The Game Future NRL Stadiums part II

[The Great Dane]

Ultimately I do agree for long term survival but as a long term ticketed Manly fan I would like to see Brookie upgraded even if it was only suitable for short term till some harder decisions need to be made

Pulling the band-aid off slowly is only going to make it hurt more, rip it off and get it over and done with.

Of course Manly actually needs a stadium in Northern Sydney that is suitable before they can rip that band-aid off.

 

[horrie hastings]

Is north sydney oval the closest ground to the city? I think its about 5 minutes from Wynyard to NSO.

From Wynyard to North Sydney Station by train not much more than 5 minutes but then from North Sydney Station to North Sydney Oval you have at least a 20 min walk up hill ( or you could get a bus from North Sydney station )

 

[Shire_seaeagle]

The fact of the matter is that any potential supporters in North Sydney that would be inclined to support Manly as they are would do so already whether or not the Bears juniors are under the Sea Eagles control, and obviously there aren't enough of them willing to do that otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

That means that if you are going to attract them then you need to make some changes to make yourselves appealing to them, and two obvious changes that could make a big difference is a home ground in a more central location and a re-branding so the club actually makes an effort to represent the people that they would be claiming to represent.

Let's put it this way; if roles were reversed and the Bears were trying to attract people from the Northern Beaches to jump on board, would you make a commitment to them if they had made no concerted effort to make a commitment to you? Of course you wouldn't, but here you are expecting different of them.

The only people who would get hung up on the team being called the Sea Eagles are people that are already fans of other clubs (including Bears fans), people you're almost certainly never going to get to change allegiances.

However I'd bet that there're plenty of people in greater Northern Sydney that have no interest in supporting a "Manly Warringah club" whom could be converted under the right circumstances.

The point non-Manly fans are missing is that Manly got banned by the Gallop administration from developing in the greater northern Sydney region eg busing schools, shopping centres in mid 2000’s when their was a push for central coast bears. Manly have never even had a chance at extending their fan base.

Agree it’s pointless chasing old bear fans but Manly have been quite successful last 10-15 years. Are you telling me if they were visiting schools like they were hoping to do as premiers their wouldn’t be any kids jumping on board??

 

[blue bags]

just fix brookvale FFSAKE how long does it , fair dinkim

 

[reanimate]

The fact of the matter is that any potential supporters in North Sydney that would be inclined to support Manly as they are would do so already whether or not the Bears juniors are under the Sea Eagles control, and obviously there aren't enough of them willing to do that otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Having proper engagement from an NRL club goes a long way to getting people interested. It makes a big difference if a kid can come home from school boasting to their parents that they got to meet Tommy Turbo who plays for the Blues and got a footy signed by him. Those moments make their mark on kids. As it is, kids on the North Shore don't get much of that. Manly doesn't do events at carnivals, junior footy games etc as Norths don't want them to.

You allow that to happen and the pendulum begins to swing.

That means that if you are going to attract them then you need to make some changes to make yourselves appealing to them, and two obvious changes that could make a big difference is a home ground in a more central location and a re-branding so the club actually makes an effort to represent the people that they would be claiming to represent.

The home ground is a big issue, but it's a very tough one. There aren't many locations where a stadium is viable on the North Shore or the Northern Beaches. You have North Sydney Oval, which isn't going to be redeveloped into a proper rectangular stadium due to its heritage status, Brookvale Oval and a handful of potential other sites which all have something wrong with them. Chatswood probably doesn't have enough land available to build a decent sized stadium, Rat Park is too far away for most people and so on. Brookvale isn't great, but when you're travelling from the Upper North Shore, the difference in travel time between Brookvale Oval and home and NSO and home is usually a few minutes tops. The big difference is for those on the Lower North Shore, where NSO is minutes away, but then if you live somewhere like Willoughby or Mosman, Brookvale really isn't very far away either. It's not ideal, but there isn't much choice.

