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The Game Future NRL Stadiums part II

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,869
If they weren't building pantheons to their political prowess there could have been any number of scenarios that would have been more logical and palatable to the public and hanky head.

35k fully roofed to replace ANZ and a 70k at Moore Park with new public transport infrastructure
35k at Moore Park with a 75k rebuilt ANZ
refurbed and roofed SFS with a rebuilt ANZ

Its not hard to see why people are questioning the need for two brand new large sized stadiums in the one city.
 

beave

Coach
Messages
15,679
If a 45k SFS has issues with access/emergency egress due to the shit that’s been built around it and the location of the roads, f**k knows how a 65k-70k stadium is gonna roll in that same spot....
 
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El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...s/news-story/81e8b0404c198b940e674d3d87dd9ae6

Berejiklian’s push for new stadiums makes sense, even if it is seen by some as mere bread and circuses

Anna Caldwell, The Daily Telegraph
February 27, 2018 11:00pm

GREAT cities and great stadiums go hand-in-hand. From Rome’s Colosseum to London’s Wembley Arena to our own SCG, sporting arenas have always been bound up in the lives of a city’s people — and their government.

Today, the Berejiklian government has reason to worry it might go the way of Rome, even as she and her ministers plan to execute a multi-billion dollar vision razing and rebuilding two venues in a move critics see as nothing more than bread and circuses.

The future of Sydney’s two great stadiums, ANZ at Homebush and Allianz at Moore Park, has become the most politically divisive policy clash in the state.

At one end of the field, the naysayers. Those who say pouring money into the stadiums is a waste and doesn’t benefit the people.

And at the other, Premier Gladys Berejiklian, sports minister Stuart Ayres, and those who believe that investing in the mammoth sporting infrastructure is the right thing to do for the state’s future as a major economic and tourism driver.

The cost, to demolish and rebuild those two stadiums, is placed at over $2 billion.

Several ministers believe that if the government can’t win the public argument over stadiums, it cannot win the election.

They see this as a political contest straight out of Gladiator, with political death the only option for the loser.

Berejiklian faces a diabolical problem: Having committed to the plan, every single failure to pay for anything, anywhere over the next 12 months will be squarely blamed on stadiums, even if unfairly.

In a humiliating spray, upper house MP Matthew Mason-Cox fired the starter’s gun on exactly that yesterday, lambasting his own side for prioritising “a couple of sporting stadiums” over child welfare.

A passionate Mason-Cox was blaming the perennial woes of the child protection system on the stadiums investment, and in that instance gave every critic a playbook from which to attack the government in the race to the election.

This is a searing danger going forward. Too much traffic on the roads? Stadiums’ fault.

High electricity bills? Damn those stadiums.

People moving out of Sydney? Definitely the stadiums spend at it again.

The problem for the government is that Mason-Cox was speaking words that some other nervous ministers and backbenchers have whispered privately.

Ministers and backbenchers have told me that they have never before seen the electoral backlash the scale of which they observed on stadiums.

Punters would come up to them in the streets, through their inboxes and on the phone.

The government has the figures and the financial analysis from KPMG to back up its convictions to demolish and rebuild both the stories.

I have reported on leaked KMPG financial modelling for both ANZ and Allianz. In both cases, the KPMG work shows that demolishing and starting from scratch is a far more cost effective option than remodelling. The secret figures I saw last year from KPMG on ANZ, which are still being refined, showed that it was over $100 million cheaper to demolish and rebuild the Homebush venue than it was to renovate it.

The January 2018 KMPG analysis for Allianz, which I revealed yesterday, is even more damning of the renovation option at Moore Park.

It is in such a rundown state that even spending an initial $141 million to patch up safety issues would only extend the life of the stadium by about five years.

Imagine that. We’d be having the same conversation in 2021.

It’s not difficult politics to say to them that the government should be spending that money on something else. But the case for stadiums is more complex than an instant sugar hit in an electoral cycle.

So what’s the next option — a more thorough refurb? According to KPMG, not if you want a little thing called economic benefit. The KMPG analysis that I have seen gives weight to the government’s course of action.

But what will that matter if the government cannot win the war of ideas? And what will it matter if the government is eating itself alive with gruesome internal division over the spend?

Opposition leader Luke Foley has deftly made political capital out of his repeated claims that the government should not spend the money.

His motto — and it’s rattling around the state — is schools and hospitals before stadiums.

