Four nations - How the 4th teams compare

[newman]

More radically you could expand the tournament to a 5 nations and continue the current southern/northern qualification system but grant each qualifier 2 years in the tournament rather than one. For example; PNG would have played in this 4N (in their 2nd year after being 2010 sth hemi qualifiers), then try to requalify for 2012 through the regular channels, and Wales get a definite start for 2012 in the southern hemisphere as the 2011 northern hemi qualifier. Play the game between the 2 lowest ranked teams in the 4th nations home ground (where they stand a chance of actually getting a win) and watch interest grow from there. I like it, but the RLIF surely wouldnt go for it due to expense?

 

[DINGb@T]

Teams don't get a crack at the better teams two years in a row but what they DO get is a crack at each other in the interim. That's why the four nations concept is the best - it actually draws in 11 teams with 4 in the Euro cup, 4 in the Pac cup and the big 3.

Any benefit Wales might get having back to back campaigns against the Big 3 can also be gained having to defend their Euro title against France the next year, a closeness of competition that will benefit both nations as they push each other for that cherished 4th spot.

And didn't Fiji beat PNG this year? Up in the Highlands too. I wouldn't say they were all that far ahead. In fact, considering the last qualifying Pac cup was hosted by PNG I think they had a huge advantage in gaining qualification. What happens if the next Pac Cup is held in Fiji, Tonga or Samoa? WIth all their NRL players? By playing each other on a regular basis hopefully the Pac nations will form their own rivalries, then they won't be relying on Aus/NZ for their development.

I think the idea of North America joining the Pac Cup has merit. Or at least the US and Canada (who actually border the Pacific). The winner of the Atlantic Cup could play off against the lowest placed Pac Nation in alternating years to see who gets to be the 4th team in. It's not likely they'd win but at least there would be another regular fixture and something to shoot for.

 

[newman]

Yeah Fiji beat PNG but Fiji had a few NRL boys and PNG were all locals (I think).

I agree with everything that you say abou the current system but for mine, while it's slowly dragging the level of the middle 11 up it only serves to keep a huge distance between the big 3 and everyone else. Essentially they are saying "we will let you catch up to 4th, smack you around for a bit, then maybe see you in 3 or 4 years, after were done smacking someone else around" I think that a genuine, non minnow, 4th nation wouldn't be too far off if they could play in the tournament for 2 or even 3 years running thrown in with a world cup. The sticking point for me is that they would have to qualify for the consecutive 4Ns on their own merit, that means that they have a bit of quality, a foothold to build on. If no-ones got the talent to do it year after year, no loss, we still see a spread of nations having a shot. The more I think about it, the more the alternating hemispheres make no sense.

Wales is a bad example because I reckon that without Briers they are going to drop back to the pack, but imagine that France or PNG sort their shit out and manage to qualify for the 4nations two years running either side of a world cup by beating all comers in a qualifying tourney. The continued exposure to the quality of this tournament, and the WC means that they will improve as a team, and they will put up alot more players up for selection in the ESL and NRL which will again improve their quality individually. currently PNG play One crappy series against Fiji and Australia and Nz toured Europe but didn't play France so both these teams lose any ground on previous appearances in the 4N. wales won't play next year so it's impossible to maintain any momentum.

 

[newman]

If the organizers of the 2013 world cup do....

 

[newman]

So I see the pools have been done. Much better system.

Interesting that there will be pool matches between France and png, png and Samoa and France and Samoa. Theoretically all but one of France, PNG, Wales, Samoa and Fiji should all make the quarters. If that doesn't tell us who the fourth best is, nothing will!

 

[yakstorm]

Wales will be fine... everyone said after the 1995 World Cup they would go backwards, and we all remember what happened in 2000.

Having guys like Iestyn and Briers in the coaching staff will go a long way to ensuring Wales is still able to keep talent, and having two semi-pro teams means there will be plenty of solid Welsh players coming through the ranks.

The majority of their team was quite young, and with the RLEF actually ensuring there is regular internationals for the European nations each year, it will get easier and easier for these other sides to retain talent and build their squads for tournaments like this and World Cups.

 

[TommyGun]

PNG used only one NRL player against Fiji (Paul Aiton). The rest of the team was drawn from their domestic competition. With Adrian Lam coaching them they seem to have taken the approach of blooding some youngsters before the world cup. With australian based players like David Mead still to come back into the side I can see them really improving.
Fiji also seem on the improve, winning one match of their 2 test match series in PNG. I also believe Rick Stone is coaching them in the world cup and Wayne Bennet may be his assisstant so they could really improve as well.
Of the other southern hemisphere teams none of them seem to be playing any games so I don't see how they can improve.

