Expansion, Manly and the Coasts

[Perth Red]

The war which saw a phenomenal increase is money coming into the game over TV rights? You know, TV rights - the only thing that PR can point to that makes Perth different to Cronulla?

as I said no frickin idea! The "war" decimated the game in Perth at all levels. Only in the last 4-5 years have we seen the game rebuilding to something like it was pre '97 in WA. The ex president of the Applecross Jets is on our supporters group committee and hearing how the game was torn apart during that period and how we lost clubs and fans is very sad. Still enjoy gloating and rubbing it in Loudtwat, with fans of the game like you who needs enemies?

 

[Loudstrat]

Yes the war, which sent player payments through the roof and left most clubs tettering on the edge as soon as the money started getting pulled back. It's no accident that the clubs didn't start falling over until *after* peace had been declared.

Leigh.

You do realise we are discussing the "value" of the Reds to a TV deal in 2012 as opposed to 1995. Arguing about clubs falling over re player payments is actually irrelevant.

But since you mentioned it............
Perth, Adelaide, Hunter and the Gold Coast were axed by the organisations which funded them and supplied board members.

South Queensland went bust before the peace declaration.

The only other side to go bust was the Bears, quite a few years after the peace and entirely due to building a stadium to secure the future that the NRL promised them - and reneged on.

So even when being irrelevant you are wrong!

as I said no frickin idea! The "war" decimated the game in Perth at all levels. Only in the last 4-5 years have we seen the game rebuilding to something like it was pre '97 in WA. The ex president of the Applecross Jets is on our supporters group committee and hearing how the game was torn apart during that period and how we lost clubs and fans is very sad. Still enjoy gloating and rubbing it in Loudtwat, with fans of the game like you who needs enemies?

I never enjoyed any club dying. Unlike you, who bays about it every full moon, I want all clubs to survive and the game to expand everywhere.

But you who have been advocating for everyone elses club to die so yours can come in is the only one here who gloats. Here you are now having a go at Manly and telling is all why they must die.

We all know you are a hypocritical f*ckwit who hates that Sydney clubs can survive when yours didnt, but I cant work out wether it;s because you are a whinging pom, because you have the typical Sydney jealousy, or because you are just a tool.

 

[Bluebags1908]

as I said no frickin idea! The "war" decimated the game in Perth at all levels. Only in the last 4-5 years have we seen the game rebuilding to something like it was pre '97 in WA. The ex president of the Applecross Jets is on our supporters group committee and hearing how the game was torn apart during that period and how we lost clubs and fans is very sad. Still enjoy gloating and rubbing it in Loudtwat, with fans of the game like you who needs enemies?

And the Western Reds only have themselves to blame for the damage done to the game locally in Perth by defecting to Super League. If Western Reds stuck with the ARL chances are they would still be with us now. Don't blame anyone else.

In 1993-94 the Reds were lobbying the ARL to get in the comp whilst at the same time plotting like Judas against them. A mere 4 weeks after making their ARL competition debut they were gone to Super League.

Having said all that, as a lover of the game it is very disappointing that the game suffers at any level anywhere, and I take no pleasure in seeing what happened. I also feel sorry for the local clubs and the hard working volunteers and innocent players and officials at a local level. But it's just a bit rich you using this as a sympathy card when the damage to the game locally was all the Reds doing.

 

[Perth Red]

And the Western Reds only have themselves to blame for the damage done to the game locally in Perth by defecting to Super League. If Western Reds stuck with the ARL chances are they would still be with us now. Don't blame anyone else.

In 1993-94 the Reds were lobbying the ARL to get in the comp whilst at the same time plotting like Judas against them. A mere 4 weeks after making their ARL competition debut they were gone to Super League.

Having said all that, as a lover of the game it is very disappointing that the game suffers at any level anywhere, and I take no pleasure in seeing what happened. I also feel sorry for the local clubs and the hard working volunteers and innocent players and officials at a local level. But it's just a bit rich you using this as a sympathy card when the damage to the game locally was all the Reds doing.