A big rebranding isn't necessary. I didn't see a grand rebranding of St George when they took over Illawarra, they added Illawarra to their name and occasionally throw a Steelers tribute jersey on and that's it. And that was a merger. This wouldn't be a merger, it would be Manly handling development of the North Shore. The only rebranding necessary would be adding North Sydney/North Shore to the team's name and logo in some form, otherwise the name and colours would stay the same. You could do a few other minor tweaks, like change the circle logo to a shield design, ala our 60 year logo, to indicate a new direction, but a major rebranding isn't necessary.

Let's put it this way; if roles were reversed and the Bears were trying to attract people from the Northern Beaches to jump on board, would you make a commitment to them if they had made no concerted effort to make a commitment to you? Of course you wouldn't, but here you are expecting different of them.

I'd probably always be upset over losing the Sea Eagles, but if the Bears were the ones who made it out of the merger, 20 years had passed and it was now quite clear Manly was never coming back to first grade based out of the Northern Beaches, I'd definitely see the writing on the wall. If Norths adopted our territory and our junior districts and added Manly to their name, I'd accept the inevitable. If my kids came home from school or a footy carnival and were stoked that they got to meet Bears players and said they wanted to go see them play etc, I'd take them. There would be others who wouldn't, I assume, but once enough time had passed, it would just be a natural thing that they control the Northern Beaches.

As I said though, the Bears making such a move wouldn't be about people like me. If they managed to make a supporter out of me, they'd be very happy, but their moves in the region would be about getting local kids on board, engaged with the team and becoming longterm fans, who would pass that support onto their kids and so on.

 

[blue bags]

all good there /?? brookvale oval is where its at , the whole north shore , wake up please

 

[juro]

Totally agree only compromise/concession Manly need to make is to include a highonated name that includes the north shore area, get the NRL to let Manly access and promote in the north shore and that area will be sorted.

Look at the passionate hatred from the bears 20 years after there team folded it probably take another twenty till thiere old staunch supporters went away and the new generations turned to Manly. People ( PR ) now want to do the same with the neighbouring Northern beaches and start a new 50year old generation of hate from Manly supporters by folding them??

Me and my family of 4 are season ticket holders, both my kids play footy, i coach one team and run the water for the other. If Manly get punted nrl will get punted by myself and fellow friends/ supporters and ill go straight to soccer. ( id lie if I said AFL).

I would love to see how this new " fantastic Northern franchise " will get volunteers to coach, train all the juniors in the combined northern area. Luckily for them there wouldn't be any kids to train as they will be playing union or soccer.

Rugby league is not just the NRL clubs, it goes all the way down to the 6's through various aligned junior clubs that lead to the nrl club but don't let that stop people from placing dots in areas that look like a great business decision.

So you are an extremely passionate and involved member of your rugby league community, yet you would not be willing to follow what is effectively a rebranding of your team which is designed to make it stronger. Okay...

 

[taipan]

North Shore Sea Eagles.

North Sydney and Manly Warringah are on Sydney's North Shore.The name is all encompassing and has a sort of "snob" value to it.
The benefit of having the title North in the name, brings in the North Sydney aspect.They get a slice of the geographical action.
Manly is still the Sea Eagles.
It is not a joint venture, nor a relocation, games played at Broookvale, but games against the likes of the Titans or Newcastle play at NSO.The nostalgia factor would bring a healthy crowd.
I dislike joint ventures and relocations period.
This means the Sea Eagles become a truly representative team for an area of 1.3m ?? Meaning fans of other teams can hate a lot more people.And this large number of Eagle's fans can say we don't give a rats rectum.
You probably won't grab the old traditional Bear's generation, but the younger ones are there for the fan pickings.
That an area with a population the size of North Sydney is neglected and left for the fumblers etc,is criminal.