It’s an easy message to sell to a state full of people who might attend a stadium once a year. Many in the regions would be lucky to roll into the bright flood lights of ANZ once in a lifetime.

It’s not difficult politics to say to them that the government should be spending that money on something else. But the case for stadiums is more complex than an instant sugar hit in an electoral cycle.

It’s a big picture case for tourism, for future benefit and for driving the economy.

Berejiklian rightly sees it as having a vision for the state.

Just when cries against stadiums were reaching fever pitch in December, I interviewed Berejiklian while she was travelling in China.

She said, then, that she knew she would be pilloried over the spend.

Crucially, she told me she was willing to cop the criticism because being a leader meant making the right decisions for the state, saying she wasn’t willing to do nothing.

This was a city that builds things, she said, not a city that lets infrastructure rot.

This, if Berejiklian stays the course, is true conviction politics.

The government is in a strong financial position and believes it can spend on stadiums, and schools, and hospitals. If this is true, the government needs to do more to sell that message. And on a grassroots level, anyone who wants to be on Berejiklian’s team needs to get better at selling the stadiums story in their own electorates.

The Sydney Harbour Bridge and the Opera House were both marred in opposition and controversy through their construction.

Neither would have been built if the anti-growth voices had their way —- and it’s unlikely they would have stood up to stringent cost benefit scrutiny. No, they were built from the cauldron of conviction.
 

M2D2

Bench
Messages
4,693
"On Tuesday, the NSW Opposition Leader Luke Foley announced that if his mob are elected in a year’s time they will launch a Special Commission of Inquiry – with the powers of a Royal Commission – into how on earth the incumbent NSW Government came to the patently absurd decision to knock down and redo the Olympic and Sydney Football Stadiums at a cost of $2.5 Billion – giving a broad $1000 from every household in NSW, to the cause of helping elite money-making sporting businesses."
Thats right Foley, thats a great idea, Spend more f**king government money on something like that.
Thats not a waste in the slightest.
Mongs everywhere on both sides of this debate.

If a 45k SFS has issues with access/emergency egress due to the shit that’s been built around it and the location of the roads, f**k knows how a 65k-70k stadium is gonna roll in that same spot....
Moore park couldnt handle it. Ignore PR.
 

Raiderdave

First Grade
Messages
7,990
another parramatta at moore park
built for half the price & considerably quicker

ANZ as per the plan

350 million plus back to NSW tax payers
job done

dot it
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...n/news-story/88e7f41b8068b5d80c6706aabd82f21f

Cost of Sydney stadiums rebuild blows out to $2.7bn

  • The Australian
  • 12:00AM March 1, 2018
  • Andrew Clennelll
    5bcf05474f86ed11782a5560601a47f3
The cost of Sydney’s Allianz Stadium knockdown and rebuild has blown out by up to $200 million, putting the cost of the package at $2.7 billion.

The final business case for the knockdown and rebuild of the stadium is believed to be heading towards $900m, up from the $705m Sport Minister Stuart Ayres promised cabinet last November after the original KPMG examination of the project.

News of the details of the blowout comes as The Australian reveals the NRL devised an option to reduce costs: a 30,000-seat stadium to replace Allianz rather than the 45,000 capacity Mr Ayres is proposing.

Even after Premier Gladys Berejiklian announced her policy to knock down and rebuild Allianz Stadium and ANZ Stadium (at an additional cost of $1.25bn), the NRL in a December 14 meeting with Opposition Leader Luke Foley and opposition sport spokeswoman Lynda Voltz suggested the smaller stadium as a way to gain support from Labor for the project.

The costs come on top of more than $300m spent on the new Parramatta Stadium and $200m spent buying ANZ Stadium from the private sector.

In a December meeting with Mr Foley, NRL chief executive Todd Greenberg and government relations executive Jaymes Boland-Rudder, the NRL put forward the lower-cost option.

“I can confirm that the NRL raised the possibility of reducing the size of the Allianz Stadium rebuild from 45,000 to 30,000 in a meeting with the Opposition Leader and myself, to reduce the cost,” Ms Voltz told The Australian yesterday.

Mr Foley has said that he will not rebuild Allianz and has suggested he will consider a refurbishment of ANZ Stadium but nothing more.

He has used the issue to political advantage ahead of next year’s election, with a slogan “Schools and Hospitals before stadiums”.

In September, Fox Sports and the Nine Network were reported to have lobbied the state government for Allianz to become a 30,000-seat stadium .