What you, and most people with little knowledge of what actually went on, fail to understand is that due to some serious poor financial planning by both the ARL (imposing ridiculous travel fee impositions) and the WARL at the time (who were forced to sign a ludicrous rental agreement for the WACA as it was the only ground the ARL deemed suitable) meant that the club was backs to the wall from day one. News were very clever (some would say underhand) in coming in and offering a very lucrative sponsorship through the Sunday Times in return for getting people on the Reds board. This massively split the WARL at the time and key people quit in disgust. This left News a free ride to take control of the board, take over the club and do what they liked. It was extremely sad for the game as a whole and especially the game in WA what went on and having spent quite a bit of time learning from one of the ex board members of the time I can tell you it was a very well masterminded take over by News created by poor decisions made at inception of the club. When you watch the opening game v St George you can see the potential the game had here to make a massive impact and be a success, large loud crowd, lots of noise and support, 1/2 decent team etc etc. It might have taken another 15 years+ but we will get it back one day.

As for Loudy's "everyone hates Sydney" paranoia, cry me a river suck. This thread is about the possibilities of Manly relocating not dying.

 

[firechild]

As for Loudy's "everyone hates Sydney" paranoia, cry me a river suck. This thread is about the possibilities of Manly relocating not dying.

Effectively one and the same. Manly fans have already suffered the effects of moving games away from Brookvale Oval, and that time it was just up the F3. Thousands of fans will be lost to the game if they are moved interstate. The whole idea of moving a NSW team out of NSW in order to add a new team in NSW is beyond stupid.

 

[Loudstrat]

What you, and most people with little knowledge of what actually went on, fail to understand is that due to some serious poor financial planning by both the ARL (imposing ridiculous travel fee impositions) and the WARL at the time (who were forced to sign a ludicrous rental agreement for the WACA as it was the only ground the ARL deemed suitable) meant that the club was backs to the wall from day one. News were very clever (some would say underhand) in coming in and offering a very lucrative sponsorship through the Sunday Times in return for getting people on the Reds board. This massively split the WARL at the time and key people quit in disgust. This left News a free ride to take control of the board, take over the club and do what they liked. It was extremely sad for the game as a whole and especially the game in WA what went on and having spent quite a bit of time learning from one of the ex board members of the time I can tell you it was a very well masterminded take over by News created by poor decisions made at inception of the club. When you watch the opening game v St George you can see the potential the game had here to make a massive impact and be a success, large loud crowd, lots of noise and support, 1/2 decent team etc etc. It might have taken another 15 years+ but we will get it back one day.

As for Loudy's "everyone hates Sydney" paranoia, cry me a river suck. This thread is about the possibilities of Manly relocating not dying.

You cant blame the ARL for something the Reds agreed to.

And you actively campaign to punt Sydney clubs the moment someone mentions club X folding/merging/relocating. You are always crapping on at Sydney clubs having the poorest crowds (they dont) or the weakest finances (they dont). You are happy for Melbourne to be propped up but mention a cake stall to aid Cronulla and you are on it like the f*cking grim reaper.

This thread is about moving Manly on the assumption that it is dying, and even Quidgey n his opening rant discovers that the things needed to make Manly succeed in Noosa are impossible. Doesnt stop you though being the negative f*ckwit that you are. You have even adopted an anti poker machine rant - hypocrisy because a f*cking casino bankrolled the Reds!!!!!!!

 

[SRB_SEA_EAGLE]

Last time i checked , Manly were already on the coast.........always were, always will be.....after the northern beagles debacle , if they were forced to move / relocate etc, i think the existing fan base would turn their backs on the game forever. They are ther most hated team , draw well at away games, are the only team on the northern part of Sydney , and equally as important , have the highest pay tv take up rate in sydney......as well as the most successful team since the inception of the 6 tackle rule....don't think the TV Gods will be moving them ever.

 

[Quidgybo]

Last time i checked , Manly were already on the coast.........always were, always will be.....after the northern beagles debacle , if they were forced to move / relocate etc, i think the existing fan base would turn their backs on the game forever.

