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The Game Future NRL Stadiums part II

Jamberoo

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,331
baselinepanther said:
same

The " marn grook " myth

its been proven in recent decades that no such game ever existed & the assertion it did
totally false ..
even racistball historians agree it didn't now ..
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Tell me what AFL historians have said it never existed. There are historical documents describing aboriginals playing such a game from 1841. What some have said it that it may have not influenced Victorian Rules - that is was simply coincidence that both games have some similarities.
 
W

Wb1234

Referee
Messages
25,930
Jamberoo said:
Tell me what AFL historians have said it never existed. There are historical documents describing aboriginals playing such a game from 1841. What some have said it that it may have not influenced Victorian Rules - that is was simply coincidence that both games have some similarities.
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The afl itself repeated this bs

you should know more about the history of afl tbh

the rules came from an Englishman who got the rules from English rugby

the first game of afl was played on a rectangular field

at least rugby league knows it’s history and doesn’t make up bs


AFL's position on Indigenous history of Aussie Rules leaves game's historians baffled - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au amp.abc.net.au

drwolfmedia.com

Why is AFL played on an oval?

Footy fever is very much alive at any time of the AFL season, as fans flock to support their team on the playing field. But one question that has always sat there unanswered: why is AFL played on an oval? It’s a question that dates back to the creation of…
drwolfmedia.com
 
J

JD-Roo

Juniors
Messages
38
forby said:
Geelong's Kardinia Park is currently undergoing a massive redevelopment. It is like Penrith being an impractible distance to share the main stadia.
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Geelong and Kardinia Park have benefited from a continuous run of Geelong-supporting State Premiers and senior politicians from either side of Parliament for many years now.
 
The Great Dane

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,898
flippikat said:
Is Canberra still trying to get a team into the Mens A-League? Might make a stadium investment a bit more worthwhile if they have a summer tenant as well.
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It wouldn't make any difference if Canberra got an A-league side.

The lack of an A-league side is just one convenient excuse among many for Labour and the Greens, and when that changes they'll just focus on another excuse.

As an aside, I can almost guarantee that Labour would find a way to get a 30k+ oval stadium built if the AFL came along promising a license, and there wouldn't be any talk of needing any more tenants than the AFL side to make it sustainable.
 
B

baselinepanther

Bench
Messages
3,224
Jamberoo said:
Tell me what AFL historians have said it never existed. There are historical documents describing aboriginals playing such a game from 1841. What some have said it that it may have not influenced Victorian Rules - that is was simply coincidence that both games have some similarities.
Click to expand...
Unzip your racistball bubble & take off your singletball goggles for just a second & look it up

theres ample material on this rubbish claim being exposed
 
Ozzi_78

Ozzi_78

First Grade
Messages
6,677
Add a 17th team in view of an 18th to make an extra game, but the grim reaper is coming to kills Sydney clubs so we have less games. Righto.
 
The Great Dane

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,898
Jamberoo said:
Tell me what AFL historians have said it never existed. There are historical documents describing aboriginals playing such a game from 1841. What some have said it that it may have not influenced Victorian Rules - that is was simply coincidence that both games have some similarities.
Click to expand...
baselinepanther said:
Unzip your racistball bubble & take off your singletball goggles for just a second & look it up

theres ample material on this rubbish claim being exposed
Click to expand...
No historian I know of claims that Marn Grook, or other indigenous ball games, didn't exist. Any that do make that claim are probably crackpots because there's ample historical evidence that it existed.

You will see historians debate whether or not Marn Grook was a competitive sport with a universally accepted set of rules, or if what was observed was just people playing with a ball or something more similar to Shrovetide Football or other cultural games that are light on rules and played to celebrate an occasion, but that's neither here nor there really.

The other thing you'll see debated between historians and some academics in indigenous studies is whether or not Marn Grook inspired, or at least had some influence in the creation of, Aussie Rules. The hypothesis that Marn Grook inspired Tom Wills' creation of Aussie Rules hinges on circumstantial evidence that Tom Wills existed near where Marn Grook was played, that he could have seen it played, or even participated, and that Aussie Rules and Marn Grook have some vague similarities. However no hard evidence has ever been presented that proves that he actually observed it played, and as such most experts reject the hypothesis as conjecture.

TL;DR, Marn Grook definitely existed but there's no reason to believe that it had any influence on the creation of Aussie Rules.
 
W

Wb1234

Referee
Messages
25,930
The Great Dane said:
No historian I know of claims that Marn Grook, or other indigenous ball games, didn't exist. Any that do make that claim are probably crackpots because there's ample historical evidence that it existed.

You will see historians debate whether or not Marn Grook was a competitive sport with a universally accepted set of rules, or if what was observed was just people playing with a ball or something more similar to Shrovetide Football or other cultural games that are light on rules and played to celebrate an occasion, but that's neither here nor there really.