 

[T-Boon]

North Shore Sea Eagles.
It is not a joint venture, nor a relocation, games played at Broookvale, but games against the likes of the Titans or Newcastle play at NSO.The nostalgia factor would bring a healthy crowd.
I dislike joint ventures and relocations period.

I'd play all the Sydney teams at NSO. Play the other teams at Brookvale.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

From Hornsby to North Sydney to Manly-Warringah and Northern Beaches should be all Manly’s to develop from juniors up. Ffs Norffs are never coming back.

I’d love to see the NRL develop a plan to assist Manly incorporate all this territory and get it working ASAP.

Then push for a central WSS type stadium linked by light rail to NS, Manly and Chatswood. Long term ideas I understand but make it so.

And I f**king hate Manly. But seriously what a piss poor business model club and NRL are running at the moment.

 

[The Great Dane]

The point non-Manly fans are missing is that Manly got banned by the Gallop administration from developing in the greater northern Sydney region eg busing schools, shopping centres in mid 2000’s when their was a push for central coast bears. Manly have never even had a chance at extending their fan base.

Agree it’s pointless chasing old bear fans but Manly have been quite successful last 10-15 years. Are you telling me if they were visiting schools like they were hoping to do as premiers their wouldn’t be any kids jumping on board??

Having proper engagement from an NRL club goes a long way to getting people interested. It makes a big difference if a kid can come home from school boasting to their parents that they got to meet Tommy Turbo who plays for the Blues and got a footy signed by him. Those moments make their mark on kids. As it is, kids on the North Shore don't get much of that. Manly doesn't do events at carnivals, junior footy games etc as Norths don't want them to.

You allow that to happen and the pendulum begins to swing.

At this point who f**king cares about what Gallop did in the mid 00s.

For years now there's been nothing stopping Manly from spreading their wings except themselves.

A big rebranding isn't necessary. I didn't see a grand rebranding of St George when they took over Illawarra, they added Illawarra to their name and occasionally throw a Steelers tribute jersey on and that's it. And that was a merger. This wouldn't be a merger, it would be Manly handling development of the North Shore. The only rebranding necessary would be adding North Sydney/North Shore to the team's name and logo in some form, otherwise the name and colours would stay the same. You could do a few other minor tweaks, like change the circle logo to a shield design, ala our 60 year logo, to indicate a new direction, but a major rebranding isn't necessary.

Literally nobody has suggested any significant changes to the club's branding other than changing the name. . . All that has been suggested is you drop Manly and replace it with some variation of North/Northern Sydney/Shore/Beaches/etc. Now it sounds like you are fine with that, so you've been fighting phantoms this whole time.

You keep talking about how important development is, but in the past I've had quite a bit to do with junior sport and development in multiple sports including RL, and I've seen absolutely no evidence that kids are more inclined to support the local NRL club over any other NRL club simply because their club feeds into that NRL team's junior system. Most of the time kids and/or their families have already chosen which NRL club they support long before they choose to have a go at playing.
Sure that is an anecdote, but apart from some casual surveys that some juniors clubs do (which aren't of a large enough sample size to be valuable), I don't know where you could get any hard data on that particular point, not publicly at least.

BTW, using the shit show that has been the Dragon's slow erasure of the Steeler's existence and bare minimum commitment to Woolongong isn't a good look.

 

[reanimate]

North Shore Sea Eagles.

North Sydney and Manly Warringah are on Sydney's North Shore.The name is all encompassing and has a sort of "snob" value to it.
The benefit of having the title North in the name, brings in the North Sydney aspect.They get a slice of the geographical action.
Manly is still the Sea Eagles.
It is not a joint venture, nor a relocation, games played at Broookvale, but games against the likes of the Titans or Newcastle play at NSO.The nostalgia factor would bring a healthy crowd.
I dislike joint ventures and relocations period.
This means the Sea Eagles become a truly representative team for an area of 1.3m ?? Meaning fans of other teams can hate a lot more people.And this large number of Eagle's fans can say we don't give a rats rectum.
You probably won't grab the old traditional Bear's generation, but the younger ones are there for the fan pickings.
That an area with a population the size of North Sydney is neglected and left for the fumblers etc,is criminal.