Well then it's good that at no stage has thread ever been about "forcing" anyone to move. The fundamental question has from the opening post been about what it would take to convince the Sea Eagles to move (ie. voluntarily). I suggested it would take at least the following...

1. The Commission to seal a deal with the Queensland Government for a new stadium. The Sea Eagles would have to have hiring terms equal or better to those given the AFL's Suns. And the facilities would have to be equal or better than Skilled Park.
2. A ten year agreement for a Sydney season ticket with six games at the SFS, five away games (Roosters, Dragons, Tigers, Rabbitohs, Bulldogs or Sharks) and one home game (Bears). Sea Eagles to get 10% commission on each away ticket sold to its fans. NRL to guarantee express public transport from Brookvale for games.
3. A ten year agreement to play the Bears away in Gosford once each season.
4. A relocation grant. It would probably need to be at least $10m up front for relocation expenses and perhaps another $10m over ten years to market the team to the new fan base on the Sunshine Coast.
5. New management and possibly new owners. Because this isn't a chance in hell of happening otherwise.

So, as a Sea Eagles fan yourself, what's your take on what it would take to convince the Sea Eagles to move? Does the concept of a Sydney season ticket where you'd still be able to attend as a block with other Sydney based Manly fans six games per year at the nearest modern stadium mollify the thought of relocation at all?

Leigh.

 

[firechild]

Well then it's good that at no stage has thread ever been about "forcing" anyone to move. The fundamental question has from the opening post been about what it would take to convince the Sea Eagles to move (ie. voluntarily). I suggested it would take at least the following...

1. The Commission to seal a deal with the Queensland Government for a new stadium. The Sea Eagles would have to have hiring terms equal or better to those given the AFL's Suns. And the facilities would have to be equal or better than Skilled Park.
2. A ten year agreement for a Sydney season ticket with six games at the SFS, five away games (Roosters, Dragons, Tigers, Rabbitohs, Bulldogs or Sharks) and one home game (Bears). Sea Eagles to get 10% commission on each away ticket sold to its fans. NRL to guarantee express public transport from Brookvale for games.
3. A ten year agreement to play the Bears away in Gosford once each season.
4. A relocation grant. It would probably need to be at least $10m up front for relocation expenses and perhaps another $10m over ten years to market the team to the new fan base on the Sunshine Coast.
5. New management and possibly new owners. Because this isn't a chance in hell of happening otherwise.

So, as a Sea Eagles fan yourself, what's your take on what it would take to convince the Sea Eagles to move? Does the concept of a Sydney season ticket where you'd still be able to attend as a block with other Sydney based Manly fans six games per year at the nearest modern stadium mollify the thought of relocation at all?

Leigh.

As a Manly fan I'd like to think no agreement that would see Manly never play at Brookvale would be acceptable. I'd hate to see our club become soulless like the Dogs or 50uff$ who have given up a big part of their history for money.

 

[Perth Red]

You cant blame the ARL for something the Reds agreed to.

I blame the WARL board of that time and the ARL, both groups made stupid decisions that led to outcomes that effectively set the game back 20+years in WA. News were just the vultures we know they are and took advantage of the situation created by the ARL and WARL for their own gain.

And no I don't really care tbh if Manly stay, go or fold (except I would have great sympathy for the 15k die hard Manly fans who love their club). In fact for the long term chances of my eventual club the more Sydney clubs cannabilise each other the better our chances of winning a GF. In fact I am now on board, more clubs for Sydney! Bring back the Bears! I am sure there must be other suburbs of Sydney needing a team as well? Surely Newtown deserve an NRL spot in the most lucrative market for the game?

 

[adamkungl]

If Brookvale ever gets up to scratch this discussion disappears. better stadium = more corporate/advertising money and more fans.

I'm not suggesting losing the hill or anything, I like what St germ have done with Oki Choki Oval and WIN Stadium.

 

[Bro Bear]

Manly stay at their rightful place Brookvale and play their long time rivals at NSO in the NRL, once a year.

