Expansion in the next 10 years: Discussing the merits of each team

[1 Eyed TEZZA]

It would be nice for Perth and Wellington to get a side in, but when you look at the options, which ones look the most likely to be successful?

The NRL are pretty determined that the Central Coast will only be in the comp if a Sydney team moves there.

So, of the options left, Ipswich, Sunshine Coast, Perth and Wellington, which ones will likely be successful.

Give you a hint, who already supports League, has massive population growth, massive junior base and all 3 clubs in the state(currently in the comp) are/were instant success'? Also dont forget the NRL want to ensure that the seal up the east coast of Australia.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Not quite true. It expanded... then it went it the opposite way... then it expanded again. I'd like to see the NRL expand, but the NRL themselves have to be committed to it. Otherwise we'll just end up with more Crushers and Reds. Which would be sad. So if waiting for the right time to expand has to happen, so be it, as long as the blokes on top put the effort and commit long term.

thats why i said ' I realise a lot has happened in between'



expansion failed last time becuase 4 teams were introduced at once. As much as i was an ARL supporter , this was utter madness. Clearly any expansion should be limited to 2 teams at once.

 

[1 Eyed TEZZA]

Also, the NYC will be a development line for players. Someone said that each NYC team could produce an average of 4 or 5 1st grade worthy players every three years, let alone over 20's players in the NSW and Qld cup. Unless 4 or 5 players from each 1st grade club retire or go to England, then there should be plenty of players to call upon if an extra team or two are admitted.

 

[Eels Dude]

I suppose though, that is where re-location comes into ED. I don't know WA or SA pokie laws, but are they copping the same pokie tax as the NSW clubs?????? I know people will get $hitty that their sydney based team gets moved to say Adelaide, but at least the name and the clubs history and so forth is still in existence, and lets face it, they will still be playing games in sydney so you can go see them play say 6-7 times a year.

They're not copping the same laws. Just a revenue raiser from the Carr government which failed to recognise the importance to the survival of leagues clubs supporting rugby league and on that matter, any other club supporting their similar connections.

I know what you're saying, but a club just cannot up and move to Adelaide and be better off. However without any proven attendence, lack of a high profile for players, tv broadcasts, media coverage etc, therefore lack of sponsorship results in a club not being able to perform. Melbourne do it with the help of News Ltd, if they hadn't been so dominant the past couple of seasons they'd be doing a lost worse too. Sides like Adelaide and Perth have a much lesser population and thus drawcard financially wise.

I'd like to see League expand and become a truly national game, I just think we may have to wait a few years... even decades.

 

[herbert henry1908]

It would be nice for Perth and Wellington to get a side in, but when you look at the options, which ones look the most likely to be successful?

The NRL are pretty determined that the Central Coast will only be in the comp if a Sydney team moves there.

So, of the options left, Ipswich, Sunshine Coast, Perth and Wellington, which ones will likely be successful.

Give you a hint, who already supports League, has massive population growth, massive junior base and all 3 clubs in the state(currently in the comp) are/were instant success'? Also dont forget the NRL want to ensure that the seal up the east coast of Australia.

They are almost the exact reasons why the central coast would be successful. It doesnt make it the right move for the future of our game.

The AFL are taking risks with a second sydney team and the Gold Coast. But its all about building the right model to ensure it is successful. Obviously if the finances/structure arent in place you wouldnt take the risk. But if you can get them right these areas ( perth & wellington) are much more important than SE Qld and the central coasr at the moment.

I highly doubt 2 SE queensland teams would be introduced at once anyway.

 

[dallymessenger]

Gallop has said that the NRL has a strategic plan but that they want to keep it confidential. The NRL likes to talk down expansion (possibly so other sports cannot preempt their plans?), even just before the Titans join they were saying the NRL wasn't going to expand.

The fact that the NRL 2IC went out to Perth just for a Jim Beam Cup game and made some encouraging remarks says a lot imo.

spot on

had gallop been talking about the titans well before they were in, AFL wouldve tried harder to get in first. now theyve missed out on that market.

let demetriou talk about half baked plans, that annesley was there is very positive.