The TV networks were tackling the rugby league issue of television pictures showing empty crowds, as often occur during home-and-away matches at ANZ.

The Premier’s own diary records show she met Fox Sports and Nine on October 24 “to discuss NSW stadiums strategy”.

The Australian revealed yesterday that the original $705m plan of Mr Ayres for the knockdown and rebuild of Allianz Stadium included playing field dimensions not big enough for an international rugby union match.

The gaffe is just one of the reasons the proposed cost of the new Allianz is about to blow out once the final business case done by Infrastructure NSW is presented to government.

The Ayres-KPMG plan for the stadium includes a claim that a new stadium at Moore Park would deliver an extra 20 events on average each year, from 34-37 events up to 59, even though that content has not been locked in with the NRL, which favours the ANZ redevelopment as a priority.

The Australian also understands that the KPMG document includes a claim that the benefit-cost ratio of the project is 1.1, up from 0.6 — the figure presented to cabinet last November.

Without a BCR of greater than one, under government rules, money from the sale of the $2.6bnon Land and Property Information Service cannot be used for the stadiums.

An increase in the cost of Allianz could lead to Mr Ayres recommending the government approve Allianz and dump or substantially delay the reconstruction of ANZ Stadium.

But the NRL has threatened to take the grand final out of Sydney some years if the ANZ plan is dumped.

Mr Foley announced on Tuesday that he would order a commission of inquiry into the stadiums saga if he were elected at next year’s election.

When Ms Berejiklian and Mr Ayres made their announcement in November, they also foreshadowed a 15,000-seat indoor sports arena for central Sydney, potentially driving the government’s stadiums bill up even further.
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...e/news-story/1d7556a4ad8e2e8756e8f210800e9697

Double in trouble when it comes to rugby league

The Sydney Roosters had only one crowd in excess of 30,000 at Allianz Stadium last year despite hosting two home NRL finals at the ground.

At least they fared better than the NSW Waratahs, who couldn’t break the 30,000 barrier as they struggled through a disappointing year.

The Wallabies did their bit for rugby union as they managed to draw 30,721 to the venue for their mid-year loss to Scotland. Even Sydney FC, for all their recent success, failed to draw big numbers. The one exception was their derby against Western Sydney which attracted 34,210 last October while the A-League final drew 41,546.

The Roosters’ biggest NRL crowd was for their Anzac Day game against St George Illawarra, which drew 40,864. Finals games against Brisbane and North Queensland attracted crowds of 21,212 and 28,908, the totals mitigated to an extent by their opponents being interstate teams.

The Roosters remain committed to the ground and have welcomed plans to rebuild Allianz Stadium. Yet the NRL and several clubs were mystified this week to read a report that suggested rugby league content at the ground would double once the rebuild was completed.

It is understood the NRL contacted clubs to find out whether any had committed to moving to Allianz Stadium once the ground had its facelift.

It is believed other than the Roosters, none indicated an intention to do so. Canterbury and South Sydney are committed to ANZ Stadium, which is due to undergo a rebuild itself at the end of 2019.

St George Illawarra may look to take games to Allianz Stadium but remain committed to their suburban homes of Jubilee and WIN Stadiums. Cronulla and Manly have suburban homes too and will base themselves at those venues for the foreseeable future.

Wests Tigers are yet to determine their future but have a contract with ANZ Stadium for several seasons ahead.

They have discussed the possibility of playing games at Parramatta Stadium when ANZ Stadium is being rebuilt but are committed to Leichhardt Oval and Campbelltown Stadium.

That leaves precious few games up for grabs and raises questions over the KPMG report that suggests rugby league content could double when Allianz Stadium is completed.
 
Messages
15,493
Unfortunately I can see why the tenants would want the SFS's replacement to be able to hold more than 30k people - the SCG Trust Members. Don't forget, the SFS has an entire area set aside solely for use by Trust members, as such the Roosters and the Waratahs are only able to sell something like 28k of the seats for each match as the rest are reserved for the Trust Members.

Hence you have a 30k stadium, you'd probably only wind up with them being able to sell around 50% of those seats.
 
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morley101

Juniors
Messages
1,025
By this time next year Parramatta Stadium will be open and the SFS will be demolished and the election
would still with a few weeks still away. The contracts would been already signed off....
 
Messages
15,493
By this time next year Parramatta Stadium will be open and the SFS will be demolished and the election
would still with a few weeks still away. The contracts would been already signed off....