 

[Loudstrat]

Well then it's good that at no stage has thread ever been about "forcing" anyone to move. The fundamental question has from the opening post been about what it would take to convince the Sea Eagles to move (ie. voluntarily). I suggested it would take at least the following...

1. The Commission to seal a deal with the Queensland Government for a new stadium. The Sea Eagles would have to have hiring terms equal or better to those given the AFL's Suns. And the facilities would have to be equal or better than Skilled Park.
2. A ten year agreement for a Sydney season ticket with six games at the SFS, five away games (Roosters, Dragons, Tigers, Rabbitohs, Bulldogs or Sharks) and one home game (Bears). Sea Eagles to get 10% commission on each away ticket sold to its fans. NRL to guarantee express public transport from Brookvale for games.
3. A ten year agreement to play the Bears away in Gosford once each season.
4. A relocation grant. It would probably need to be at least $10m up front for relocation expenses and perhaps another $10m over ten years to market the team to the new fan base on the Sunshine Coast.
5. New management and possibly new owners. Because this isn't a chance in hell of happening otherwise.

So, as a Sea Eagles fan yourself, what's your take on what it would take to convince the Sea Eagles to move? Does the concept of a Sydney season ticket where you'd still be able to attend as a block with other Sydney based Manly fans six games per year at the nearest modern stadium mollify the thought of relocation at all?

Leigh.

I'm wondering why you are even on about Manly leaving Sydney in the first place? After compiling your list surely you would realise how pointless and stupid such a scenario is. You may as well embark on a thread about what it would take to get the Wests Tigers to move to Hong Kong!

Mentioning the possibility of one less club in NSW merely gets the feral gimp from Perth salivating chronically about the Reds. Is there any point????

 

[Quidgybo]

Is there any point????

Sure there is...

A) I'm genuinely interested in what others think about the question I asked.
B) I want to raise ideas like the Sydney season ticket which could be an option to soften the blow for fans no matter which club we're talking about leaving Sydney.
C) It's the offseason and there's nothing wrong with having a bit of fun.
D) It annoys blusterers like yourself who can't handle a civil discussion that dares to challenge accepted dogma.

Leigh.

 

[Perth Red]

Sure there is...

A) I'm genuinely interested in what others think about the question I asked.
B) I want to raise ideas like the Sydney season ticket which could be an option to soften thr blow for fans no matter which club we're talking about leaving Sydney.
C) It's the offseason and there's nothing wrong with having a bit of fun.
D) It annoys blusterers like yourself who can't handle a civil discussion that dares to challenge accepted dogma.

Leigh.

you have to realise in Loudys world all clubs in Sydney are running perfectly and the game hasn't moved on since the days of the Winfield cup and clubs don;t have to worry about generating $20mill incomes. Any suggestion that any of these teams that are losing money hand over fist and are struggling with delapidated facilities are in any way shape or form under threat for their future existence will be met with any one of:

AFL lover
Sydney Hater
Imbecile
or any other expletive ladened insult that avoids him having to actually put forward anything by way of discussion points.

 

[Goddo]

Well then it's good that at no stage has thread ever been about "forcing" anyone to move. The fundamental question has from the opening post been about what it would take to convince the Sea Eagles to move (ie. voluntarily). I suggested it would take at least the following...

1. The Commission to seal a deal with the Queensland Government for a new stadium. The Sea Eagles would have to have hiring terms equal or better to those given the AFL's Suns. And the facilities would have to be equal or better than Skilled Park.
2. A ten year agreement for a Sydney season ticket with six games at the SFS, five away games (Roosters, Dragons, Tigers, Rabbitohs, Bulldogs or Sharks) and one home game (Bears). Sea Eagles to get 10% commission on each away ticket sold to its fans. NRL to guarantee express public transport from Brookvale for games.
3. A ten year agreement to play the Bears away in Gosford once each season.
4. A relocation grant. It would probably need to be at least $10m up front for relocation expenses and perhaps another $10m over ten years to market the team to the new fan base on the Sunshine Coast.
5. New management and possibly new owners. Because this isn't a chance in hell of happening otherwise.