 

[beave]

But Perth and Adelaide from memory had crowds equal to and if not slightly better than some of the Sydney clubs, their culling was more due to the fact these teams were quite new and far away from the eastern states, more like an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality, people weren't really going to complain about them getting the chop if it meant their team got to stay in. I think the corporate $$$$ in WA and the people over there are more open minded about other sports than the Adelaide/SA people, being that the mining boom and all, WA seems to have a lot of eastern seaboard ex-pats over there, I think they would be supported quite well in not only attendance but from the corporate sector. I think as the corporates realise how much a pig of a game Yawnion is, they will be happy to cease their $$$ going into the rah rah coffers and start throwing it our way. Just my opinion. I think the Reds don't really need a relocated side, Adelaide I think would, but the Reds I think can go on their own and get a team up and running.

 

[Eels Dude]

cant agree with you there. The competition has never been so even and with so much depth.

who are these supposed players we are losing to union? 1 or 2 a year?!

union is still losing far more players to rubgy league than we lose to it. Its just that you dont hear about it as we are signing juniors.

and for all the talk about the ESL we are still to lose any top flight players that are at the peak of their powers ( Lyon being an exception , but that was an unusual case)

Just because it's even doesn't mean it's going well. Last years clubs like Parra barely won half our games and made the top 4, and the Cowboys had a terribly negative for and against and finished 3rd. It's been a muck around the past 3 or 4 years, with a few exceptions any team can thrash any team on their day. We see one great football team a year, the rest are mediocre.

We're losing plenty of players at the top level to the ESL. They may not be all 23 and making rep sides or the most high profile. I believe if you could take the best 30 Aussie players out of the ESL they would almost certainly slot straight back into first grade.

 

[1 Eyed TEZZA]

They're almost the exact reasons why the central coast would be successful. It doesnt make it the right move for the future of our game.

The AFL are taking risks with a second sydney team and the Gold Coast. But its all about building the right model to ensure it is successful. Obviously if the finances/structure arent in place you wouldnt take the risk. But if you can get them right these areas ( perth & wellington) are much more important than SE Qld and the central coasr at the moment.

I highly doubt 2 SE queensland teams would be introduced at once anyway.

1, pokie tax hurts. Dont want more teams under that kind of preassure.

2, more NSW teams is NOT what the NRL need at the moment. There are too many teams in Sydney and most are mismanaged. One team needs to move there. It dosent really matter who, but West Sydney needs to be left alone because the AFL is coming, pure and simple, and Manly need to stay there as they are the only club representing the Northern Sydney area. Cronulla, Souths, Easts or Saints.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Just because it's even doesn't mean it's going well. Last years clubs like Parra barely won half our games and made the top 4, and the Cowboys had a terribly negative for and against and finished 3rd. It's been a muck around the past 3 or 4 years, with a few exceptions any team can thrash any team on their day. We see one great football team a year, the rest are mediocre.

We're losing plenty of players at the top level to the ESL. They may not be all 23 and making rep sides or the most high profile. I believe if you could take the best 30 Aussie players out of the ESL they would almost certainly slot straight back into first grade.

The reason we are losing these players though is because there is no room for them under the salary cap in the NRL.

creating two new teams gives these players more options.

Where would you rather play Perth or Hull?

 

[Eels Dude]

But Perth and Adelaide from memory had crowds equal to and if not slightly better than some of the Sydney clubs, their culling was more due to the fact these teams were quite new and far away from the eastern states, more like an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality, people weren't really going to complain about them getting the chop if it meant their team got to stay in. I think the corporate $$$$ in WA and the people over there are more open minded about other sports than the Adelaide/SA people, being that the mining boom and all, WA seems to have a lot of eastern seaboard ex-pats over there, I think they would be supported quite well in not only attendance but from the corporate sector. I think as the corporates realise how much a pig of a game Yawnion is, they will be happy to cease their $$$ going into the rah rah coffers and start throwing it our way. Just my opinion. I think the Reds don't really need a relocated side, Adelaide I think would, but the Reds I think can go on their own and get a team up and running.

That's the thing... you'd ideally want crowds from outside Sydney to be pulling a lot higher numbers than Sydney crowds because they have to make up in everything else. Cowboys i'm pretty sure had solid crowd numbers even for the first 7 yrs when they did sweet all. Kinda hard to see that happen in Perth,

Just gotta promote the game more though. The great thing that helps the Gold Coast was that after years of having no top level sport up there, all the talk of getting a top level rugby league side up there was exciting. Difference with Perth and Adelaide is AFL is implanted there already. The NRL have gotta convince Perth that NRL is an exciting sport and they need a team, same goes for Adelaide.

 

[1 Eyed TEZZA]

I highly doubt 2 SE queensland teams would be introduced at once anyway.

Also, since when were Ipswich and the Sunshine Coast BOTH in SE Qld?