The North Shore and Northern Beaches are two separate regions, the name should reflect both. People from the Beaches don't see themselves as being from the North Shore and vice versa. There's a lot of natural synergy between the two regions though; you can drive between the boundary of the North Shore and Northern Beaches in seconds, Manly could get from their training base and be at shopping centres like Chatswood Chase to do promotions in ~20 minutes and so on. The only roadblock is the continued existence of the Bears and it's killing RL in the area, that natural synergy needs to be allowed to take effect.

 

[taipan]

I'd play all the Sydney teams at NSO. Play the other teams at Brookvale.

No that would indicate the Bears as being dominant.You'd never get Brookvale Oval upgraded, and you;d lose Manly fans.
The benefits for calling it North Shore, the Nth Sydney area feels included and having a game at NSO adds to that.Else you get back to the Northern Eagles debacle by p*ssing off Manly fans.

 

[taipan]

The North Shore and Northern Beaches are two separate regions, the name should reflect both. People from the Beaches don't see themselves as being from the North Shore and vice versa. There's a lot of natural synergy between the two regions though; you can drive between the boundary of the North Shore and Northern Beaches in seconds, Manly could get from their training base and be at shopping centres like Chatswood Chase to do promotions in ~20 minutes and so on. The only roadblock is the continued existence of the Bears and it's killing RL in the area, that natural synergy needs to be allowed to take effect.

OK you are a Manly fan and I bow to your judgement and experience.The only descriptions I could see is East Coast Eagles or Sydney Eagles.
My frustration is to see such a large area, surrender to fumbles and give ru the pick of the crop.
No joint ventures or relocations full stop, and Peter Rugba V'Landys would agree with that.

 

[reanimate]

At this point who f**king cares about what Gallop did in the mid 00s.

For years now there's been nothing stopping Manly from spreading their wings except themselves.

Except the Bears as an entity and as a NSWRL district still exist, any investment Manly make in the area goes to benefit the Bears' partner club and stirs up old antagonistic relationships. The Bears still don't want us and the NRL hasn't offered any direction to suggest anything has changed. Those roadblocks just shouldn't exist anymore, 20 years of rot in the area is all the evidence you need.

Literally nobody has suggested any significant changes to the club's branding other than changing the name. . . All that has been suggested is you drop Manly and replace it with some variation of North/Northern Sydney/Shore/Beaches/etc. Now it sounds like you are fine with that, so you've been fighting phantoms this whole time.

Changing the name is changing the branding. The name 'Manly' is a part of the club's brand, people hated it going with the Northern Eagles and people will hate it going in favour of another generic Northern name. No Manly fan wants to see it dropped again and doing it to appease Bears fans is absolute folly, as they won't support a Sea Eagles team regardless of how generic a Northern name they adopt. Any potential future Sea Eagles fan in the area that could come from development won't be swung over a generic Northern name vs a name that features both Manly and the North Shore/Sydney. Once the old hatred dies away, future fans won't care and won't think anything about it, but Manly fans who support the club through that growth period will appreciate being able to keep Manly in the name.

You keep talking about how important development is, but in the past I've had quite a bit to do with junior sport and development in multiple sports including RL, and I've seen absolutely no evidence that kids are more inclined to support the local NRL club over any other NRL club simply because their club feeds into that NRL team's junior system. Most of the time kids and/or their families have already chosen which NRL club they support long before they choose to have a go at playing.
Sure that is an anecdote, but apart from some casual surveys that some juniors clubs do (which aren't of a large enough sample size to be valuable), I don't know where you could get any hard data on that particular point, not publicly at least.

BTW, using the shit show that has been the Dragon's slow erasure of the Steeler's existence and bare minimum commitment to Woolongong isn't a good look.

