The Game Future NRL Stadiums part II

[morley101]

I get that there is a long-term vision for the Giants, but to be frank so were the swans and after 30 years in Sydney, they can still only pull 30 - 35k average crowds (for what was a long time the only AFL team in the city) and appauling TV ratings. It is great that they are after the kids but it is likely that the kids of Western Sydney will still choose to follow the dogs, eels, tigers, panthers and NSW SOO team.

GWS can't even commit to Sydney full-time so I can understand why they think that fans will commit to them.

GWS V GC watched by 32,000...on Fox.... and claim to get over 7000 to the game. It looked more like
4000-5000.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

GWS V GC watched by 32,000...on Fox.... and claim to get over 7000 to the game. It looked more like
4000-5000.

Yes - exactly this. They can plan to take the kids all they want but if the kids are more interested in following their heros in one of the four (five if you include Souths) RL teams in the area then it doesn't mean anything.

 

[TheRam]

I get that there is a long-term vision for the Giants, but to be frank so were the swans and after 30 years in Sydney, they can still only pull 30 - 35k average crowds (for what was a long time the only AFL team in the city) and appauling TV ratings. It is great that they are after the kids but it is likely that the kids of Western Sydney will still choose to follow the dogs, eels, tigers, panthers and NSW SOO team.

GWS can't even commit to Sydney full-time so I can understand why they think that fans will commit to them.

And what is the average crowd of the Storm after all these successful years at the very top of the NRL ladder? And what is their average Melbourne TV ratings compared to the Swans Sydney ratings? And how many players have the Storm brought through to 1st grade(non Islander or Maori) from Victoria compared to the Swans from NSW?

These are all important markers and I think the Swans are winning at least 2 out of the 3 by quite a margin. Also I would guess that there are more kids playing AFL in NSW than kids playing League in Victoria. Anyone know?

 

[Captain Apollo]

And what is the average crowd of the Storm after all these successful years at the very top of the NRL ladder? And what is their average Melbourne TV ratings compared to the Swans Sydney ratings? And how many players have the Storm brought through to 1st grade(non Islander or Maori) from Victoria compared to the Swans from NSW?

These are all important markers and I think the Swans are winning at least 2 out of the 3 by quite a margin. Also I would guess that there are more kids playing AFL in NSW than kids playing League in Victoria. Anyone know?

Melbourne Storm's average home game attendances over the last decade -

2019 (to date): 20,543.
2018: 17,293.
2017: 18,375.
2016: 18,079.
2015: 13,453.
2014: 14,894.
2013: 16,302.
2012: 12,685.
2011: 14,264.
2010: 14,670.
2009: 11,978.

Source: https://afltables.com/rl/crowds/melbourne.html

The source page has the Storm's attendances all the way back to an including 1998 in case you are interested. Hope that is of some help to you.

 

[T-Boon]

I get that there is a long-term vision for the Giants, but to be frank so were the swans and after 30 years in Sydney, they can still only pull 30 - 35k average crowds (for what was a long time the only AFL team in the city) and appauling TV ratings.

I agree. The biggest problem for the GWS plan is I think it relies on the NRL and the NRL clubs remaining dumb/complacent/apathetic for the forceable future but there are probably going to be things that jolt the NRL clubs into smartening up. A massive increase in poker tax for example.

 

[Suitman]

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I agree. The biggest problem for the GWS plan is I think it relies on the NRL and the NRL clubs remaining dumb/complacent/apathetic for the forceable future but there are probably going to be things that jolt the NRL clubs into smartening up. A massive increase in poker tax for example.

Very good point

 

[T-Boon]

Very good point

Thanks, I like to try to make one every couple thousand posts.

 

[T-Boon]

Scene from episode 5 of Chernobyl.

 

[herbert henry1908]

I don’t think they’re going anywhere to be honest.

I used to work for an agency that got American college students internships in Sydney. One of our partners for our sports management students was GWS.

We regularly had groups of academics who came out to tour the facilities and check out our partners. In the past I had taken them to some of our other partners who were NRL clubs (the Bulldogs, or occasionally the Eels) and they had always been good, had a little chat to us and shown them around Belmore or Parra. They were both unavailable on this day, so I arranged to take them to the GWS head office at Olympic Park.

Whereas the Dogs and Eels had usually gotten a member of the marketing team, or a middle manager to come and chat about the organisation for fifteen minutes before a quick tour, the Giants sat us down in the board room and one of the senior execs came in and talked about the club, its vision and how the students fit into this vision. He was American (he had worked for the Red Sox in a senior role previously) and his deputy, who had been an operations manager for the University of Texas Football program also talked at length.