The other thing you'll see debated between historians and some academics in indigenous studies is whether or not Marn Grook inspired, or at least had some influence in the creation of, Aussie Rules. The hypothesis that Marn Grook inspired Tom Wills' creation of Aussie Rules hinges on circumstantial evidence that Tom Wills existed near where Marn Grook was played, that he could have seen it played, or even participated, and that Aussie Rules and Marn Grook have some vague similarities. However no hard evidence has ever been presented that proves that he actually observed it played, and as such most experts reject the hypothesis as conjecture.

TL;DR, Marn Grook definitely existed but there's no reason to believe that it had any influence on the creation of Aussie Rules.
Click to expand...
Willis got his ideas from rugby school

afl propagated the myth and it’s a lie
 
S

Steel Saints

Juniors
Messages
927
The Great Dane said:
No historian I know of claims that Marn Grook, or other indigenous ball games, didn't exist. Any that do make that claim are probably crackpots because there's ample historical evidence that it existed.

You will see historians debate whether or not Marn Grook was a competitive sport with a universally accepted set of rules, or if what was observed was just people playing with a ball or something more similar to Shrovetide Football or other cultural games that are light on rules and played to celebrate an occasion, but that's neither here nor there really.

The other thing you'll see debated between historians and some academics in indigenous studies is whether or not Marn Grook inspired, or at least had some influence in the creation of, Aussie Rules. The hypothesis that Marn Grook inspired Tom Wills' creation of Aussie Rules hinges on circumstantial evidence that Tom Wills existed near where Marn Grook was played, that he could have seen it played, or even participated, and that Aussie Rules and Marn Grook have some vague similarities. However no hard evidence has ever been presented that proves that he actually observed it played, and as such most experts reject the hypothesis as conjecture.

TL;DR, Marn Grook definitely existed but there's no reason to believe that it had any influence on the creation of Aussie Rules.
Click to expand...
I know there's been threads that have often been derailed. But talking about Marn Grook in "Future NRL Stadiums" thread is one of the best/ worst derailments of a thread on this site.
 
Canard

Canard

Immortal
Messages
35,057
Wb1234 said:
Willis got his ideas from rugby school

afl propagated the myth and it’s a lie
Click to expand...

Aussie Rules is a direct descendant of Gaelic Footbal, in my opinion.

I mean the general rules are very similar, with differences evolving over time being the use of a rugby football, more leeway in tackling, and a cricket oval.

There was certainly a lot of Irish in Melbourne and surrounds at the time, and it's been documented that they played games in Melbourne post their arrival here.
 
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The Great Dane

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,898
Wb1234 said:
Willis got his ideas from rugby school

afl propagated the myth and it’s a lie
Click to expand...
We don't know that.

Just as we can't prove that he observed Marn Grook, we can't prove that he didn't.

You don't hear about it anywhere near as much, but there was also a Shrovetide football game from part of England that Wills spent some time in (that I forget the name of off the top of my head), that was incredibly similar to Aussie Rules as well, and it's also been suggested that Wills could have observed it being played and that it could have influenced his creation of Aussie Rules as well.

There's about as much evidence for that hypothesis as there is for the Marn Grook one, but you don't hear about it because it's not as politically attractive.
 
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The Great Dane

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,898
Canard said:
Aussie Rules is a direct descendant of Gailec Football for mine.

I mean the general rules are exactly the same with the only change being a rugby football and tackling.
Click to expand...
There's even less evidence for that than Marn Grook having an influence.

Modern Gaelic football first started appearing in the 1870s, 11 years after Aussie Rules was codified, and wasn't codified until 1884, 25 years after Aussie Rules and 4 years after Wills died.

Caid (the Irish equivalent of Shrovetide games that predated Gaelic Football) weren't particularly similar to what became Gaelic football either. There's also less reason to believe that Wills encountered any of the Caid games than Marn Grook, with only a handful of accounts of any of them being played in Australia on gold fields in SA and Vic that we know for a fact that Wills wasn't present to witness, and they certainly weren't ever played regularly in England, let alone when he was there.

The original rules of Gaelic football being almost identical to the Melbourne rules (i.e. Aussie Rules) of the time has actually lead some to suggest that Irish immigrants that had returned from Australia influenced Gealic football's rules, not the other way around, but again the evidence is circumstantial at best. In other words there's about as much evidence for that hypothesis as there is that Marn Grook inspired Aussie Rules.

Edit:

Turns out that I should have updated my knowledge before talking about this subject.

Direct evidence has been found in the last 10 years that the GAA copied rules from Victorian Rules rulebooks of 1860-70s verbatim, and there's even paperwork from Limerick that states that they adopted some of the Victorian Rules.

Many of those rules have been removed from the rule book over time, and pretty much all of those that were left have evolved in completely different ways in Ireland than they did down here, but Aussie Rules did directly influence Gaelic Football and not the other way around.
 
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