If the Dragons haven't done a good job in Wollongong, that's on them, my point was that they didn't have to give up their identity or take on some bland generic Southern identity to adopt the Steelers' territories.

 

[Jamberoo]

Are there any examples of any club changing / expanding their brand or location in Australia with success? Has changing from Easts to Sydney had a massive increase in their fan base. How did the Sydney Bulldogs go? Would the Northern Eagles have been a success if the two clubs had a happier merger? Certainly did not change anything down here for Footscray when they became that Western Bulldogs. Still the second smaller Vic AFL club. NorthMelbourne tried the same in the 90s and quickly changed back.
Is a name / geographical change it really expanding the brand, or is it just diluting and eroding the brand?
Manly can be a strong club again without a name change or shift in focus. NSO? Spare me - you guys go on and on about how bad it is watching RL at an oval, and are now advocating more games at an outdated oval. PVL was right - better, smaller, suburban stadiums is the way to go. He suggested 15K - 20k. That is the sweet spot. If demand outstrips supply then you create a situation where supporters have to become members to get a ticket, then become reserved seat holders. Manly need to push for $70m - $100m for a modern 7k - 10k stand. Knock down whatever stands and amenities are outdated and make sure that it is the best 16k stadium in Australia and full every week.
RL will thrive when it stops trying to compete with the AFL on crowds. The central stadium model which has seen crowds go up 50% overnight in Melbourne, Perth and Adelaide will never work in Sydney so stop trying. If everyone hates ANZ, just stop playing there - sell it to the AFL. SFS will do the job for GFs and SOO. Push the government for modern small stadiums. Keep it local. Keep it tribal. Make it passionate. Build upon RL’s strengths. Don’t worry about the size of crowd. They are only small if you compare them to AFL which is a worldwide freak. They are fine compared to most other sports in Australia and around the world. Who care if the Swans have bigger crowds? It doesn’t mean anything. 15k - 20k stadiums that are sold out every week will help clubs’ bottom lines and improve TV ratings.
Don’t bland out the game with name changes, bigger, emptier stadiums, or more second rate ovals like NSO.

 

[reanimate]

From Hornsby to North Sydney to Manly-Warringah and Northern Beaches should be all Manly’s to develop from juniors up. Ffs Norffs are never coming back.

I’d love to see the NRL develop a plan to assist Manly incorporate all this territory and get it working ASAP.

Then push for a central WSS type stadium linked by light rail to NS, Manly and Chatswood. Long term ideas I understand but make it so.

And I f**king hate Manly. But seriously what a piss poor business model club and NRL are running at the moment.

Exactly, I'd push for the exact same if another NRL team had ended 20 years ago and their old territory was just sitting there rotting and becoming a haven for AFL and Union as RL dies (AFL hammers the North Shore, they can definitely see the value in getting people from the North Shore into the fold). For example, if someone like the Sharks fell apart back then and it was clear they weren't going to be readmitted (at least in their old location), I'd be advocating for St George to develop their old territory and vice versa if the Dragons folded, or Roosters/Souths or whoever else who live right next door to each other and the succession plan for future RL development is blindingly obvious.

If an NRL team folds, or isn't readmitted, or fails for whatever reason, it shouldn't mean their territory sits there as an awkward no mans land, with their second division team shambling along and clinging to life by signing deals with the remaining NRL clubs, but that territory never officially becoming a part of the team that they sign a deal with.