Something like that would be close to whats needed to get Manly or Cronulla to shift. But how likely will that actually be?

I'd say not very. More than a snowballs in hell, but not a lot.

Which raises the question - why reshuffle Sydney clubs interstate simply to accomodate the Bears when the obvious solution is to expand with fresh new clubs directly into the new markets where the game is needed?

If Manly were popular in Queensland like the Dragons Bulldogs or Tigers then it would have a better chance of success, but really shifting Manly would require generational change to establish a new fan base, and it would kill off a lot of their following in Sydney. Which replaces the current problems with new ones.

All this stuff will probably come to a head eventually - Cronulla's situation, Manly's stadium issues and isolation, Penrith's struggles with sponsors and brand with rising pokie taxes. Norths beating down the door for entry on the CC/ North Sydney.

But its all a seperate issue to expansion, which is straight forward - Brisbane and Perth. It really is a no brainer.

 

[Loudstrat]

you have to realise in Loudys world all clubs in Sydney are running perfectly and the game hasn't moved on since the days of the Winfield cup and clubs don;t have to worry about generating $20mill incomes. Any suggestion that any of these teams that are losing money hand over fist and are struggling with delapidated facilities are in any way shape or form under threat for their future existence will be met with any one of:

AFL lover
Sydney Hater
Imbecile
or any other expletive ladened insult that avoids him having to actually put forward anything by way of discussion points.

When one of them fall over, we'll invite you in. Simple.

You will be waiting for a long time - Cronulla's death has been predicted for years and they are fielding a side with 3 internationals next year.

Sure there is...

A) I'm genuinely interested in what others think about the question I asked.

It is stupid - already answered

B) I want to raise ideas like the Sydney season ticket which could be an option to soften the blow for fans no matter which club we're talking about leaving Sydney.

Also stupid. Unfair to make all those teams play at the SFS and lose the benefits of HGA. Answered that one on page 1.

C) It's the offseason and there's nothing wrong with having a bit of fun.

Another pointless relocation thread. What a thrilling life you lead.

D) It annoys blusterers like yourself who can't handle a civil discussion that dares to challenge accepted dogma.

Challenging dogma with lunacy is a hobby of yours. As I said, what would it take to get Wests to move to Hong Kong? How about confining your arguments to common sense. Your theme was shot down on page 1 but you keep plugging away. Clearly, you have lost the plot!

 

[bad boy bubby]

When one of them fall over, we'll invite you in. Simple.

You will be waiting for a long time - Cronulla's death has been predicted for years and they are fielding a side with 3 internationals next year.

Actually 4 mate.
Gal
Smith
Toops and Carney
( I wont count Degois and his flirtation with Portugal)

we had 5 this year, Snowden and Aiton, plus a lower grader who played for PNG as well.
For the record i am on your side in this debate.

If the Sharks development doesn't get through, which in all likelihood it will, then yes we are in trouble, that is no secret. People tend to forget that we have learned to survive on next to nothing ( and yes i know some handouts) and have seen off many clubs. The development for us will mean we are self sufficient, nowhere near the big spenders, Broncos and Bulldogs etc, but we will be masters of our own destiny and be able to compete on more even terms.
Just remember, if Crowe or the Penns decide enough is enough with their teams they will be in strife, we wont have that problem. In saying that, I do not want any teams to die, I love all Sydney derby's.
Our game needs this passion, as much as others hate to admit it, Sydney is the heartbeat of Rugby League worldwide. Start killing off more teams and you kill the game.
PS I would love the Bears to be back in.

 

[Loudstrat]

I stand corrected. I forgot Smith.

Cronulla will be alright. Yes they run on the smell of an oily rag, but they survive and compete. There is nothing wrong with that.

I also agree that I hate to see any teams die. Unfortunately some cannot wait for the next carcase.

 

[clarency]

.... People are so dense.

There is a major difference between a team dying and a team being relegated to their respective state competition.

One difference that stands out is that one is going to bring a lot of bad publicity to the NRL, and the other will reflect a professionally run operation.