try saving ability
- support play
- strong kick return

The whole belief that a fullback needs to be a 3rd playmaker is a relatively new one, and stems purely from following other teams' structures.

Slater has developed as the game has developed. His running game has arguably improved as he has brought passing into his game. The ability to draw and pass puts the opposition in 2 minds as what the player may do.

Sure, a fullback should have most of those qualities. But the game is changing, defensive structures are changing and we need to keep up with the rest. The better attacking sides have those fullbacks like Slater, Coote and Boyd who have that ability to pass the ball at the line and select the right option. The Dugan does not possess these abilities and at 26 is unlikely to develop them. I am not blaming him for our attacking woes this season because I think our pack as a whole is more to blame, but on those sweeping plays the ball and the play more often then not died in his hands.

 

[Vasilevsky]

Didnt you argue that Melbourne's use of players shouldn't dictate what we do with ours? That should go both ways - if Mann is good enough, he should get a crack. Although my favour still lies in Dugan at fullback unless we get Hiku or Roberts to play there.

As for Moylan/Coote/Boyd - regardless on where their future lies and what your opinion of them is, fact is that they are all fullbacks and their reliance is on ball skills and footy smarts, not power running. One of them is touted as the next NSW #1 and the other two won premierships at fullback. Point is, its not just about power running. And I'd put Widdops ball skills up against Coote or Boyd any day of the week!

Not exactly. I argued that just because he came from Melbourne, homies with an inferiority complex vis-a-vis those ******* shouldn't automatically consider him superior to players like Aitken and Matautai. Having said that, I am certainly in favor of Mann or any other player on the books getting a chance to impress in the position which suits them and the team best.

From what I have seen of his running game, he needs to put on several kgs of muscle and some extra pace. As for a ball player, I can't offer an opinion. Never seen him play but he is turning 23 next year and Melbourne opted for a aging journeyman to play 5/8 in front of Mann.

I'm looking forward to seeing various combinations tried out in the trails but from what I have seen, I doubt Mann will be a permanent fixture in the top 17. If I'm wrong I will be the first and happiest one to admit you homies are much smarter than me.

I doubt I will be proven wrong.

 

[The Nick]

The Nick

You suggest my earlier post 845 was in your opinion assumptions this may help clarify things for you.

The coach is more powerful than the players and players are answerable to him not vice versa.

Regardless of whether the coach is good or bad, a winner or loser, coaches in the style the players want or not he should have 100% loyalty from the players and especially the captain.

Any behaviour that presents less than a united front is contrary to the best interests of the club or the playing group.

If you consider RF actions / behaviour reasonable then what would you say if he came to St GI, had a disagreement with PM and then carried on the same way as he has done recently?

Plenty of post game interviews and dressing room shots have shown him in poor light when things aren't going the way he wants it to be.

When St GI had its considerable coaching issues with NB and SP non of our captains ever conducted themselves in the divisive, obtuse, petulant manner that RF has with the present or previous coach at WT.

Team sport require team players & RF has not demonstrated at club level that he can consistently put other peoples interests ahead of his own.

Two newish coaches learning their craft have earn't the ire of RF so why would it be any different for PM?

Anyone who thinks we will be winners and therefore grinners and he will be well behaved is drawing the wrong conclusion. Win lose or draw his coaches deserved better behaviour and loyalty from him.

I don't know how Robbie could have handled this situation better? He didn't ask to be released, the club came to him and asked him to find another home to avoid paying him what he was owed AFTER he had taken pay cuts to keep the club under the cap.

Please give me an example of his "divisive, obtuse, petulant manner"? I'm yet to see any of it! I've read plenty of speculation driven largely from Wests Tigers when they tried to move him on, but yet to actually see or be told of anything concrete. This is a class example of an assumption on your part.

To suggest that "Plenty of post game interviews and dressing room shots have shown him in poor light when things aren't going the way he wants it to be." This is also an assumption on your part. However you may be a mind reader or an expert in body language I'm not sure? However it is common knowledge that Farah is highly competitive and losing often gets the better of him. Benji Marshall confirmed as much on NRL 360 this year. I know right, being highly competitive is a shitty trait to have in an elite althlete...

 

[The Nick]

Slater has developed as the game has developed. His running game has arguably improved as he has brought passing into his game. The ability to draw and pass puts the opposition in 2 minds as what the player may do.

Sure, a fullback should have most of those qualities. But the game is changing, defensive structures are changing and we need to keep up with the rest. The better attacking sides have those fullbacks like Slater, Coote and Boyd who have that ability to pass the ball at the line and select the right option. The Dugan does not possess these abilities and at 26 is unlikely to develop them. I am not blaming him for our attacking woes this season because I think our pack as a whole is more to blame, but on those sweeping plays the ball and the play more often then not died in his hands.

That's an interesting one - how are defensive structures changing?

No doubt the game is evolving, but as Wayne Bennett said something along the lines of the things that won games back in the day are the same things that win games today

 

[watatank]

Actually I would argue playing outside Thurston helped Coote have his best year. His try assists come off the back of the fact all the defensive pressure is on Thurston, giving Coote a bit more time to do his thing.