 

[T-Boon]

Are there any examples of any club changing / expanding their brand or location in Australia with success? Has changing from Easts to Sydney had a massive increase in their fan base. How did the Sydney Bulldogs go? Would the Northern Eagles have been a success if the two clubs had a happier merger? Certainly did not change anything down here for Footscray when they became that Western Bulldogs. Still the second smaller Vic AFL club. NorthMelbourne tried the same in the 90s and quickly changed back.
Is a name / geographical change it really expanding the brand, or is it just diluting and eroding the brand?
Manly can be a strong club again without a name change or shift in focus. NSO? Spare me - you guys go on and on about how bad it is watching RL at an oval, and are now advocating more games at an outdated oval. PVL was right - better, smaller, suburban stadiums is the way to go. He suggested 15K - 20k. That is the sweet spot. If demand outstrips supply then you create a situation where supporters have to become members to get a ticket, then become reserved seat holders. Manly need to push for $70m - $100m for a modern 7k - 10k stand. Knock down whatever stands and amenities are outdated and make sure that it is the best 16k stadium in Australia and full every week.
RL will thrive when it stops trying to compete with the AFL on crowds. The central stadium model which has seen crowds go up 50% overnight in Melbourne, Perth and Adelaide will never work in Sydney so stop trying. If everyone hates ANZ, just stop playing there - sell it to the AFL. SFS will do the job for GFs and SOO. Push the government for modern small stadiums. Keep it local. Keep it tribal. Make it passionate. Build upon RL’s strengths. Don’t worry about the size of crowd. They are only small if you compare them to AFL which is a worldwide freak. They are fine compared to most other sports in Australia and around the world. Who care if the Swans have bigger crowds? It doesn’t mean anything. 15k - 20k stadiums that are sold out every week will help clubs’ bottom lines and improve TV ratings.
Don’t bland out the game with name changes, bigger, emptier stadiums, or more second rate ovals like NSO.

One problem with Manly as a location is it is so hard to get to or from that their fans do not even turn up to semi finals that Manly are in and I just dont think the Northern Suburbs will accept it if the home ground is at Brookvale.
NSO is a way better location which compensates plenty for the fact that it is a slightly inferior stadium to Brookvale. Despite what people say it would be possible to redevelop NSO. Some of those stands are less than 30 years old (the Bob Stand was moved there in the 80s) and heritage listing a hill? Give me a break.

 

[TheRam]

If I was the NRL I would say to Manly either change your name to Northern Suburbs Sea Eagles and play 8 games at NSO or else we will offer the Northern Suburbs Bears back provided they play 3 games at Brookvale Oval each season.

Or you could withhold $2m of their grant and spend it on junior development on the North Shore until they comply. There should be different STRICT and enforceable KPI's in all the NRL teams licences agreements. This is where the NRL really dropped the ball with the management of the game. There should be a carrot and a stick. So far the NRL's management style has been basically all carrots.

At this point in time V'Landys has the faith and the backing of all the clubs like no other administrator in RL since Arko and Canon. He needs to be smart now and know how to use it and lead the game into a future that wasn't possible just a few months ago.

The junior development of the game is paramount we get right for so many obvious reasons. He has already publicly stated that he is looking into it. So lets wait and see what he ends up doing. I hope he has a proper and full on comprehensive vision and strategy on how to get there that actually makes sense and yields results and not just throws money at it like all the other administrations have with no real tangible markers on results. In fact we have regressed in many areas across the game.

 

[Perth Red]

Or you could withhold $2m of their grant and spend it on junior development on the North Shore until they comply. There should be different STRICT and enforceable KPI's in all the NRL teams licences agreements. This is where the NRL really dropped the ball with the management of the game. There should be a carrot and a stick. So far the NRL's management style has been basically all carrots.

At this point in time V'Landys has the faith and the backing of all the clubs like no other administrator in RL since Arko and Canon. He needs to be smart now and know how to use it and lead the game into a future that wasn't possible just a few months ago.

The junior development of the game is paramount we get right for so many obvious reasons. He has already publicly stated that he is looking into it. So lets wait and see what he ends up doing. I hope he has a proper and full on comprehensive vision and strategy on how to get there that actually makes sense and yields results and not just throws money at it like all the other administrations have with no real tangible markers on results. In fact we have regressed in many areas across the game.

Richo had the right idea for NSW grassroots but the clubs torpedoed it, maybe Vlad the impaler will have more luck?