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Fitting in Ponga and Armstrong when everyone's available

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,171
There have been a few mentions in other threads about whether AOB would consider Ponga in the halves again to keep Armstrong at fullback once Kalyn returns. I think I agree with those saying that Ponga won't defend in the front line, but does that necessarily rule out some sort of hybrid/manufactured structure where Ponga defends at fullback and attacks in the 6 position, with Armstrong defending on the wing and attacking as a traditional fullback?

There might be a few ways to put the idea into practice, but the one that seems the most obvious to me is Tuala defending inside Armstrong at centre, with Gagai defending inside Tuala where a Cogger/Gamble would otherwise be positioned.

We have certainly seen systems like this used in the NRL before, it wouldn't be a first. Not ideal obviously, but do the pros perhaps outweigh the cons?

The big advantage of course is that it keeps Armstrong in the side performing the role that has played a large part in us winning four on the trot without Ponga, then adding the incredible skill set of Ponga back into the mix. To be any sort of threat come finals time, I wonder if we need to take advantage of what both players bring to the table, and if that means forcing the issue then so be it. Armstrong's superb support play will be somewhat lost if he plays on the wing (definitely the case if he's left out completely, as I'm not convinced AOB would actually drop Tuala or Marzhew for him despite the form). But that speed and the way he uses it, can we afford to go without this? The best teams have multiple threats in different forms, not one completely dominant player trying to do it all himself.

At the moment you would have to say the biggest weakness in the team is Cogger at 6, who offers nothing and is approaching genuine liability status. Imagine replacing that weak link with one of the best players in the world. And holding on to everything else that is working. Of course there are other factors to consider, like the return of Gamble who is clearly a far better option than Cogger and does make a valuable contribution in his own right. It wouldn't be the worst call to go straight back to 1. Ponga 6. Gamble 7. Hastings 9. Brailey 14. Crossland if/when everyone is available. But to have a serious tilt at the back end of the season, do we need to be brave and roll the dice on something with huge upside?

If it were to happen, I think AOB would need to avoid giving Ponga the #6 at first to avoid the circus of attention that would follow. Once people have seen it in action on the field it won't be as controversial. Thoughts?
 

Woody90

Juniors
Messages
2,249
I’m loving what Armstrong is bringing to the team at the moment, but I think I’m keen to see how he goes a bit more consistently before wanting us to move the side around too much to accommodate him permanently. Around this time last year a lot of people were saying the same things about Lachie Miller. Not saying at all that I think Armstrong will end up like Miller, he’s a much better player, but just to highlight that a lot can happen in a few games.

I don’t know what the best option is, but Ponga defending at 6 or anywhere in the front line would be completely negligent. I’m not against a hybrid option like you suggest, but if Armstrong were to defend at 6 or play on the wing he’d need to bulk up which runs a high likelihood of him losing speed which is his main asset.

To me they’re both out and out fullbacks and moving either of them would hurt their games.

I think also because we’ve won all our games since Armstrong came in for KP, it’s very easy to overhype Armstrong being the cause of that (the media are already doing it). In reality though it seems the rest of the squad have pulled their finger out knowing they can’t rely on KP. KP’s never going to be able to support like Armstrong, he just doesn’t have the speed, but hopefully when he comes back the rest of the squad keep aiming up and he can be even more damaging from the back in his own way. Despite speed not being one of his assets, Ponga was able to support pretty damn well last year when the forwards and halves were doing their jobs.

Like you said, Cogger at 5/8 really is the issue. Ponga would be able to focus on support play a lot more if he wasn’t forced to ball play so much to make up for the halves.
 

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,171
There's no way either Armstrong or Ponga can defend in the front line at 6. Armstrong would have to defend on the wing, and even that might be a stretch.

To me it's about the team potentially being elevated to a higher level than we've reached. I doubt Ponga's skill set at fullback alone will ever be enough to threaten the best teams in finals football. Our halves are average, but our second fullback is electrifying and offers something completely different. Something that is very hard to defend against. If we were to spring a massive upset I can see it being with Armstrong doing what he is currently doing, plus Ponga being in top form at the same time. On his own, with our halves, Ponga is too much of a sitting duck. He will always have his moments, but we won't be beating top teams in big matches.
 

Woody90

Juniors
Messages
2,249
I agree it might give us the best chance with how the current squad is. I feel it’s on the club though to either find or develop a quality half rather than playing KP out of position.