 

[herbert henry1908]

1, pokie tax hurts. Dont want more teams under that kind of preassure.

2, more NSW teams is NOT what the NRL need at the moment. There are too many teams in Sydney and most are mismanaged. One team needs to move there. It dosent really matter who, but West Sydney needs to be left alone because the AFL is coming, pure and simple, and Manly need to stay there as they are the only club representing the Northern Sydney area. Cronulla, Souths, Easts or Saints.

1. Teams in Perth and wellington would not be funded by pokies. They would need private investment.

2. I agree we dont want any more NSW teams , my point was the easy option would be to put a team on the central coast ( existing infrastructure) , the easy option however is not always the best option.

Also i think there are serious question marks over wether the central coast will accept an relocation team. You cant be serious about the saint moving there can you?

 

[Eels Dude]

The reason we are losing these players though is because there is no room for them under the salary cap in the NRL.

creating two new teams gives these players more options.

Where would you rather play Perth or Hull?

Not really. The ESL will pay more than Perth can offer. The Salary Cap is capped at 4m for a certain reason, it's not going to change by adding more teams. If anything it'll make it worse.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Also, since when were Ipswich and the Sunshine Coast BOTH in SE Qld?

last time i looked at a map they were. Unless someone has moved them.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Not really. The ESL will pay more than Perth can offer. The Salary Cap is capped at 4m for a certain reason, it's not going to change by adding more teams. If anything it'll make it worse.

So why arent we losing players hand over fist?

Perth offers things that the north of England simply cant. Beaches , lifestyle etc , etc. You cant put a price tag on things like this.

Adding two more teams directly means there is $8 million more dollars for players. This money can be spent on keeping players here rather than going to england.

I cant possibly see how it could make it worse. Do you want to explain that one?

 

[beave]

Not really. The ESL will pay more than Perth can offer. The Salary Cap is capped at 4m for a certain reason, it's not going to change by adding more teams. If anything it'll make it worse.

mmmm not entirely correct though.

Teams know that they need a couple of marquee players in the 400k bracket, for brisbane it would be Lockyer, cowboys JT, dragons their cheerleaders (TIC), it just means there is another team in this country that can throw the big $$$ to a couple of players and give other players the chance to have a career in the NRL that would otherwise not have the profile to go to the ESL and give up the game altogether which would be a shame. I hope you see what I am getting at, will talk more about it tomorrow i guess....

 

[Eels Dude]

Also, the NYC will be a development line for players. Someone said that each NYC team could produce an average of 4 or 5 1st grade worthy players every three years, let alone over 20's players in the NSW and Qld cup. Unless 4 or 5 players from each 1st grade club retire or go to England, then there should be plenty of players to call upon if an extra team or two are admitted.

That doesn't mean those players are going to be top level first grade players though. It' would just mean first grade sides as a whole would be that bit poorer. Depth is a bit of a struggle for most sides at the moment.

 

[Eels Dude]

mmmm not entirely correct though.

Teams know that they need a couple of marquee players in the 400k bracket, for brisbane it would be Lockyer, cowboys JT, dragons their cheerleaders (TIC), it just means there is another team in this country that can throw the big $$$ to a couple of players and give other players the chance to have a career in the NRL that would otherwise not have the profile to go to the ESL and give up the game altogether which would be a shame. I hope you see what I am getting at, will talk more about it tomorrow i guess....

Yes they do. But whether they can afford them is another matter. News Ltd owned the Cowboys for years and Melbourne, if not for them they'd have gone under.

Brisbane are fine because they've got the support, crowds and media coverage for long term survival. You can't just plop a team in Perth with no rugby league heartland and expect the same, they need support and long term committment from above. I do see what you're saying and ideally I'd agree with you in there. In other words I'd like to see it happen, but those are my reasons why will not see it happen for a time yet.

 

[Eels Dude]

So why arent we losing players hand over fist?

Perth offers things that the north of England simply cant. Beaches , lifestyle etc , etc. You cant put a price tag on things like this.

Adding two more teams directly means there is $8 million more dollars for players. This money can be spent on keeping players here rather than going to england.

I cant possibly see how it could make it worse. Do you want to explain that one?[/QUOTE]

England has beaches... England has lifestyle. So does Sydney, so why would a top level rugby league player move to Perth unless it was paying overs. That 8 million has to come from somewhere. They're not going to provide top level juniors. The Titans will work long term because they they've got the appeal as a start, and a solid junior league base in