Personally I think Wales have been excellent this year in the 4N. They may struggle for a bit after losing Briers, but players like Kopzcak and Kear have been excellent and with so many young players coming through they could get even better.
In my opinion France should be the 4th team in the 4 nations every year. They have a team in the ESL and ive seen it mentioned that they are trying to enter another one.

The value of having a different fourth nation however is that it encourages teams to improve so they can qualify. This also promotes the game across more countries.

 

[biggestbroncosfan]

Wales will be fine... everyone said after the 1995 World Cup they would go backwards, and we all remember what happened in 2000.

Having guys like Iestyn and Briers in the coaching staff will go a long way to ensuring Wales is still able to keep talent, and having two semi-pro teams means there will be plenty of solid Welsh players coming through the ranks.

The majority of their team was quite young, and with the RLEF actually ensuring there is regular internationals for the European nations each year, it will get easier and easier for these other sides to retain talent and build their squads for tournaments like this and World Cups.

and don't forget to mention most of there players are at top super league clubs like bradford, wigan, warrington, widnes and will continue to develop further. Would be good if Lee Briers could encourage the Evans twins to play for Wales I also seriously think more SL clubs should start picking up Welsh players be it Welsh RU or League need to keep the momentum building for the 2013 World Cup.

 

[siv]

A lot of the issue wit hthe Tier 2 nations is fitness

Most of them play reggies comps

there needs to be a balance of playing amounts themselves verses playing against the better nations

I still think teh following format will work best

While SOO is on

4 Nations Euro Cup (Eng, France, Wales, Ireland)
4 Nations Pacific Cup (NZ, PNG, Fiji, Tonga)

Then a end of season 5 Nations with Australia and the 2 best nations from each group

Then in parrallel a 6 Nations end of season Euro Cup and Pacific Cup to qualify for the following years mid year Cups

 

[NRL-TGG]

The development of the game and performances in each of the three 'minnow' countries since competing in the competition justifies their place.

If people want to see the international game develop strongly in more countries then just the big 3, then these other countries need regular competition like this against the best 3, not just a world cup every four years.

 

[Gambass]

Yeah, we are the least worst fourth nation, great achievement for our guys

More seriously, playing a couple of games against the big guns every year won't do any miracles regarding the playing field, it will help to rise the profile of the game over here, but that's pretty much it.

To improve the minnows, we will need more players playing the professional game week in and week out. For instance, for France it will be a lot more helpfull to have a second team in SL than to be a permanent nation in a 4/x tournament.

 

[miguel de cervantes]

Yeah, we are the least worst fourth nation, great achievement for our guys

More seriously, playing a couple of games against the big guns every year won't do any miracles regarding the playing field, it will help to rise the profile of the game over here, but that's pretty much it.

To improve the minnows, we will need more players playing the professional game week in and week out. For instance, for France it will be a lot more helpfull to have a second team in SL than to be a permanent nation in a 4/x tournament.

At last someone who understands!

 

[langpark]

Toulouse will hopefully enter in the next round of franchises, 2015. This should give them enough time to get their stadium upgraded as well as build their squad up. They will likely spend their first two seasons near the bottom of the SL table, as Catalans did, then after the initial adjustment period, they should be quite a competitive team.

From there, I can see the French consolidating their place as the 4th best nation in the world...

 

[kiwileaguefan]

Australia coach Tim Sheens has hailed the Four Nations concept as a success despite the minnows having yet to record a win.

Since the Tri-Nations was expanded, France, Papua New Guinea and Wales have had opportunities to take on the big three of England, Australia and New Zealand.

And Wales threatened to spring a major upset against the Kangaroos on Sunday when early tries by wingers Rhys Williams and Elliot Kear gave them an 8-0 lead.

Wales were still in front until Cooper Cronk scored the first of his three tries three minutes before half-time - with Australia going on to win 56-14.
The brave Welsh effort rekindled memories of the 2000 World Cup semi-final in which they led 20-8 against the Kangaroos before eventually succumbing 46-22.

Lee Briers, who was at the heart of Wales' near-miss in Huddersfield 11 years ago, was again instrumental at the Racecourse Ground on his final appearance for his country, demonstrating his full array of tricks to set up both early tries.