So I'm the only Aussie in the room, and half way through the presentation he gets a question from one of the academics: 'I've done my research, and I see your crowds are tiny compared to the rest of the league - can you explain that?' he stops, turns to me and goes 'hey Tim, real quick, you're the only Aussie here - you'd be a Swans man right?'. I say, well look, I grew up in Sydney and I'm actually an NRL guy. And he responds 'that's the exact response I expected, and if I can be blunt Tim, I'm not interested in you - I'm after your kids. Because if in twenty years you've got an eight year old who really, really wants to go to the footy and it's our footy and not the NRL, then we've won'.

He then explained how they are prepared to take a bath for the next two decades because they know that Western Sydney isn't going to start following AFL overnight and that it's very much a marathon, not a sprint for them. They then took us on a full tour of the facilities, Leon Cameron (their head coach) stopped and talked to us for fifteen minutes about the vision of the organisation and then - the cherry on top - they let us raid the merch store. He literally said 'take whatever you want and I'll write it off'. These academics walked out of there with about five grand worth of merch (one took jerseys for each of her five kids and sixteen grand-kids!).

People mock the Giants, but in my dealings with them, they are absolutely playing 4D chess and I have no doubt they will be wildly successful in the long run.

Anyway, I know to a lot of people on here they’ll read what I just said and say ‘haha, AFL sucks though LOL’ but the fact is they are willing to invest a hell of a lot more time and effort in their code in a deeply hostile market than we are in ours.

Interesting post. But I find it hard to believe the AFL wouldn’t be concerned with the lack of growth in the last few years when GWS have been successful on the field.

As a point of comparison, the swans averaged over 25,000 people in their 5th season. Which was a successful one on the field.

Now the Swans were the only team in town then, but Sydney also had 2 million less people.

And that’s just looking at the crowds, the TV ratings are appalling. Just this past weekend the GWS v Gold Coast game was the lowest rating AFL game in fox sports history. As someone else mentioned the swans have never been able to crack the TV market, they’ve been here almost 40 years now.



With that said I think the team more likely to fold is the Gold Coast Suns.

 

[TheRam]

Melbourne Storm's average home game attendances over the last decade -

2019 (to date): 20,543.
2018: 17,293.
2017: 18,375.
2016: 18,079.
2015: 13,453.
2014: 14,894.
2013: 16,302.
2012: 12,685.
2011: 14,264.
2010: 14,670.
2009: 11,978.

Source: https://afltables.com/rl/crowds/melbourne.html

The source page has the Storm's attendances all the way back to an including 1998 in case you are interested. Hope that is of some help to you.

So about 90% of the time, about half of what the Swans are.

What about juniors?
How many have the Swans produced from kids in NSW compared to the Storm in Victoria?
Anyone?

 

[Suitman]

So about 90% of the time, about half of what the Swans are.

What about juniors?
How many have the Swans produced from kids in NSW compared to the Storm in Victoria?
Anyone?

Can you talk about stadiums instead?

 

[titoelcolombiano]

And what is the average crowd of the Storm after all these successful years at the very top of the NRL ladder? And what is their average Melbourne TV ratings compared to the Swans Sydney ratings? And how many players have the Storm brought through to 1st grade(non Islander or Maori) from Victoria compared to the Swans from NSW?

These are all important markers and I think the Swans are winning at least 2 out of the 3 by quite a margin. Also I would guess that there are more kids playing AFL in NSW than kids playing League in Victoria. Anyone know?

No doubt the swans are ahead of the storm but let's check the relative price tags spent by the AFL and NRL on each and we will find that what the Storm / NRL have achieved is much cheaper. All that really teaches us though is the NRL need to get investing in the game more in non-heartland areas. But what it also shows is despite the hundreds of millions spent by the AFL, is that there is not a lot of interest in AFL in Sydney.

Also, I don't see why we need to discount Victorians of islander decent when talking Victorian juniors. They are still Victorian and they are attracted to and play our game.

 

[greenBV4]

Why would you compare Storm crowds to swans crowds when the swans average better than Sydney NRL clubs? Compare the crowds to other NRL teams and you'll find they they are usually somewhere in the top 5

They also rate better on tv than any other victorian sports club besides collingwood, and claim to have the second highest social media following of all AFL and NRL clubs

Juniors would be the only "let down" but Id say thats atleast just as much on the NRL as it is the Storm, AFL are just better at promoting the game out of heartland areas

 

[TheRam]

Interesting post. But I find it hard to believe the AFL wouldn’t be concerned with the lack of growth in the last few years when GWS have been successful on the field.