On the flip side, Dugan is the marked man in our team.

When opposition teams do their video work on the Cowboys, most of their attention this year would have been focused on shutting down Thurston and probably Granville around the ruck.

When they do their video work on the Dragons you can bet that a lot of the attention goes towards shutting Dugan down. It's no secret his kick returns and power running game get our sets of 6 on the front foot

I think if Dugan is the marked man in the team, then maybe we need a different focus. He is obviously a dangerous player regardless but his skills are limited and doesn't make his teammates better. He is not as mobile or elusive as he used to be either.

 

[BrissyRedV]

That's an interesting one - how are defensive structures changing?

No doubt the game is evolving, but as Wayne Bennett said something along the lines of the things that won games back in the day are the same things that win games today

I will correct that. The phrase I should have used is defences are stronger. Play the balls are slower and the teams are fitter and getting up in the oppositions face. There is now more emphasis in attack to create decoys and develop overlaps. Having an extra play maker at the back gives more options on the sweeping plays.

No doubt the basics will help you win games. Tackling well, limiting offloads and holding onto the ball will win you games but you still need to put points on the board and we struggled to do that this year.

 

[Old Timer]

The Nick

Plenty of post match interviews with Potter and Taylor where he looked like he sucked a 1,000 lemons.

Obtuse:
His original and subsequent conversation with Tallis (not a fan of his) re Potter not being able to coach.
His I (think 2012) interview with Johns (no fan of his either) where he was pre warned re the questions and still carried on.

Petulant:
Hi actions in the dressing room with Potter.
Wanting time off from training / games due to the "pressure" after allegations from Tallis.

Divisive:
Lots of articles suggesting he has had links to the demise of Sheens, Potter and potentially Taylor.

Good article New Zealand Herald by Hugh McGahan (who I do rate)

Hugh McGahan: Farah not the victim, he may be the problem

Robbie Farah shouldn't feel victimised over Gorden Tallis' claim of what Farah told him about Wests Tigers coach Mick Potter.

Tallis had every right to reveal the culprit who made the statement after Tallis was being accused of making it up.

The Tigers are failing to quell the rumours of Potter's imminent demise and pressure has mounted for the team to remain in contention for the playoffs. Potter has been under the microscope for some time. The Tigers started the season well but have dropped away.

Last week reports suggested Potter would be sacked after their game against the Dragons.

This was when Tallis was challenged about his knowledge of disharmony among the players towards their coach.

It was acknowledged by Farah's agent that he questioned Potter's credentials 15 months ago but had since changed his mind.

Well, that's all Farah had to say to the public. Instead, he tried to claim it was a false accusation and has stood by his proclamation. He could have killed off this story and settled a horrible scenario for the coach.

The Tigers played as though the controversy affected them against the Dragons and said as much afterwards. The blowtorch was applied to Farah at the press conference and he bristled at claims made by Tallis. He then took time away from training because of stress.

Farah was involved as a senior player in the removal of Tim Sheens as Tigers coach. He has denied this previously but there are too many similarities now to what unfolded around Sheens and his role cannot be underestimated.

Farah is the last of the group of players still at the club who dictated results on and off the field.

Others such as Benji Marshall, Beau Ryan, Chris Heighington and Bryce Gibbs have departed and were at the forefront of the Tigers' player power.

Farah has a churlish and gruff personality and needs to look at how he relates to people. He may be the problem.

There are always expectations the Tigers can reproduce the formula that saw them win the title in 2005, but they have never been able to achieve the consistency required to win bigger games.

Sheens realised that and removing those strong influences to win back control was his only option. It was a last resort.

It was a tough decision but, unfortunately, he wasn't selective enough before his sacking.

It doesn't look like Potter will survive to bring about the changes required for the Wests Tigers to live up to their potential. "end of article"

Of course for some there is no truth or substance to any of it and RF is just a victim of circumstances.

 

[Objective View]

Seems Roosters have dropped out....

http://m.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-p...d-by-jake-friend/story-e6frf3wu-1227623025759

Straight Shooter

 

[giboz71]

I think you need to re-read my post and try again.

Understand your post perfectly.

Your argument is that Thurston allowed Coote to have a great year as defences were supposedly focusing on him. Yet Thurston won every award available, including a premiership. His try assists were 6 more than anyone else in the NRL. One would argue he's had the most space he's had in years.

Unless NRL defences have become geniused, I would argue that Coote and his 15 try assists allowed Thurston the most room he's ever seen.

 

[BennyV]

Given the Dragons already have Rein on their books on a deal believed to be worth $450,000 for 2016

God I pray that's not true...but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest...

 

[saints4ever]

God I pray that's not true...but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest...

Why wouldn't it be true? D Hunt was on 400k

 

[Cagey Mac]

God I pray that's not true...but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest...

Given all the fuss about Rein being a likely SOO option I guess it's understandable.
There's a lot more to like about Rein than not by IMO $450K is overs. Maybe $350K but who knows with a few tweaks he could well be worth the dosh.