As in 2000, Wales were unable to sustain their challenge but they continued to play with lots of spirit and were further rewarded in the second half with a try from Jordan James.

Although Wales exit the tournament having lost all three games - the same as France and PNG before them - Sheens has been impressed with the tournament.

"Although all three didn't win a game, the idea is very good," said Sheens, whose side will face England in Saturday's final at Elland Road.

"I know it's tough for them against the three dominant nations but to get that exposure on the international stage is great for them.

"Wales beat France, which was a surprise, but obviously there is some potential there and I hope people stand by them."

After Saturday's final, the Four Nations will be put on hold until 2014 to pave the way for the World Cup and, although the 2012 international programme has yet to be determined, Wales coach Iestyn Harris is keen to build on the momentum generated over the last six weeks.

"We'd like to tour," he said. "I'm not sure what is going to happen but it's drastically important for our development with the World Cup around the corner.

"We've got a lot of young kids coming through who need to play at the elite level."

 

[Valheru]

I get the feeling that France will be perennial qualifiers for the northern hemisphere spot now that they have a professional side. The Southern qualifiers have moire merit but I believe the future 4 nations tournaments in Australia will be at a lower level than that of the northern tournaments due to France being absent and the inability of England to compete down here.

The other obvious problem with the 4 nations is the lack of a tournament the year before a world cup. It happened with the tri-nations in 2007 and I believe there will be no 4 nations tournament next year?

I completely fail to see the logic behind this. Whether you support France as the permanent 4th team or advocate for the current formula, surely it is beneficial to the minnow nations for the tournament to be played every year except a world cup year.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I think Wales were mighty impressive this year and I think they owe it to a three pronged approach that France also has access to and PNG are trying to access:

1. PRO PLAYER BASE: Any successful qualification to the 4 Nations from now on will require a solid base of professional players to pick from one of our two top level leagues.

2. HAVING ACCESS TO THE BIG 3 THROUGH QUALIFICATION: The qualification 'carrot' is essential for forcing emerging nations to get their house in order, put plans in place to develop players and export them to ESL / NRL or eventually plan to have their own club in one of these leagues ie NZ & France. It's the fact that the 4th Nation has to qualify that raises the profile of the Euro Cup & Pac cup and any 4th Nation can say that they have earned the right to be there. It also means that a team like the Ukraine can sit down and put a 20 - 30 year development and elite performance plan in place with the goal to qualify as the 4th Nation (even though by then it would have changed / expanded but you know what I mean).

3. 2ND TEIR TOURNAMENTS: In years when France and Wales play in the Euro Cup together with no 4 Nations carrot for the winner I think you will find that both still find it extremely valuable because the time spent together as a squad, the tough (but not unwinable matches), the chance for the fans to see their team winning and the players to experience winning (as opposed to being beated all of the time by playing permantently in the 4 Nations) which builds momentum for a national team. So the 2nd teir comps are vital for expanding the game and increasing the standards in my opinion. Imagine the next time France plays Wales in the Euro Cup - fireworks! and I'd imagine if the game is in France - a big crowd.

Also i thought there was a really and truly international flavour about this season with England playing France, Wales, Australia & New Zealand (4 different nations on the trot) and then qualifying for a major RL tournament final - it's a good look for the game.

 

[God-King Dean]

I sincerely hope Stanley Gene isn't the Kumuls coach anymore.

 

[Dragon_Taylor6]

Adrian Lam

 

[PRW]

I don't think Wales disgraced themselves at all which bodes well considering they didn't exploit the 'parentage' rule as much as they might have.

There are loads of Wales-qualified players in Super League (the likes of Keith Mason, Ben Davies, Jake Emmitt etc, etc)who I am sure will come out of the woodwork come World Cup time, probably alongside a few NRL bolters and maybe even the Evans twins too!

 

[nadera78]

I don't think Wales disgraced themselves at all which bodes well considering they didn't exploit the 'parentage' rule as much as they might have.

There are loads of Wales-qualified players in Super League (the likes of Keith Mason, Ben Davies, Jake Emmitt etc, etc)who I am sure will come out of the woodwork come World Cup time, probably alongside a few NRL bolters and maybe even the Evans twins too!

Emitt would have played if not for injury. IIRC it turned out Davies doesn't qualify, and Harris has shown he doesn't want glory hunters taking places from committed players.

I do hope the Evans boys change their minds though.