Contracts might be signed off, but any incoming Government could attempt to legislate to cancel the contracts after the event.
 

insert.pause

First Grade
Messages
6,461
Sounds like Ayres has done the dirty again and claimed additional NRL content commitment to SFS to inflate it's business case. He was originally punted by Baird because he would tell clubs one thing, and tell government another. The 'Minister for the SCG Trust' is the only reason the process has been such a giant clusterf**k. If ANZ actually ever gets rebuilt I will be stunned. As for Gladys, what a gutless & pathetic excuse for a premier.
 
Messages
15,493
Sounds like Ayres has done the dirty again and claimed additional NRL content commitment to SFS to inflate it's business case. He was originally punted by Baird because he would tell clubs one thing, and tell government another. The 'Minister for the SCG Trust' is the only reason the process has been such a giant clusterf**k. If ANZ actually ever gets rebuilt I will be stunned. As for Gladys, what a gutless & pathetic excuse for a premier.

Ayres was best mates with Barry O'Farrell when he was Leader of the Liberals, and is tight with Alan Jones. Guess who happen to be SCG Trustees...... ;)
 

insert.pause

First Grade
Messages
6,461
Ayres was best mates with Barry O'Farrell when he was Leader of the Liberals, and is tight with Alan Jones. Guess who happen to be SCG Trustees...... ;)
yep, and Shepherd, who as Giants chairman coincidentally doesn't want ANZ made rectangular. They are planning SFS to go way over budget & leave ANZ with nothing but a lick of paint. As soon as Ayres finally got his way, & SFS was made the priority, ANZ was screwed. I bet the NRL know it too and that's why they are still lobbying for the SFS capacity to be reduced to 30k.
 
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21,880
Unfortunately I can see why the tenants would want the SFS's replacement to be able to hold more than 30k people - the SCG Trust Members. Don't forget, the SFS has an entire area set aside solely for use by Trust members, as such the Roosters and the Waratahs are only able to seel something like 28k of the seats for each match as the rest are reserved for the Trust Members.

Hence you have a 30k stadium, you'd probably only wind up with them being able to sell around 50% of those seats.

I’ve looked at these numbers and there’s an easy workaround.

30,000 may not cut it but 35k would.

There’s only about 8k members, and they very rarely all turn up.

Membership as well doesn’t guarantee a seat, only entry. So you could have a standing overflow area.

You could also amend the by-laws to require people to book a seat like they do at ANZ.
 
Messages
21,880
Contracts might be signed off, but any incoming Government could attempt to legislate to cancel the contracts after the event.

That’d burn relationships. There’s not many big civil contractors in Australia.

Look what happened in Victoria, they choose to pay out $1 billion instead of building a road.
 
Messages
15,493
I’ve looked at these numbers and there’s an easy workaround.

30,000 may not cut it but 35k would.

There’s only about 8k members, and they very rarely all turn up.

Membership as well doesn’t guarantee a seat, only entry. So you could have a standing overflow area.

You could also amend the by-laws to require people to book a seat like they do at ANZ.

This is the SCG Trust we are talking about. It is highly unlikely they would do anything like that. They put their interests ahead of everybody else's. They most certainly would not have a "standing area" up in the members reserve as their members would expect to be seated. Quite a few of the members have a very big idea of what their sense of entitlements are, and are not backward in coming forward to demand it.
 
Messages
21,880
This is the SCG Trust we are talking about. It is highly unlikely they would do anything like that. They put their interests ahead of everybody else's. They most certainly would not have a "standing area" up in the members reserve as their members would expect to be seated. Quite a few of the members have a very big idea of what their sense of entitlements are, and are not backward in coming forward to demand it.

It’s not all up to the trust.

If they want the money they’ll have to accept some of the conditions the govt places on it.

In regards to a standing area, you’d be surprised. The standing bars at the cricket are really popular, always have been in the members. It’s networking central.
 
Messages
15,493
It’s not all up to the trust.

If they want the money they’ll have to accept some of the conditions the govt places on it.

In regards to a standing area, you’d be surprised. The standing bars at the cricket are really popular, always have been in the members. It’s networking central.

Standing at a bar having a drink for10-20minutes is one thing. Standing for the whole game? That is something else.

As to accepting conditions, you mean like accepting the plan for ANZ to be rebuilt and then the SFS to only get a refurbishment as announced by the NSW Government about 18 months ago?

I'm not having a go at you HH, just I've seen how the Trust operates over a very long time and how various plans to do things were kyboshed solely because they clashed with the Trusts interests.
 

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