It’s a shame Pryce doesn’t look like kicking on as he could have been another danger in attack and his strengths compliment Hasting’s weaknesses and would mean we wouldn’t need to weaken KP’s game by considering playing him out of position.
 

ryan.a87

Juniors
Messages
813
Left wing idea …Could the team afford to have Armstrong and Crossland on the bench

Armstrongs biggest strength is his support play and speed

if he came on in the middle around the 30 minute mark (similar to Crossland) and just buzzed around the middle, that might go alright. Obviously would have to defend more, but it would only be for a short stint
 

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,171
I'm all for left wing ideas (that don't involve Thomas Jenkins), but surely this would be even riskier and harder to accommodate than the original suggestion? Is it really that crazy for Ponga to defend at 1 and attack at 6? I don't think so. And then you get 80 minutes of Armstrong attacking like the proper fullback he appears to be.

Also to be clear I'm not suggesting it as a long term strategy ahead of actually recruiting NRL standard halves. At the moment I'm focusing on the end of this season, making a run to the finals and wanting to do more than make up the numbers. For a short stint I think it would be okay to get a little creative with positions. Then it's back to the drawing board in the off season as we figure out what we're doing with Armstrong, Gamble, Pryce etc.
 

slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
7,420
And I don't think Armstrong will be at the club next year anyway. Apparently the Roosters have offered him a 2 year deal, he'd be the clear backup for Teddy there while he is behind KP and Sharpe at the knights.

The only reason he got a run in firsts was Sharpe being injured when KP went down.
 

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,171
Very easy answer, Armstrong will be back in NSW Cup.
Sure, that is the most likely outcome. You don't think it's even worthy of discussion? What if Armstrong keeps killing it, we're winning games and in finals contention, Ponga returns weeks ahead of Gamble (which he should), and Cogger continues to be a handbrake. It's going to be a big call from AOB at that point to send Armstrong back to NSW Cup.
 

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,171
And I don't think Armstrong will be at the club next year anyway. Apparently the Roosters have offered him a 2 year deal, he'd be the clear backup for Teddy there while he is behind KP and Sharpe at the knights.

The only reason he got a run in firsts was Sharpe being injured when KP went down.
What about this season only then, which is the question I'm actually asking and pondering? It's a must-win game, Ponga is back, Gamble is not, and Armstrong remains on fire. What do you do?
 

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,171
Armstrong is a specialist fullback and can't play first grade anywhere else. Ponga at 6 is dead and buried
Easiest call AOB will ever make dropping a backup for the reigning Dally M medalist.
We will see. Much stranger things have happened before.
 

K-Man

Bench
Messages
3,171
A busted Cronk won a grand final essentially playing as an on-field coach. AOB will at the very least consider the idea of how to combine what he's getting from Armstrong now with what he knows he will get from Ponga (in attack) regardless of the number on his back. If the alternative Jack Cogger in first grade, it would be crazy to outright dismiss a solution where Ponga doesn't have to defend in the front line but takes the place of Cogger in the current run-on side.
 

slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
7,420
So to be clear, we've been winning games because of our defence, and you are proposing that armstrong and ponga are both in the team, and armstrong is defending on the wing but playing fullback in attack, and KP defends at fullback and plays 5/8 in attack?

I'll walk naked down Hunter St if that happens.
 

Woody90

Juniors
Messages
2,249
We’ve actually just done what a good club would do. We’ve had a first grade standard backup ready to come in so when the worst possible thing happened, we didn’t fall into a heap like most people outside of the club predicted.

What we need to do is to develop this wealth of FB talent we have across the park. If we want to become a top club we need to be ok with having someone like Armstrong come in and do a job for us when needed and then be happy to see him go off to another club for the opportunity to play in his best position, knowing that we’ll have others ready to step up.
 

macavity

Referee
Messages
20,647
I would play Ponga at 6.

There are a lot of much smaller halves playing in the front line. We are scared off by freak concussions and need not be, just because they happened in a cluster doesn’t mean they will happen again.
 

Woody90

Juniors
Messages
2,249
I would play Ponga at 6.

There are a lot of much smaller halves playing in the front line. We are scared off by freak concussions and need not be, just because they happened in a cluster doesn’t mean they will happen again.

It’ll never happen, it would be completely negligent of the club IMO. One more big one and he’s career done I think. Not to mention the addition risks to his long-term health.

No it doesn’t mean it will happen again, and he could obviously get one from FB too, but putting him in a position where he’s going to need to make significantly more tackles obviously increases those odds significantly. It’s nothing about his size, some players just can’t deal with head knocks like others.

Armstrong has been good but definitely not increasing the risk of Ponga’s health and career good. Actually to me it doesn’t matter how good Armstrong is, I wouldn’t be increasing the odds of jeopardising KP’s health.
 

macavity

Referee
Messages
20,647
I don’t agree that it’s negligent or that he is one hit away from retirement, other than it is a truism that every player is one hit away from retirement.
 

slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
7,420
It's not about concussions, he's just not a 5/8.
It's been tried twice and failed twice.
He even came out after the last experiment and admitted he didn't understand how to play the position.
 
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