As a point of comparison, the swans averaged over 25,000 people in their 5th season. Which was a successful one on the field.

Now the Swans were the only team in town then, but Sydney also had 2 million less people.

And that’s just looking at the crowds, the TV ratings are appalling. Just this past weekend the GWS v Gold Coast game was the lowest rating AFL game in fox sports history. As someone else mentioned the swans have never been able to crack the TV market, they’ve been here almost 40 years now.



With that said I think the team more likely to fold is the Gold Coast Suns.

Boy do I hope you're right on all these points and that both the Suns and Midgets blink out into oblivion, But I fear that the AFL will just persist and hope something really bad happens to the NRL( remember Super League) and give them that catapult that they got for the Swans back then. Sounds unlikely? Sure, but with the likes of people that are and have almost always run the NRL, not so far fetched.

Even without a Super League sized disaster, they will just hang in there till the next couple of generations are born who will see the AFL and the Midgets only as another nonthreatening sports team option. Slowly people may sympathise with them like they did the Swans for being perennial losers and then become many peoples second favourite team. Then down the track becoming their favourite when they get onto a winning purple patch or two.

The point is the public is very fickle and can for many and any reason just change and support them when the circumstances are right. The AFL know this and are just making sure that their sport is in the best possible position and has the right wholesome, cool/smart/safe public perception to capitalise on if/when the almost guaranteed stuff ups happen that the NRL deliver them, big or small.

 

[TheRam]

No doubt the swans are ahead of the storm but let's check the relative price tags spent by the AFL and NRL on each and we will find that what the Storm / NRL have achieved is much cheaper. All that really teaches us though is the NRL need to get investing in the game more in non-heartland areas. But what it also shows is despite the hundreds of millions spent by the AFL, is that there is not a lot of interest in AFL in Sydney.

Also, I don't see why we need to discount Victorians of islander decent when talking Victorian juniors. They are still Victorian and they are attracted to and play our game.

It is like saying that McDonalds is only bigger then all the rest because they spent millions more on marketing then all their rivals.They actually spent $1m a day in the US at one point in their early days which was unheard of for a burger joint and seemed unsustainable. Who cares how much they spend if the money is there and still coming in. They are investing in their long term future.

As for why not to include Islanders or Maoris? Because no one has converted them ffs, they are League and Union rust ons. Of course you would expect them to be playing our sport. But even that group I feel is under represented from a Storm junior side of things. I mean how many Benji Marshall, Junior Paulo, Payne Hass or Jesse Bromwich type of players have they produced from within their State?

The Storm to me have been very successful because they got very lucky by having a very good coach who recruited very well from the QLD junior pool, when the Broncos blinked from a talent spotting perspective. If and when that dries up, just like it did for the Raiders, now that the Broncos have their sh*t together again, where will they go from there? England? NZ? South Pacific Islands? Good luck finding a Cronk or C. Smith style player there. The Warriors are still looking.

 

[Perth Red]

I don’t think they’re going anywhere to be honest.

I used to work for an agency that got American college students internships in Sydney. One of our partners for our sports management students was GWS.

We regularly had groups of academics who came out to tour the facilities and check out our partners. In the past I had taken them to some of our other partners who were NRL clubs (the Bulldogs, or occasionally the Eels) and they had always been good, had a little chat to us and shown them around Belmore or Parra. They were both unavailable on this day, so I arranged to take them to the GWS head office at Olympic Park.

Whereas the Dogs and Eels had usually gotten a member of the marketing team, or a middle manager to come and chat about the organisation for fifteen minutes before a quick tour, the Giants sat us down in the board room and one of the senior execs came in and talked about the club, its vision and how the students fit into this vision. He was American (he had worked for the Red Sox in a senior role previously) and his deputy, who had been an operations manager for the University of Texas Football program also talked at length.

So I'm the only Aussie in the room, and half way through the presentation he gets a question from one of the academics: 'I've done my research, and I see your crowds are tiny compared to the rest of the league - can you explain that?' he stops, turns to me and goes 'hey Tim, real quick, you're the only Aussie here - you'd be a Swans man right?'. I say, well look, I grew up in Sydney and I'm actually an NRL guy. And he responds 'that's the exact response I expected, and if I can be blunt Tim, I'm not interested in you - I'm after your kids. Because if in twenty years you've got an eight year old who really, really wants to go to the footy and it's our footy and not the NRL, then we've won'.

He then explained how they are prepared to take a bath for the next two decades because they know that Western Sydney isn't going to start following AFL overnight and that it's very much a marathon, not a sprint for them. They then took us on a full tour of the facilities, Leon Cameron (their head coach) stopped and talked to us for fifteen minutes about the vision of the organisation and then - the cherry on top - they let us raid the merch store. He literally said 'take whatever you want and I'll write it off'. These academics walked out of there with about five grand worth of merch (one took jerseys for each of her five kids and sixteen grand-kids!).

People mock the Giants, but in my dealings with them, they are absolutely playing 4D chess and I have no doubt they will be wildly successful in the long run.

Anyway, I know to a lot of people on here they’ll read what I just said and say ‘haha, AFL sucks though LOL’ but the fact is they are willing to invest a hell of a lot more time and effort in their code in a deeply hostile market than we are in ours.

Most fans in here would have no idea what this means, look at the annual losses of Suns and GWS and claim a unmitigated disaster lol. Cant help but notice the Giants in your face at Sydney airport, no presence for NRL anywhere as you get to the city that is supposed to be the NRL heart.
The AFL have a very long game at play, NRL hasn't even got a short game. But don't worry as we will get yet another report at the end of the year for the commission to ignore.

 

[TheRam]

Why would you compare Storm crowds to swans crowds when the swans average better than Sydney NRL clubs? Compare the crowds to other NRL teams and you'll find they they are usually somewhere in the top 5

They also rate better on tv than any other victorian sports club besides collingwood, and claim to have the second highest social media following of all AFL and NRL clubs

Juniors would be the only "let down" but Id say thats atleast just as much on the NRL as it is the Storm, AFL are just better at promoting the game out of heartland areas

Because they are/were both one team city teams. You know apples with apples mate. What's the point comparing nine splintered affiliated teams? Makes no practical or logical sense.

As for social media, that's good, but does it or has it translated to extra fans in the stands, TV or juniors? I would suggest not by much.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

And what is the average crowd of the Storm after all these successful years at the very top of the NRL ladder? And what is their average Melbourne TV ratings compared to the Swans Sydney ratings? And how many players have the Storm brought through to 1st grade(non Islander or Maori) from Victoria compared to the Swans from NSW?

These are all important markers and I think the Swans are winning at least 2 out of the 3 by quite a margin. Also I would guess that there are more kids playing AFL in NSW than kids playing League in Victoria. Anyone know?

No doubt the swans are ahead of the storm but let's check the relative price tags spent by the AFL and NRL on each and we will find that what the Storm / NRL have achieved is much cheaper. All that really teaches us though is the NRL need to get investing in the game more in non-heartland areas. But what it also shows is despite the hundreds of millions spent by the AFL, is that there is not a lot of interest in AFL in Sydney.

Also, I don't see why we need to discount Victorians of islander decent when talking Victorian juniors. They are still Victorian and they are attracted to and play our game.

So about 90% of the time, about half of what the Swans are.

What about juniors?
How many have the Swans produced from kids in NSW compared to the Storm in Victoria?
Anyone?

They've also been in Melbourne half as long as the Swans have been in Sydney with a fraction of the money being pumped in.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

It is like saying that McDonalds is only bigger then all the rest because they spent millions more on marketing then all their rivals.They actually spent $1m a day in the US at one point in their early days which was unheard of for a burger joint and seemed unsustainable. Who cares how much they spend if the money is there and still coming in. They are investing in their long term future.

As for why not to include Islanders or Maoris? Because no one has converted them ffs, they are League and Union rust ons. Of course you would expect them to be playing our sport. But even that group I feel is under represented from a Storm junior side of things. I mean how many Benji Marshall, Junior Paulo, Payne Hass or Jesse Bromwich type of players have they produced from within their State?

The Storm to me have been very successful because they got very lucky by having a very good coach who recruited very well from the QLD junior pool, when the Broncos blinked from a talent spotting perspective. If and when that dries up, just like it did for the Raiders, now that the Broncos have their sh*t together again, where will they go from there? England? NZ? South Pacific Islands? Good luck finding a Cronk or C. Smith style player there. The Warriors are still looking.

The difference with the McDonald's analogy is that the market is responding as customers. The Swans are not growing their average attendances anywhere near in line with the money spent; 25k in 1996 and 34k last year (the arse is falling out of their average this year as they are awful on the field). That is appauling growth compared to the investment made, just like their TV ratings.

No one has converted islanders or maoris? Well, without the storm they wouldn't be attending RL matches every second week and would have many less options in terms of local RL teams to play for. So, yes they are additional players and supporters that the game wouldn't have without the Storm and they are Victorian. Agree on development of more local talent, it could be better.

The Storm are a well run club and they will be fine. They are still at the top even without Slater and Cronk.